Mag7spy wrote: » I feel like this kind of point on saying what if they just did more and did everything better feels very imaginary. Levels is just an illusion anyway. Its kind of ironic you want to have all skills at a lower level which in a way is close to what if there was no leveling and you had everything and just did the content. but at the same time you are trying to argue for some extra extended leveling time.
Mag7spy wrote: » Nikr aren't you the same person that said you wanted to run a single dungeon non stop forever?
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Nikr aren't you the same person that said you wanted to run a single dungeon non stop forever? Really not sure what you're referencing here. Do you mean farming spots? If yes, then it's not "forever", it's until you get what you wanted from that spot. If not - then I don't think you're talking about me.
Mag7spy wrote: » You know the thread it was the pve one where noaani talked about going to multiple and you said you would just sit in one.
Mag7spy wrote: » I don't see how we can't the same thing as well. I dont' want level 50 content moved away with less mechanics / challenge to artificially increase the amount of leveling time.
Mag7spy wrote: » As Dygz content is opened up based on growth of nodes, that means a lot of the level 50 content might not even be open. This issue only gets worse over time if there is not enough space for that level of content. More focus on lower level content and increase area it takes by a large amount continues to make this issue worse.
Mag7spy wrote: » We would want the same thing if you wanted a bigger faction at lvl 50 and not a small one. As that would lead to less gameplay loops and people saying no content to do. If anything I already feel like there might be a lack of content but I will have to wait and see if that will end up being true or not. As i said before that means spending time on multiple chunks of lvl 15,20,25,30,35,40,45,45-49 on top of each location on the map as this is not a theme park rail roads mmorpg with instances. The win condition is when that person that rush to max lvl does not get bored of the game with plenty of content to do. It gives you a slice for the future that even if the most hardcore people keep enjoying things, everyone else will be able to have fun at their own pace.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » You know the thread it was the pve one where noaani talked about going to multiple and you said you would just sit in one. If by "forever" you mean "be there as long as you want", then, yes, that is what I want. To me that is the definition of grind. But to me this is no different from grinding caravans or instances or gathering. Whichever content you had in mind as your "endgame loop" would most likely be simply seen as grind by me, because I'm looking at it from the perspective of someone who'll be repeatedly doing said content, which is grind. Mag7spy wrote: » I don't see how we can't the same thing as well. I dont' want level 50 content moved away with less mechanics / challenge to artificially increase the amount of leveling time. You yourself have just said that you think we'll have all abilities by lvl35 (or there abouts). So how exactly would this content have to be less complex if people will already have all the tools by then? Mag7spy wrote: » As Dygz content is opened up based on growth of nodes, that means a lot of the level 50 content might not even be open. This issue only gets worse over time if there is not enough space for that level of content. More focus on lower level content and increase area it takes by a large amount continues to make this issue worse. Precisely. Which is why slower lvling would mean that there's more time for nodes to level up and provide people with proper level-equal content, instead of people grinding lvl30 mobs at lvl40++ because there's no lvl5 nodes around, let alone metros. Mag7spy wrote: » We would want the same thing if you wanted a bigger faction at lvl 50 and not a small one. As that would lead to less gameplay loops and people saying no content to do. If anything I already feel like there might be a lack of content but I will have to wait and see if that will end up being true or not. As i said before that means spending time on multiple chunks of lvl 15,20,25,30,35,40,45,45-49 on top of each location on the map as this is not a theme park rail roads mmorpg with instances. The win condition is when that person that rush to max lvl does not get bored of the game with plenty of content to do. It gives you a slice for the future that even if the most hardcore people keep enjoying things, everyone else will be able to have fun at their own pace. People who rush to max lvl know the consequence of their actions. Intrepid would simply need to advertise their game properly. Just say "this is not Lost Ark, so you won't get max lvl in 4h and majority of content won't be at that max lvl". If anything this is already the case, because Steven's been saying that "leveling is rewarding and enjoyable". You said yourself, those who rush lvls will have a ton of other content to do at max lvl. The same thing I've said already as well.
Mag7spy wrote: » That was based off me thinking augments were 35 so you most likely won't have all abilities at lvl 25. Lets say based on what i was saying though you had all abilities at 25-35 my point was augments will further change your abilities on top of gear + other progression. So again you won't have all the tools.
Mag7spy wrote: » This is the biggest issue with my point is you want a mmorpg that has most of its content in leveling. That is the biggest red flag for 0 reason. I could write a lot on that but I'll have to say not o having a lack of content at max level lmao.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » That was based off me thinking augments were 35 so you most likely won't have all abilities at lvl 25. Lets say based on what i was saying though you had all abilities at 25-35 my point was augments will further change your abilities on top of gear + other progression. So again you won't have all the tools. I forget where you stand on the "augments drastically change your abilties" debacle. Cause this seems to imply that you're on the "they do" side. If you are then I understand your point, but simply disagree. Mag7spy wrote: » This is the biggest issue with my point is you want a mmorpg that has most of its content in leveling. That is the biggest red flag for 0 reason. I could write a lot on that but I'll have to say not o having a lack of content at max level lmao. Again, I want this on release, because the game will inevitably become end-heavy in the long run. If majority of people do not reach the max lvl content (let alone clear it fully) before Intrepid can release their first update (supposedly just a few months btw) - there's no red flags. And those leveling players won't complain that the game is shit because the leveling process is better than all the other games, exactly because the leveling process is more meaningful than simply "a barrier before beginning the real game".
Mag7spy wrote: » Kilion wrote: » Usually the idea behind shortening the time span necessary to reach max level seems to be related to repetitive, non-engaging gameplay with no significance beyond teaching you the core mechanics of the game. Furthermore there even is the possibility of making some of the "low level tasks" much easier on a higher level than they are on a lower level. e.g. Flying around in WoW to farm your mining skill up to max level is substantially faster than running around with your mount, making detours to find hopefully one more deposit to get to the next threshold. From what I can tell Ashes will not have too many of these "high level benefits". Even higher level character require resources found in lower level zones, zones in general aren't fully isolated from one another where you just won't run into players of a certain level in a specific place and most importantly: things in Ashes take more time. Goods take more time to be gathered and transported, Nodes take time to grow, strong communities with social bonds and trust take time to form and it takes more time to learn about the far more complex systems of Ashes. So really there would be no benefit to rush players through the levels when everything else moves at a much slower pace. In my opinion there wouldn't be an issue to say it should take around 300 hours to reach max level (That would be 4 months of playing 3 hours 6 days a week) especially since even lower level characters contribute significantly to the growth and maintenance of their Nodes, meaning being slower than others is not bad either. AoC isn't rushing people through levels since they are going for more traditional time. My issue is people will say at 300 hours or even 500 hours it should be longer. And those same people won't be working and that is what they are basing their desire off. AoC will have power benefits in regards to levels on top of pvp (ie you don't get your full class till lvl 35, augment system changing how your skill work and increasing their power is tied to your level in their ranger show case you can also see this). My issue will always be people asking to unreasonable leveling times and expecting content around that which reduces content that could be at max level. (That means creating a lot of content players won't ever experience or if they do they will be overleveled) And then you get the people saying there is nothing to do at max level from a pve perspective the same ones that no lifed the game and wanted a longer leveling experience.
Kilion wrote: » Usually the idea behind shortening the time span necessary to reach max level seems to be related to repetitive, non-engaging gameplay with no significance beyond teaching you the core mechanics of the game. Furthermore there even is the possibility of making some of the "low level tasks" much easier on a higher level than they are on a lower level. e.g. Flying around in WoW to farm your mining skill up to max level is substantially faster than running around with your mount, making detours to find hopefully one more deposit to get to the next threshold. From what I can tell Ashes will not have too many of these "high level benefits". Even higher level character require resources found in lower level zones, zones in general aren't fully isolated from one another where you just won't run into players of a certain level in a specific place and most importantly: things in Ashes take more time. Goods take more time to be gathered and transported, Nodes take time to grow, strong communities with social bonds and trust take time to form and it takes more time to learn about the far more complex systems of Ashes. So really there would be no benefit to rush players through the levels when everything else moves at a much slower pace. In my opinion there wouldn't be an issue to say it should take around 300 hours to reach max level (That would be 4 months of playing 3 hours 6 days a week) especially since even lower level characters contribute significantly to the growth and maintenance of their Nodes, meaning being slower than others is not bad either.
Kilion wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Kilion wrote: » Usually the idea behind shortening the time span necessary to reach max level seems to be related to repetitive, non-engaging gameplay with no significance beyond teaching you the core mechanics of the game. Furthermore there even is the possibility of making some of the "low level tasks" much easier on a higher level than they are on a lower level. e.g. Flying around in WoW to farm your mining skill up to max level is substantially faster than running around with your mount, making detours to find hopefully one more deposit to get to the next threshold. From what I can tell Ashes will not have too many of these "high level benefits". Even higher level character require resources found in lower level zones, zones in general aren't fully isolated from one another where you just won't run into players of a certain level in a specific place and most importantly: things in Ashes take more time. Goods take more time to be gathered and transported, Nodes take time to grow, strong communities with social bonds and trust take time to form and it takes more time to learn about the far more complex systems of Ashes. So really there would be no benefit to rush players through the levels when everything else moves at a much slower pace. In my opinion there wouldn't be an issue to say it should take around 300 hours to reach max level (That would be 4 months of playing 3 hours 6 days a week) especially since even lower level characters contribute significantly to the growth and maintenance of their Nodes, meaning being slower than others is not bad either. AoC isn't rushing people through levels since they are going for more traditional time. My issue is people will say at 300 hours or even 500 hours it should be longer. And those same people won't be working and that is what they are basing their desire off. AoC will have power benefits in regards to levels on top of pvp (ie you don't get your full class till lvl 35, augment system changing how your skill work and increasing their power is tied to your level in their ranger show case you can also see this). My issue will always be people asking to unreasonable leveling times and expecting content around that which reduces content that could be at max level. (That means creating a lot of content players won't ever experience or if they do they will be overleveled) And then you get the people saying there is nothing to do at max level from a pve perspective the same ones that no lifed the game and wanted a longer leveling experience. I get it and I agree, there are limits to how long this can be stretched. One limitation is as you said, finding "a resonable time frame" to reach max level. I'll exclude the 2-hours-per-week casuals here, but I think something around 300 hours is within the frame of reasonable assumption, it can be done by playing 3 hours on Saturday and Sunday (or 2 hours on Fr, Sa & Su). That seems okay for a game that aspires to keep players around for years and it means they can have a continuously changing experience, unlocking more and more new, interesting content and options throughout that year. Might just be me, but that sounds like something I'd be willing to pay 15$ a month (or 1,75$ per hour) for. I don't see any need to slow it down further, the core systems of Ashes are more complex than in other games but learning about them is definitely possible within that example of a year, so stretiching it further no longer benefits the the gameloop IMO. The second limitation I see on what constitutes a reasonable timeframe to reach max level is the development "problems". The issue with quests for lower level players is that they at least in most games are one-way content. You can make 50 different story archs for a level 10 player, but when it for example takes just 25 of those to get to level 20, the rest of the story archs will not be played by anyone. On the other hand, once someone reaches max level, they will stay there (duh ) which increases the likelihood of them eventually doing a quest aimed at max level players. So if the leveling processes is stretched too far, Intrepid has to produce a ton of content a significant portion of their player won't ever see, which can turn into a big waste of resources and talent on part of the studio. Though I have to admit, here the policies around scaling enemies in story arcs and such is something I am not too familiar with, it would be cool to have low level quests not turn "pointless". Anyways, I think 280-310 hours is an acceptable time frame to reach max level for the above mentioned reasons.
Diamaht wrote: » Somewhere around two to three months is fine. 45 days is a bit short, but that's also putting in 4 to 5 hours a day, every day, which is a hell of a grind for people who have jobs. I think their target is fine. If it is months, they do have to make sure it's interesting along the way. Doubling that would be too much. If hard core grinding, in that case, takes 3 months, then the average player might take 5 or 6. Not sure what population we'd have left after a year with those rates, and it would be hard to attract new players if they see too large of a mountain in front of them.
