BlackBrony wrote: » What is this obsession with warriors having to be "realistic". Like you have a freaking mage teleporting and you want the fighter to not be able to jump too much because it's not real. Lifesteal makes complete sense for a fighter It's a fantasy game, not real life.
Azherae wrote: » I'm sure it will be the obvious standard reaction? They'll just go 'oh I don't like this' and not play. That's how it works, right?
OceanSunwind wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » What is this obsession with warriors having to be "realistic". Like you have a freaking mage teleporting and you want the fighter to not be able to jump too much because it's not real. Lifesteal makes complete sense for a fighter It's a fantasy game, not real life. Because the best fantasies are mostly realistic. If a fantasy world were to be mostly fantasy than it takes away from the value of the fantasies. example: If everyone is special, no one is special. basically.. the more realistic a fantasy world is and the more sprinkled the fantasy elements are outside of the races the more impactful the fantasy feels.
Diamaht wrote: » Well I mean guys lets be real, some builds are definitely going to better than others no matter what you do. With good balancing the best you can hope for is many options instead of only a few. Any fighter build with self heal will almost certainly be on the good list. Any build without it is far less likely. That's just the reality. I'm for self heal just from a quality of life standpoint. It's rough playing a tank when any life loss is permanent without pots. You wear down faster than any other class since you are required to be in damage range of all mobs at all times. It doesn't have to be even close to full heal, but some recovery built in without consumables makes the class more fun and versatile. It also extends your play time, before requiring a rest. The OP is saying he'll have far fewer options if self healing exists at all and he's right. However, I'm really not interested in playing another tank that is slave to his hp bar and I'm not alone. Also not interested in how hard it will be to find tanks, when we need one, after the class is made less enjoyable.
OceanSunwind wrote: » everyone is "slave" to their own hp bar. Healers shouldn't be out healing damage so much so that they are unkillable, rogues deal damage and have cc + utility out the wazoo to mitigate their lack of hp, rangers kite to the best of their abilities because most often they are squishy, caster classes even more so because they are typically glass cannons. The recovery could be mitigation or adrenaline that reduce damage taken for a short period of time and falls off.
Dygz wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Well I mean guys lets be real, some builds are definitely going to better than others no matter what you do. With good balancing the best you can hope for is many options instead of only a few. Any fighter build with self heal will almost certainly be on the good list. Any build without it is far less likely. That's just the reality. I'm for self heal just from a quality of life standpoint. It's rough playing a tank when any life loss is permanent without pots. You wear down faster than any other class since you are required to be in damage range of all mobs at all times. It doesn't have to be even close to full heal, but some recovery built in without consumables makes the class more fun and versatile. It also extends your play time, before requiring a rest. The OP is saying he'll have far fewer options if self healing exists at all and he's right. However, I'm really not interested in playing another tank that is slave to his hp bar and I'm not alone. Also not interested in how hard it will be to find tanks, when we need one, after the class is made less enjoyable. Lets be real. "Better" is subjective. Especially in a well-designed RPG. Base balance in Ashes is for an 8 person group. Good builds should be determined by how each individual group chooses to spec and synergize abilities with their groupmates. Especially via Augments. Not some standardized META. But, even individually, there are a variety of ways to add self-heals besides Fighter Active Skills. Several Secondary Archetype Schools provide self-heals. And we can expect some self-heals via Racial, Social Org and Religion Augments as well. Many ways to skin a cat.
nanfoodle wrote: » Dygz wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Well I mean guys lets be real, some builds are definitely going to better than others no matter what you do. With good balancing the best you can hope for is many options instead of only a few. Any fighter build with self heal will almost certainly be on the good list. Any build without it is far less likely. That's just the reality. I'm for self heal just from a quality of life standpoint. It's rough playing a tank when any life loss is permanent without pots. You wear down faster than any other class since you are required to be in damage range of all mobs at all times. It doesn't have to be even close to full heal, but some recovery built in without consumables makes the class more fun and versatile. It also extends your play time, before requiring a rest. The OP is saying he'll have far fewer options if self healing exists at all and he's right. However, I'm really not interested in playing another tank that is slave to his hp bar and I'm not alone. Also not interested in how hard it will be to find tanks, when we need one, after the class is made less enjoyable. Lets be real. "Better" is subjective. Especially in a well-designed RPG. Base balance in Ashes is for an 8 person group. Good builds should be determined by how each individual group chooses to spec and synergize abilities with their groupmates. Especially via Augments. Not some standardized META. But, even individually, there are a variety of ways to add self-heals besides Fighter Active Skills. Several Secondary Archetype Schools provide self-heals. And we can expect some self-heals via Racial, Social Org and Religion Augments as well. Many ways to skin a cat. Self heal is not the problem. A PvP game where fighters that has a role of frount line, should have self heals. Mitigation alone won't keep them in the fight. I do think the balance of the Fighters other specs needs to be considered. I hate when a class is piggion holed by the game or the coummity. I do think synergies is where that will balance.
nanfoodle wrote: » Dygz wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Self heal is not the problem. A PvP game where fighters that has a role of frount line, should have self heals. Mitigation alone won't keep them in the fight. I do think the balance of the Fighters other specs needs to be considered. I hate when a class is piggion holed by the game or the coummity. I do think synergies is where that will balance. Self healing is a much weaker form of sustain than mitigation unless the 2 are combo'd together the fighters kit. My problem is that it defeats class fantasy. It defeats the feeling of being a fighter and makes the player feel like a necro fighter. There are so many better ideas than self heal that I'll list below.Self Healing would be practically useless to a fighter if he is in the front line because that health healed would be taken within .25 seconds.. If one additional player shot an arrow or casted a spell the fighter would still be deleted with in seconds. Mitigation on the other hand would add the skill based element of using the players eyes to see the incoming green glowing arrow and bright red/orange magic bolt, to activate "Adrenaline" or "Brace" or "Prepare" or "Sword Block" or "Counter", to mitigate the incoming damage so that the fighter can play the game and also remain within class fantasy.
Dygz wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Self heal is not the problem. A PvP game where fighters that has a role of frount line, should have self heals. Mitigation alone won't keep them in the fight. I do think the balance of the Fighters other specs needs to be considered. I hate when a class is piggion holed by the game or the coummity. I do think synergies is where that will balance. Self healing is a much weaker form of sustain than mitigation unless the 2 are combo'd together the fighters kit. My problem is that it defeats class fantasy. It defeats the feeling of being a fighter and makes the player feel like a necro fighter. There are so many better ideas than self heal that I'll list below.Self Healing would be practically useless to a fighter if he is in the front line because that health healed would be taken within .25 seconds.. If one additional player shot an arrow or casted a spell the fighter would still be deleted with in seconds. Mitigation on the other hand would add the skill based element of using the players eyes to see the incoming green glowing arrow and bright red/orange magic bolt, to activate "Adrenaline" or "Brace" or "Prepare" or "Sword Block" or "Counter", to mitigate the incoming damage so that the fighter can play the game and also remain within class fantasy.
Diamaht wrote: » Self heal is not the problem. A PvP game where fighters that has a role of frount line, should have self heals. Mitigation alone won't keep them in the fight. I do think the balance of the Fighters other specs needs to be considered. I hate when a class is piggion holed by the game or the coummity. I do think synergies is where that will balance.
OceanSunwind wrote: » My problem is that it defeats class fantasy. It defeats the feeling of being a fighter and makes the player feel like a necro fighter.
A fighter showered in blood getting a boost to his killing drive, as represented by him being able to live for a bit longer, fits the fighter fantasy just right imo.
NiKr wrote: » OceanSunwind wrote: » My problem is that it defeats class fantasy. It defeats the feeling of being a fighter and makes the player feel like a necro fighter. It does those thing TO YOU, because both of those are a subjective feeling. To me "necro" means dead, so it has nothing to do with blood or healing back. If the fighter died, but then could operate for several more seconds as a zombie - now that's a necro fighter (again, this is also a subjective fantasy). A fighter showered in blood getting a boost to his killing drive, as represented by him being able to live for a bit longer, fits the fighter fantasy just right imo. We also dunno who else might be interacting with blood-related effects. Maybe it's purely a fighter thing in Ashes.
Depraved wrote: » how is damage reduction the fighter class fantasy? that should be for tank, unless the fighter is also the tank... A fighter showered in blood getting a boost to his killing drive, as represented by him being able to live for a bit longer, fits the fighter fantasy just right imo. agreed
OceanSunwind wrote: » Depraved wrote: » how is damage reduction the fighter class fantasy? that should be for tank, unless the fighter is also the tank... A fighter showered in blood getting a boost to his killing drive, as represented by him being able to live for a bit longer, fits the fighter fantasy just right imo. agreed copy pasta'd my previous reply. Self healing is a much weaker form of sustain than mitigation unless the 2 are combo'd together the fighters kit. My problem is that it defeats class fantasy. It defeats the feeling of being a fighter and makes the player feel like a necro fighter. There are so many better ideas than self heal that I'll list below. Self Healing would be practically useless to a fighter if he is in the front line because that health healed would be taken within .25 seconds.. If one additional player shot an arrow or casted a spell the fighter would still be deleted with in seconds. Mitigation on the other hand would add the skill based element of using the players eyes to see the incoming green glowing arrow and bright red/orange magic bolt, to activate "Adrenaline" or "Brace" or "Prepare" or "Sword Block" or "Counter", to mitigate the incoming damage so that the fighter can play the game and also remain within class fantasy.
Azherae wrote: » Ashes supposedly will not be a game where these things you have said, are true. Death would not come fast enough, even to a frontline fighter, with enough On-hit healing, in a game with a '30s TTK', even focused down, because the more enemies around, the more healing is happening.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Ashes supposedly will not be a game where these things you have said, are true. Death would not come fast enough, even to a frontline fighter, with enough On-hit healing, in a game with a '30s TTK', even focused down, because the more enemies around, the more healing is happening. I didn't notice it during the stream, but did Blood Fusion work in aoe? I'd assume it does, but you can never know for sure until knowing for sure.
Azherae wrote: » I believe it was specifically suggested to pop it during Whirlwind. I have faith in the design team's understanding of player expectations.
