Bard, the mana management specialist.

I wanted to open a topic on the Bard given the multiple mentions of Bard being responsible for mana management in the recent Fighter showcase.

There's a discussion I wanted to open up focused on countering mana "whack a mole" and making it so Bard isn't just a continuous source of free mana and that protecting your Bard and countering debilitating effects that would impede the Bard's ability to give resources will be just as important as defending your Cleric, as well as countering anti-healing mechanics such as defile(although I don't know if Intrepid will use the word defile specifically)

In most games that have PvP I've experienced that also have a healer there's always an ability to defile the healer, a good example of this is in Elder Scrolls Online, they have skills that will cause a defilement debilitation on the healer that strips away a percentage of the healing received, this counters healers being able to sustain players on the field for an absurd amount of time and creates windows where players can wipe out healers who would normally be able to sustain through absurd amounts of damage(see ChibiBree survival during the caravan showcase), the current Fighter would be able to create stacks of healing reduction to counter the Cleric. Rock, Paper, Scissors.

The reason I bring up the Cleric and defile is because the Bard(as much as I want it to be OP) needs to have a Rock to it's Scissors. The Bard will absolutely need a defile debilitate effect that reduces the amount of mana that it gives to other players as well as itself. I bring this up now because Bard is in the middle of prototyping and Ashes is still early enough in development that Intrepid can apply enemies that cause counter mana mechanics and archetypes can be built with a rock in their kit to counter the Bard's scissors.

You don't want to have Bard's giving unlimited mana resources in combat without a counter available, you would never be able to counter the active blocking of a Tank if attacking their active block reduces their mana and a Bard can just sustain the block forever without any way to reduce the mana received. There has to be a counter that forces communication and team focus to shift to defending the support's ability to continue their support.

I would love if the Bard, like the Cleric, is responsible for keeping the Tank's resources up in order to give them the ability to sustain active blocking (so if you want to stop a Tank you have to stop their Bard/Cleric) and the Bard is also responsible for sustaining the entire group's mana management as well, while also keeping buffs/debuffs happening actively on the field. I am also hoping Bard's mana sustain will require proximity so they are an active and engaging class that uses their dancer skill line to move between allies to keep them sustained while providing buffs for them as well.

Let me know what you think, add something to the discussion, I feel like it's early enough now to make Bard an essential support on the level of Cleric.

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Comments

koltovince

I can be entirely wrong but I think some of the support skills a bard can offer will come in the form of "The next weapon combo you complete you will get X buff" to allow the bard to buff but not handhold. It might also be more than mana, like having buffs where weapon skill procs have 20% increased change of activating when the bard pulls out the lute for a sick solo. Having the regeneration abilities locked behind players using combos correctly could help prevent just infinite mana gifts.

In regards to counter play, if the bard is the mana return class I believe summoner or mage would aesthetically make the most sense to "block" mana regeneration since they are both magic DPS. We could argue for rogue as well, and this makes rogues vibe with their lockdown/stun theme where they can shut down any mana regeneration on a target making them incapable of movement.

For me, I hope that both wounds and this mana "defile" will have a long CD dispel on a class that allows them to be removed. Not enough to nullify the affect of a fighter on top of the cleric, but enough leniency that the fight isn't over because the enemy fighter got 20 stacks on your cleric in the first 5s of the fight and he cant heal for the next 10s.

Xenotex

I love that idea, I feel like summoner or mage makes sense to be a counter for mana regeneration. They can target the Bard with their minions or ranged skills to cause debilitating effects and the groups responsibility would be to peel off those minions or cleanse the "defile" that a mage would inflict so the Bard can continue their regen support.

I agree with the idea you have of making the Bard more active in order to keep their mana regen skills up on the field. I feel like it's important to make it a back/mid/frontline support that rotates through the group to apply buffs, same for debuffs against enemy targets.

I also agree on the long CD for those defile skills, the defile skills and the cleanse skills to counter them need to be long CD so you have to make conscious decisions on when to use them instead of just brainlessly rotating through them with 100% uptime. Defiles need to be planned skills you use against support targets to shut them down quick with a planned attack, not just something that sits in your rotation bar so you can press a button and hard counter an archetype.

I feel like talking about this now is important because I don't want to see the Bard get band-aid fixes down the road, I want those fixes in place from the start so they make sense from the beginning. I like to know my archetype isn't going to get a nerf as an afterthought, these things have to be figured out sooner rather than later so they actually fit into the entire experience as a whole and not "In PvP Bard mana is an issue, fix this without considering PvE" I would love to see PvE mobs using counters to mana regen.and healing.

Iskiab

Interesting, I got the same impression after the fighter showcase, bard will be a mana battery for the group.

I came to the opposite conclusion, there's no showcase for bards yet, but I wouldn't worry about bards having counter-play, I'd worry about bards being extremely boring to play. If all bards do is provide mana to others, I doubt you'll see a lot of bards, that's just boring.

Garrtok

Can we just wait for the showcase?

Xenotex

Iskiab wrote: »

Interesting, I got the same impression after the fighter showcase, bard will be a mana battery for the group.

I came to the opposite conclusion, there's no showcase for bards yet, but I wouldn't worry about bards having counter-play, I'd worry about bards being extremely boring to play. If all bards do is provide mana to others, I doubt you'll see a lot of bards, that's just boring.

Well I doubt it will be as simple as being a mana battery, I think that just falls into the "Hard Utility" function that Steven was hinting to on Discord when he originally spoke about Bard. Sure, there's no showcase, I just think it's important to consider counter-play earlier than later when you're building combat systems this early in a games development.

Xenotex

Garrtok wrote: »

Can we just wait for the showcase?

Sure, why even come here and discuss the game? Can we just wait until release?

tautau

Perhaps the songs of the Bard will influence mana costs of skills &/or mana generation of characters, rather than transferring mana between players?

You are right, we have to wait to find out.

Azherae

tautau wrote: »

Perhaps the songs of the Bard will influence mana costs of skills &/or mana generation of characters, rather than transferring mana between players?

You are right, we have to wait to find out.

I really hope not, having just seen the Fighter's kit...

Mana regen speed is a pacing limiter...

koltovince

Azherae wrote: »

I really hope not, having just seen the Fighter's kit...

Mana regen speed is a pacing limiter...

How would you suggest having the bard give unique utility to a group if not via mana regen? The mana regen for all we know can help but it might not be enough for a bad player to do well if they ignore weapon combos and keep spamming. I personally think the buffs should apply to weapon skill chains so the player still has to do something to get the buffs.

Azherae

koltovince wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I really hope not, having just seen the Fighter's kit...

Mana regen speed is a pacing limiter...

How would you suggest having the bard give unique utility to a group if not via mana regen? The mana regen for all we know can help but it might not be enough for a bad player to do well if they ignore weapon combos and keep spamming. I personally think the buffs should apply to weapon skill chains so the player still has to do something to get the buffs.

Ah, not entirely what I meant.

Too much in my own head.

Mana regen is fine, skill mana cost down is, for me, bad... or rather 'dangerous'.

Xenotex

koltovince wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I really hope not, having just seen the Fighter's kit...

Mana regen speed is a pacing limiter...

How would you suggest having the bard give unique utility to a group if not via mana regen? The mana regen for all we know can help but it might not be enough for a bad player to do well if they ignore weapon combos and keep spamming. I personally think the buffs should apply to weapon skill chains so the player still has to do something to get the buffs.

I like this idea, give the ability to receive the regen but leave it up to the player to succeed at getting the mana.

Iskiab

Looking at how other classes have a lot of tools and cc/buffs, bards will need to have a lot more than just mana regen buffs. Some ideas are movement speed, attack/cast time speed, damage buffs, etc…

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