Are Rogues Viable in AoC

Stealth does not render a player completely invisible.

There will be indicators that can help players "feel out" where stealthed individuals may be.[3]
There will also be utility skills that will reveal stealthed players, such as on the Ranger archetype.[4][5][6]
Certain NPCs can also see through stealth.[4]
Stealth augments from the Rogue secondary archetype will incorporate stealth modifiers into a class' primary skills.[5]
Stealth is 100% an option in the game. It's not going to render yourself or the individual who uses the stealth completely obscured. You're still going to be able to identify- there's going to be utility skills that can reveal stealth from a PvP perspective. There's going to be perceptions that certain NPCs have that can see through stealth, like Tremor Sense or Life Sense. There are elements of mechanics that relate to stealth and how it is balanced in the game. It's not going to be similar to stealth that's been found in other games where the target is rendered completely invisible- they can make it past every enemy NPC or monster: they can use stealth at all times. These are elements that is a tit for tat. These are components of class-kits that are going to have corresponding counters as it relates to other classes as well.[4] – Steven Sharif

My question is , will Rogues be viable in AoC? It would seem to me that stealth is all a Rogue really has, along with a good opening attack and some extra evade. If the stealth is a "Shimmer" will it be good enough to get close, especially with sight detections from Rangers and Mages.

If a Rogues stealth (his main defense) is too easy to sniff out, what makes him better than just being a worse version of a fighter?

Do you believe or would you be opposed to if a Rogue Doubled down on the class and was a "Assassin" that he should then be allowed full Stealth.

This would make it where you would only have full stealth if you chose both Rogue as Primary and Secondary classes, and no other lass would be able to obtain full stealth.

I know there are many Stealth Threads and we know almost nothing about the Rogue, that being said this is a fundamental Skill that if it doesn't function well the class is Gimp from the get go.

Rogues are always a very controversial class, as there is a Love , Hate and rarely anything in between.

So what are your thoughts?

Should 1 class be able to have full stealth?

Will you play a Rogue if the stealth is sub par and easily detectable making it where you constantly are being seen?

And if you didn't want full stealth, what ability would you suggest to help the Rogue fulfill his role?

Looking forward to your comments thank you.

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Comments

Spif

For Vaknar, Rogue pillars IMO:

Stealth
Melee combat
Backstab/positionals/stealth-attack bonus
Poisons
Misdirection (threat manipulation in PvE)
Disables
Mobility/Evasion
Pickpocket/lockpick

If I had to pick 3 augment schools, they would be: Stealth, Poisons and Trickery (a combo of misdirection and disables)

Stealth itself can be balanced. Rogues could have a predator-like skill that works all the time. IE a stealth stance (with the tradeoff of losing something from another stance and/or a continuous mana/stamina drain and/or slower movement) that can be improved with skill points. Then give them cooldown abilities that can be used in stealth-stance that give them true short term invisibility to close the gap or get away.

PvE balance of stealth stance would be to lower mob aggro radius out of combat. In combat the stance could buff evasion/dodge

Mag7spy

@Vaknar my two cents

I've noticed many familiar archetypes among rogues, yet I'm inclined towards something more captivating. For me, the core elements of a rogue would include:

Shadow Magic - (Stealth, mobility, misdirection, enhancement)
Poisons - (Debuffs, DoTs, buffs)
Dueler - (high damage focus, CC, executions)

Overall, injecting a touch of fantasy could elevate rogues, granting them a commanding presence beyond the typical invisibility and backstab maneuvers.

The utilization of shadow magic affords them mastery over darkness, facilitating stealthy engagements. Beyond mere concealment, it imbues them with heightened mobility, enabling swift movements to close in on targets or vanish from sight in moments. This versatility extends to misdirection tactics, whether against mobs or players. Picture a shadowy doppelgänger, vanishing in a single strike, masquerading as the player until approached, revealing its illusory nature. Traditional techniques like backstabbing or striking from stealth to augment attack damage remain pivotal in bolstering their offensive prowess.

Poisons serve as a cornerstone for rogues, typically inducing debilitating effects over time. Expanding upon this, I envision a nuanced playstyle, intertwining various DoTs with debuffs that hinder healing or reduce skill efficiency. An intriguing twist lies in leveraging poisons to not only weaken foes but also bolster the rogue, albeit at a cost. This dual-edged approach, offering increased damage / or other effects at the expense of vulnerability or other penalties, introduces strategic depth, empowering the rogue to adapt to diverse scenarios.

The dueler archetype embodies a focus on explosive damage alongside crowd control techniques, emphasizing cunning over brute force in one-on-one encounters. Employing guile and deceit, they seize upon underhanded tactics to secure victory, prioritizing swift executions over fair fights. Such tactics may even grant advantages upon dispatching foes with specific skills, perpetuating their lethal streak.

TheHiddenDaggerInn

Watching a video while making content, I stumbled across Steven saying stealth was going to be their primary way to attack,

Vaknar wrote: »

OP used a few quotes from the wiki, so I'll go ahead and drop those here!

Rogues: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Rogue
Stealth: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Stealth
I'd like to add a question for OP and the folks of this thread; It seems like some peoples' fantasy or perception of what a Rogue should be is primarily, if not entirely focused on stealth. Is that what you prefer in your Rogue classes and archetypes in MMORPGs? Do you think the archetype itself should be centered around stealth, stealth should be just a feature, or maybe you'd like to build either way with skill trees, augments, etc?

TheHiddenDaggerInn

After playing Dark age of Camelot, and war hammer online, to me rogues very much rely on stealth mechanics. This is important because it’s all they have being lightly armored and being able to deliver that big opener. If we can only hit a target 50% of the time and running for our lives the other half and even a less % when the groups are bigger and more eyes are looking. It also leads into a mini game of sorts, rogues looking for other rogues . Each group has their lookouts. And there was no greater adrenaline rush then walking by an enemy rogue and knowing you both saw each other. So yes stealth is very important to me personally. It has a long standing history behind it, we have changed enough things over time, this shouldn’t be one of them.

TheHiddenDaggerInn

And let me climb castle walls!

Mag7spy

TheHiddenDaggerInn

Mag7spy wrote: »

Are you suggesting that rogues wear heavy armor? I’m confused

TheHiddenDaggerInn

Also I will add that having characters that can stealth adds an element of the unknown to the world, you never know who is watching you. It comes down to either you love them or hate them. I’ve played mages, healers, tanks and plenty of rogues in my days. They’re a time tested class and this game has many old school elements, leave this one alone. That’s why their is class mechanics to help detect stealth, by at least to known classes. So if you are still having issues, you’re not using those abilities and have no counter rogues to protect/attack healers. You should be scared if you think a rogue is around, that’s the fun of it.

Mag7spy

ILLPeonU wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Are you suggesting that rogues wear heavy armor? I’m confused

You should condense all your post into one lol.

I'm pointing out any class can use any armor, so yes rogues can use heavy armour.

TheHiddenDaggerInn

Mag7spy wrote: »

ILLPeonU wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Are you suggesting that rogues wear heavy armor? I’m confused

You should condense all your post into one lol.

I'm pointing out any class can use any armor, so yes rogues can use heavy armour.

I guess if you want to, but then that really isn’t a traditional rogue, beats the purpose of a highly dexterous, evading specialist, nimble and quick. Hard to imagine that in plate.

Mag7spy

ILLPeonU wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

ILLPeonU wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Are you suggesting that rogues wear heavy armor? I’m confused

You should condense all your post into one lol.

I'm pointing out any class can use any armor, so yes rogues can use heavy armour.

I guess if you want to, but then that really isn’t a traditional rogue, beats the purpose of a highly dexterous, evading specialist, nimble and quick. Hard to imagine that in plate.

But the thing is everyone is free to make their own style and fantasy. I've not heard the type of armour effects your dodge, but gives different resistances to damage types.

But either way that is how AoC works you can have any armour or weapon on any class. Of course if you are a ranger you will need to be using a bow more than likely.

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