About the Skins/Cosmetics/Transmog policy in AOC

Stop me if I've misunderstood this subject, but I think the skins/commetics policy is going in the wrong direction.

In my opinion, skins cosmetics should be a modification of existing skins (armor, weapons etc.) without making the original item unrecognizable (total transmog).

In my opinion, a player's appearance should remain indicative of the equipment he wears. And I think that all these skins with no level restriction and skins that allow you to copy the appearance of another item should not exist.

On the other hand, I'm all for costumes. If some people like to strut their stuff in extravagant costumes, then there needs to be a special fashionista PvP Off zone where they can show off their finds.

I know that many of you will disagree, and I'm just sharing my humble opinion.

It seems that there will be an icon showing the armor category of opponent, I don't think it's enough.

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Myosotys

Taerrik wrote: »

What I wear is part of my identity.

Also, I get the feeling from reading comments from some people that they expect RPers to be in character 100% of the time, which maybe a portion of them do, but I dont. I only RP with a handful of people at a time in story campaigns of our own making. I very rarely do walk up open world spontaneous RP, can be fun, and many people like that, but its my character, my story, I do what I want.

When I pvp, I pvp
When I pve grind, I pve grind
When I want to RP, I RP

And in each case, I want to look like however I want to look like, and quite honestly that doesnt have to be the concern of anyone else if they dont want it to be.

I've used mods for my own look and even spell animations in games for years, and the only people I am concerned with seeing me how I see myself, are the people I play with. The same will hold true with cosmetics in ashes, which I will use until a stable moding community grows here. (To be fair, the spell effects I've seen from Intrepid in these monthly showcases are pretty badass, I doubt I will want to mod them)

However I picture my character in whatever he is doing, is how I will make him look.

I could care less how someone else sees me if they dont want to see what I see.

It looks fair.

Dygz

Myosotys wrote: »

In this case, a video game being a virtual world, it's all illusion and appearance, and nothing is relevant. But rather than imagining ourselves evolving in nothingness, we can take AOC's parallel reality into consideration and present our point of view.

Only thing relevant is that on Verra illusions are common. People can use them almost immediately after stepping through the Portal. And lots f people will be using them.

You could also present the point of view that gods don’t exist, but…
On Verra, gods are objectively real.

Dygz

Myosotys wrote: »

Here I don't get you, because your RP char is already the orignal one without cosmetics. Cosmetics is kind of RP in the RP. No ?

Nope.
RP in the RP would be pointing to a chair where there is clearly no dress nearby and claiming that a dress exists on the chair which everyone can actually see.
And then when people say it must be invisible, the claim is that it is very clearly viable on the chair. Then someone claims to have donned that dress, even though other players cannot actually see a dress.

Cosmetics can be seen by other players.
Effectively they are visible, supernatural illusions that mask natural appearances.
That’s not RP in the RP.
That’s pretty mush the baseline functionality of that High Magic Fantasy setting.

Myosotys

Dygz wrote: »

Myosotys wrote: »

Here I don't get you, because your RP char is already the orignal one without cosmetics. Cosmetics is kind of RP in the RP. No ?

Nope.
RP in the RP would be pointing to a chair where there is clearly no dress nearby and claiming that a dress exists on the chair which everyone can actually see.
And then when people say it must be invisible, the claim is that it is very clearly viable on the chair. Then someone claims to have donned that dress, even though other players cannot actually see a dress.

Cosmetics can be seen by other players.
Effectively they are visible, supernatural illusions that mask natural appearances.
That’s not RP in the RP.
That’s pretty mush the baseline functionality of that High Magic Fantasy setting.

A simple cosmetic that slightly modifies the appearance of your gear can be approached in a classic RP manner. We agree on that. I assume that a Cosmetic/Skin has no influence on the role you play in the game's virtual reality.

But regarding transmog, either there's absolutely nothing RP about it, or with a bit of imagination it can be way to RP within RP insofar as you go beyond the virtual reality imposed by the game's frameworks via illusions.

daveywavey

Is there any in-game reason to want this change, other than 'making it easier for me to kill people/choose who to kill'?

Myosotys

daveywavey wrote: »

Is there any in-game reason to want this change, other than 'making it easier for me to kill people/choose who to kill'?

Not « easier », simply « fair ».

daveywavey

Myosotys wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Is there any in-game reason to want this change, other than 'making it easier for me to kill people/choose who to kill'?

Not « easier », simply « fair ».

How is it fairer? Everyone can use cosmetics, since there will be in-game ones too. Everyone's in the same boat.

Myosotys

daveywavey wrote: »

Myosotys wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Is there any in-game reason to want this change, other than 'making it easier for me to kill people/choose who to kill'?

Not « easier », simply « fair ».

How is it fairer? Everyone can use cosmetics, since there will be in-game ones too. Everyone's in the same boat.

The use of transmog is a matter of choice and serves aesthetic purposes. Transmog is not a skill for optimizing your character in PvP, like camouflage or illusion.
So it's not fair if the transmog user has a PvP advantage over the non-user, as the transmorg is diverted from its main purpose.

So a small button to deactivate the transmorg would be ideal.

Raven016

Myosotys wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Myosotys wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Is there any in-game reason to want this change, other than 'making it easier for me to kill people/choose who to kill'?

Not « easier », simply « fair ».

How is it fairer? Everyone can use cosmetics, since there will be in-game ones too. Everyone's in the same boat.

The use of transmog is a matter of choice and serves aesthetic purposes. Transmog is not a skill for optimizing your character in PvP, like camouflage or illusion.
So it's not fair if the transmog user has a PvP advantage over the non-user, as the transmorg is diverted from its main purpose.

So a small button to deactivate the transmorg would be ideal.

Makes sense. But I doubt Steven will do that. He will rather increase the font size to help players read relevant info about the opponent.

Kilion

Raven016 wrote: »

Myosotys wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Myosotys wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Is there any in-game reason to want this change, other than 'making it easier for me to kill people/choose who to kill'?

Not « easier », simply « fair ».

How is it fairer? Everyone can use cosmetics, since there will be in-game ones too. Everyone's in the same boat.

The use of transmog is a matter of choice and serves aesthetic purposes. Transmog is not a skill for optimizing your character in PvP, like camouflage or illusion.
So it's not fair if the transmog user has a PvP advantage over the non-user, as the transmorg is diverted from its main purpose.

So a small button to deactivate the transmorg would be ideal.

Makes sense. But I doubt Steven will do that. He will rather increase the font size to help players read relevant info about the opponent.

I have hope that changes will be made depending on the magnitude of influence cosmetics will have on PvP during Alpha 2. For that, I might suggest a couple of tests:

organize a few dedicated PvP events and collect data on individals performance while cosmetics are disabled.
Select a few individuals who have participated and shown a fairly stable performance. It does not matter whether or not the performance is good or bad as long as it is consistent.
Initiate a second round of PvP where the selected player are not allowed to use cosmetics & skins and collect their performance data again.
In the third and final round everyone gets costmetics and once again the perfomance data is being collected.

By the end of the process Intrepid should be able to tell with some reasonable certainty how cosmetics influences the perfomance of someone in PvP.
This is obviously a tedious process but I don't see how else Intrepid should be able to assess the influence otherwise. And Alpha 2 is being held exactly for such purposes and from all I heard exactly that kind of process made Baldurs Gate 3 the epic game it is now, too.

So maybe the best we can do at this stage is voice our concerns and find ways for Intrepid to test the validity of these concerns.

Sweatycup

People are more likely to wear a hard to get or grindy set they can get than wear a skin. Also in a open pvp game in my experience of mmo’s with skins bought there will be a decent size of the player base who targets people who wear bought skins because they hate bought skins. Some will even go out their way to try to ruin your day. In a game that prides itself on making things a grind and achievement to get the best things i do not believe most of the player base would want to skin those items. And the cool sets dont start late in the game. You wouldnt know anyways till you engage a player because without stalking someone and watching them play you wouldnt know what their personal damage type was or even unambiguous class in some scenarios. This might make you fight someone who is geared to resist your damage and or be able to do more damage to you without your knowing. Do you want to be able to inspect people before hand? Ive said it before griefers going to grief.

Myosotys

Kilion wrote: »

Raven016 wrote: »

Myosotys wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Myosotys wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Is there any in-game reason to want this change, other than 'making it easier for me to kill people/choose who to kill'?

Not « easier », simply « fair ».

How is it fairer? Everyone can use cosmetics, since there will be in-game ones too. Everyone's in the same boat.

The use of transmog is a matter of choice and serves aesthetic purposes. Transmog is not a skill for optimizing your character in PvP, like camouflage or illusion.
So it's not fair if the transmog user has a PvP advantage over the non-user, as the transmorg is diverted from its main purpose.

So a small button to deactivate the transmorg would be ideal.

Makes sense. But I doubt Steven will do that. He will rather increase the font size to help players read relevant info about the opponent.

I have hope that changes will be made depending on the magnitude of influence cosmetics will have on PvP during Alpha 2. For that, I might suggest a couple of tests:
organize a few dedicated PvP events and collect data on individals performance while cosmetics are disabled.

Select a few individuals who have participated and shown a fairly stable performance. It does not matter whether or not the performance is good or bad as long as it is consistent.

Initiate a second round of PvP where the selected player are not allowed to use cosmetics & skins and collect their performance data again.

In the third and final round everyone gets costmetics and once again the perfomance data is being collected.

By the end of the process Intrepid should be able to tell with some reasonable certainty how cosmetics influences the perfomance of someone in PvP.
This is obviously a tedious process but I don't see how else Intrepid should be able to assess the influence otherwise. And Alpha 2 is being held exactly for such purposes and from all I heard exactly that kind of process made Baldurs Gate 3 the epic game it is now, too.

So maybe the best we can do at this stage is voice our concerns and find ways for Intrepid to test the validity of these concerns.

I agree on everything. The idea is not to fool people who have spent a fortune on cosmetics.

In truth, I don't give a damn about cosmetics, all I'm asking for is consistency. By consistency, I mean that each cosmetic item should be a variant of existing gear parts.

The real problem is transmog, not cosmetics, because I'm sure Intrepid isn't going to do just anything by skinning swords into daggers or armor into robes.

If transmog allows you to transform yourself into anything, then it needs to become a game skill with a precise framework and precise rules.

PS: About BG3, I really didn't get into the game. I bought the early access at the very beginning and when the game came out I already didn't want to play anymore.

Raven016

Myosotys wrote: »

The real problem is transmog, not cosmetics, because I'm sure Intrepid isn't going to do just anything by skinning swords into daggers or armor into dresses.

If transmog allows you to transform yourself into anything, then it needs to become a game skill with a precise framework and precise rules.

True, during a caravan defense, I can imagine players joining during the event and you will have to check who joined and how to deal with the new opponent.
If the fight in AoC does not need fast reaction, maybe the UI will show clearly who is your target.

Not sure how big the confusion can be if more/all opponents have the same transmog.
You will see 10 bandits in black dress, with hoods, and you will not know who is the healer, who is the dagger fighter...

Raven016

Will players be able to change how they look while being flagged/in combat?

Songcaller

Transmog is same item to same item. Cosmetics can be placed on any item. It will take a special kind of vigilance to identify the support classes amidst the fights.

Myosotys

I'm reviving this topic because I saw a new post about transmog.

I was wondering if there was any new information on INTREPID's policy on skins, cosmetics, transmog?

Kilion

I didn't read anything new on the matter but the Wiki had a entry on it that I wasn't aware of until Nikr linked it, which is about appearance slots, there it seems that one of the ideas I had pointed to on here has already been considered by Intrepid since 2020, which is to have gear be forcefully be set back to "default" - basically disabling all transmorgs and skin - under certain conditions. That entry however referred to sieges, so it might mean that we will in open world PvP skins and transmorg are still "on" while during sieges it is not.

And I kind of get the idea, checking for armor icons during a 500 VS 500 battle or 250VS 250 is asking a lot, but a very important Caravan could also see 100 players fighting and you won't click through them all to know where your next AOE will cause the most damage amongst your enemies.

Which leads me to my new "best argument against transmorg in objective based PvP": Players who play primarily by using AOE in larger scale battles will not click on every single enemy to know their armor type and then cast their AoE spell accordingly, they do not have the time for that, PvP is fast paced, enemies are constantly on the move and decision ought to be made quickly.

Therefore unless we want to see AoE spells be used randomly on the battlefield, transmorg probably needs to be disabled in all types of objective based PvP. This would mean that e.g. when you opt in as an attacker or defender on a caravan the moment you pick a side, the transmorg goes off.

Of course the alternative to this remains that light armor skins can only be put on light armor, axes can only transmorg into other axes and so on.

tautau

Ya know, if you want to start a fight with someone in 'real life', you really don't know if they have a black belt in martial arts, are a fat lazy accountant, used to box professionally, or have no idea how to fight. Right?

So, I think it is just fine in-game to not be able to see what kind of armor they are wearing if they have a fancy costume on their toon.

Risk and reward, be careful who you start a fight with, you just never know....

Kilion

tautau wrote: »

Ya know, if you want to start a fight with someone in 'real life', you really don't know if they have a black belt in martial arts, are a fat lazy accountant, used to box professionally, or have no idea how to fight. Right?

So, I think it is just fine in-game to not be able to see what kind of armor they are wearing if they have a fancy costume on their toon.

Risk and reward, be careful who you start a fight with, you just never know....

If you don't mind, let's go through a few things with quick Yes/No answers. Should there be (in your opinion):

Level display of other characters independent of there current flagging
No information of the level as soon as someone is flagged as part of an enemy faction
No information on the primary equipped armor type someone is wearing (Intrepid suggests this as a buff icon to my knowledge)
Passive talent tree option to reveal the level of other characters
Passive talent tree option to reveal the primarily equipped armor type of other characters
Passive talent tree option to reveal the highest resistance of a mob
Passive talent tree option to reveal the lowest resistance of a mob or character

daveywavey

Kilion wrote: »

If you don't mind, let's go through a few things with quick Yes/No answers. Should there be (in your opinion):

- Level display of other characters independent of there current flagging - IS FINE
I'm happy with Level being shown, as that's a progression achievement, sort of like a status symbol.

- No information of the level as soon as someone is flagged as part of an enemy faction - I'D BE OK WITH THIS

- No information on the primary equipped armor type someone is wearing (Intrepid suggests this as a buff icon to my knowledge) - NO INFO PLEASE
- Passive talent tree option to reveal the level of other characters - NO THANKS
- Passive talent tree option to reveal the primarily equipped armor type of other characters - NO THANKS

These two I'd rather get from an in-game source like a Science-Node Library or something, that gives info on the creatures in its and the surrounding nodes:
- Passive talent tree option to reveal the highest resistance of a mob - NO THANKS
- Passive talent tree option to reveal the lowest resistance of a mob or character - NO THANKS

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