Is 64 classes still a good idea?

After seeing the ranger update I'm very confident in IS being able to make some great classes. However, I'm starting to doubt the 64 class model and would rather have around 10-12 well designed and unique classes that is also well balanced (in a group play setting).

64 different classes would be cool, but it will take a lot of work/time and money to make all those classes feel unique, have depth in its gameplay and be a viable option for PvP or PvE. Yes, the biggest hurdle is to create a good base archetype, but making the second archetype feel important and impactful will still be a HUGE hurdle and a big time investment. I'm convinced that IS could make it happen, but I'm not sure if it's worth it?

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Azherae

Depraved wrote: »

consultant wrote: »

Well for pvp even small changes to class has a huge impact. For example the cleric subclas could offer a ranger cleric a self heal, which hunters normally do not have so it could help rnagers over come a weakness so that is a plus.

Think a more problematic issue is the wide range of items that players are going to have access to. Which is all of them.

i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build

How can you 'disagree' with something like 'more variations makes it more problematic to balance?

Your reasoning doesn't make any sense either. The idea is that because devs sometimes miss an interaction between items and build, balance becomes harder. The thing you said isn't wrong, it's just like... missing the point entirely.

Depraved

Azherae wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

consultant wrote: »

Well for pvp even small changes to class has a huge impact. For example the cleric subclas could offer a ranger cleric a self heal, which hunters normally do not have so it could help rnagers over come a weakness so that is a plus.

Think a more problematic issue is the wide range of items that players are going to have access to. Which is all of them.

i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build

How can you 'disagree' with something like 'more variations makes it more problematic to balance?

Your reasoning doesn't make any sense either. The idea is that because devs sometimes miss an interaction between items and build, balance becomes harder. The thing you said isn't wrong, it's just like... missing the point entirely.

i was looking at it in a different way. to my understanding, he implied that every possible item (or item type) on every character will be too strong or too effective. i wasnt thinking that way. aoc isnt going for a perfect A or B balance.

for example, you arent going to use a tome with a rogue, or a huge ass shield. you could, maybe for rp reasons, but that doesnt mean it will be very effective, so it doesnt need to be brought up to be on par with a rogue wearing a dagger for example.

another example, the ranger could wear a magic wand or a staff, or even a shield, but then he would lose access to some of his abilities. so even though you could wear a staff or even a sword and shield, you will most likely stick to shortbows and longbows, unless you are okay not being able to use your abilities. additionally, a warrior or a cleric could wear a bow, but it wont be as good as using a different weapon.

i was also thinking about how you would pick a weapon based on the skills that the weapon give. for example, if you are a rogue and applying a bleed to your opponent makes your backstab ability do extra damage, and only daggers and swords have a skill that makes your opponent bleed, then you will wear a dagger or a sword. you wont wear a spear, or a staff. that is already balanced in itself.

basically, just because you can, doesnt mean you should.

SnowElf

To be honest, it's just 8 classes, combined in different ways. The OP measure is likely to come from toolkit balance, then class output performance. MMOs will always undergo maintenance and adjust classes as needed as we know of.

So yes, 64 different combinations is insanely complex, but from a developers perspective, it boils down to a base of 8 classes which they could focus on adjusting.

So a big question we have to be asking ourselves is.. How are the classes adjusted? If an archetype combo of Mage + Rogue exists, and the mage inherits a nerf...Does that mean the overall class did, or just that specific archetype mix so you can't vanish as a rogue, then blink as a mage right away after, or vice versa.

I do resonate with you though after that Ranger showcase... It really upped the bar on how classes will be performing in game. That was an incredibly awesome showcasing and it even has me worried for other classes, especially Mage.

Intrepid studios is ambitious though; As Steven continues to say, it's a projection of passion and ambition, and the lord's vision never wavers. Well, he says some of that, not all of it. Haha.

I think this Month's showcase that hits up PVP and also showcases Mage is going to be very fun... And it's going to seal the deal on whether or not I want to be a Mage or not. Really hoping for some epic visuals and graphically awesome stuff.

Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

another example, the ranger could wear a magic wand or a staff, or even a shield, but then he would lose access to some of his abilities.

I would actually expect many rangers to have a shield.

Your bow is equipped in your ranged slot, where as your shield is in your offhand slot. As such, you can absolutely have one of each equipped at the same time.

Now, you may not have access to the active abilities that require a bow or a shield if you do, but even the wiki says"Characters performing ranged abilities will switch to the ranged weapon, then can switch back to the melee weapon and shield or two-handed melee weapon.[70][72]"

Since we are likely to get at least some passive defense statistics from our shield, it would seem somewhat suboptimal for a ranger who is always using a bow to NOT equip a shield in their offhand.

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

another example, the ranger could wear a magic wand or a staff, or even a shield, but then he would lose access to some of his abilities.

I would actually expect many rangers to have a shield.

Your bow is equipped in your ranged slot, where as your shield is in your offhand slot. As such, you can absolutely have one of each equipped at the same time.

Now, you may not have access to the active abilities that require a bow or a shield if you do, but even the wiki says"Characters performing ranged abilities will switch to the ranged weapon, then can switch back to the melee weapon and shield or two-handed melee weapon.[70][72]"

Since we are likely to get at least some passive defense statistics from our shield, it would seem somewhat suboptimal for a ranger who is always using a bow to NOT equip a shield in their offhand.

i should have clarified. i meant using it as a main weapon for your build. we might or might not get a benefit from using a shield as a ranger or another class, as opposed to a 2 handed melee weapon, for example. my point was not equipping a weapon that doesnt give you any benefits.

another example would be equipping a robe that gives you magic damage when you have 0 magic damage on your kit and you want physical damage. you can equip it for sure, but it doesnt do anything for you, so the devs dont even have to think about balancing that.

Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

another example, the ranger could wear a magic wand or a staff, or even a shield, but then he would lose access to some of his abilities.

I would actually expect many rangers to have a shield.

Your bow is equipped in your ranged slot, where as your shield is in your offhand slot. As such, you can absolutely have one of each equipped at the same time.

Now, you may not have access to the active abilities that require a bow or a shield if you do, but even the wiki says"Characters performing ranged abilities will switch to the ranged weapon, then can switch back to the melee weapon and shield or two-handed melee weapon.[70][72]"

Since we are likely to get at least some passive defense statistics from our shield, it would seem somewhat suboptimal for a ranger who is always using a bow to NOT equip a shield in their offhand.

i should have clarified. i meant using it as a main weapon for your build. we might or might not get a benefit from using a shield as a ranger or another class, as opposed to a 2 handed melee weapon, for example. my point was not equipping a weapon that doesnt give you any benefits.

another example would be equipping a robe that gives you magic damage when you have 0 magic damage on your kit and you want physical damage. you can equip it for sure, but it doesnt do anything for you, so the devs dont even have to think about balancing that.

I think this comes to us perhaps having a different understanding of gear as it is likely to be in Ashes. Potentially, at least.

The way I expect gear to be is that base item types will have basic stats (cloth armor will provide magic defense, plate armor will provide physical defense and leather armor will provide a lesser amount of both, as an example). From there, gear will have basic effects added to it (an increase in damage to fire spells, an increase to damage with swords, and an increase to damage with bows, for example).

These effects could then effectively be put on any item of an appropriate slot.

It seems to me that you are looking at the above as being 9 items (cloth with fire, sword or bow damage increase, leather with fire, sword or bow increase, plate with fire, sword or bow increase), and are stating that someone that uses fire spells wouldn't need to have the item with an increase to bow damage balanced for them.

As an objective fact, I would have to agree with that last statement.

However, to me, the above is 6 items, not 9. It is cloth, leather and plate armor, and it is an increase in damage to fire spells, swords or bows. From there, it is simply a case of players being able to pick an armor type and a damage effect and place in it to one item slot.

To me, the base items (armor type) need to be balanced against each other, and the damage type increases need to be balanced against each other, but the individual items need not be balanced at all - because the components that make them up are balanced.

Now, if a player that uses a bow wants cloth armor in order to increase their magic damage, and they opt for cloth that increases fire spell damage, that is just user error. It is perfectly fine for this to be a lesser choice, the game doesn't need to balance for idiots like that (I'm quite sure you agree with this). However, that bow user has the option of cloth armor with additional bow damage.

Orym

I just wanna say that it would be awsome if you really become a "high priest" and not a cleric anymore when picking cleric + cleric for example. Everything from icon, abilities and apperance.
So yes 64 classes would be awsome but I think every class should have a strong identity to the base class aswell.

Xeeg

Depraved wrote: »

i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build

Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved.

Depraved

Xeeg wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build

Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved.

what?xD
so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o

rikardp98

Xeeg wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build

Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved.

Well that's not true, there will be damage meters.

Azherae

rikardp98 wrote: »

Xeeg wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build

Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved.

Well that's not true, there will be damage meters.

As long as no one acknowledges their existence it will be fine.

rikardp98

Azherae wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

Xeeg wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build

Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved.

Well that's not true, there will be damage meters.

As long as no one acknowledges their existence it will be fine.

Some people will acknowledge them and work and push their class go its limits thanks to damage meters, or more specifically combat logs

But yeah, most people will likely not acknowledge them or care to much about them.

SirChancelot

rikardp98 wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

Xeeg wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build

Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved.

Well that's not true, there will be damage meters.

As long as no one acknowledges their existence it will be fine.

Some people will acknowledge them and work and push their class go its limits thanks to damage meters, or more specifically combat logs

But yeah, most people will likely not acknowledge them or care to much about them.

I think they were referring to the fact that IS isn't going to make one, and doesn't allow for any addons.

Xeeg

Depraved wrote: »

Xeeg wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build

Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved.

what?xD
so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o

I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens.
Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character.

Dygz

consultant wrote: »

Well for pvp even small changes to class has a huge impact. For example the cleric subclas could offer a ranger cleric a self heal, which hunters normally do not have so it could help rnagers over come a weakness so that is a plus.

Think a more problematic issue is the wide range of items that players are going to have access to. Which is all of them.

Depraved wrote: »

i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build

Tank wielding a Wand is likely to be more problematic/challenging than a Tank wielding a Sword and Shield.
And will also likely be less effective since some Tank Active Skills will directly support Shields while no Tank Active Skills will directly support Wands. Hence, a Tank Wand wielder will be less effective in some ways.
Which is not the case for Augments and Active Skills.

So, I don't know what you think you were disagreeing with.

Depraved

Xeeg wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Xeeg wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build

Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved.

what?xD
so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o

I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens.
Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character.

those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD

also, no hard caps, already confirmed.

Leukael

So the augment system that creates the different classes are pretty simple. They aren't creating different full classes but rather slight variations of the same. The only concern I could see is balance both at launch and as the game evolves.

For clarity, augments are meant to bring the flavor of one archetype to another and in the result create slight niches. For example, one tank archetype might be better at dealing with a specific damage type and another would bring a type of utility (healing, buffs, etc.) to the fight. It isn't meant to complete reinvent the base class. You get a 2 or 3 signature abilities which can also be passives (if memory serves.)

The largest opportunities to ensure balance and future workload in maintaining balance is when they design it to consider the value carefully and then us to test (like in A2.) Given their current performance up until this point I'm fairly confident they will be able to do this.

Xeeg

Depraved wrote: »

Xeeg wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Xeeg wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build

Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved.

what?xD
so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o

I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens.
Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character.

those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD

also, no hard caps, already confirmed.

Ok sure, but the point still stands. You may not know that the +5 spell attack speed on this new item is less effective than the last +5 you got because of some soft cap. We aren’t privy to all the formulas. Maybe the +1 crit is WAY better and you have no idea.

Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

Xeeg wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Xeeg wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build

Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved.

what?xD
so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o

I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens.
Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character.

those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD

also, no hard caps, already confirmed.

No hard caps means soft caps will exist.

This is a great thing for those of us that will be using a combat tracker.

SirChancelot

Depraved wrote: »

Xeeg wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Xeeg wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build

Yeah but you won't know that it is less effective because there are no damage meters. Problem solved.

what?xD
so if need casting speed and i wear something that gives me attack speed instead, i wont know its bad without a damage meter? or if im a mage and my weapon gives me physical damage i wont know its bad? o-o

I doubt ashes is just going to have two modifiers “casting and attack/physical” there could be dozens.
Oh, and you didn’t know that there is a hard cast speed cap at 30% and you already passed it? Turns out you actually need a bit more crit instead. Guess there was no way to know that, and there is no way to tell if an item actually improved your character.

those were just examples...im not gonna type every single item effect there is xD

also, no hard caps, already confirmed.

No hard caps doesn't mean there won't be diminishing returns where it's not worth it after a point.

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