My PvX != Your PvX

Basis: I prefer PvE over PvP so, in my mind, I'd like to see more balance between the systems.

Is this a fantasy, yes. I know logically that PvX for Ashes consists of a blend, a mixture if you will, of both elements. Therefore, I think that when some of us say "Ashes isn't really PvX", what we mean is that it isn't what we would think PvX would be (Equal measure of both in my opinion).

Do I want PvE only servers? No. I enjoy the risks that come with the PvP Systems in mind. Will I need a group of friends to play with because (even though I'm complimented for living in the Caravan stream) I'm a big scaredy cat when it comes to PvP? Absolutely!

All in all, I'm just trying to say that I think PvX can be considered more of a spectrum where some of us like the (in my opinion) PvP heavy version of PvX and I'm sure there are some that prefer a more PvE heavy version of PvX.

I plan to play Ashes all the same, but I had seen this topic floating around and wanted to discuss it, or share my thoughts.

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CROW3

Cata was simply not fun. Same with Warlords and BFA. TBC and Legion were the best DLCs imo.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

See, now you're talking about raid bosses.

Beating the Lich King is the end of that story (afaik).

There seems to perhaps be a disconnect here.

An MMORPG's "story" and the "main quest line" are not inherently the same thing

Yes, killing the Lich King was technically the end of that portion of the story (a story that started in Warcraft 3), but doing so was not a part of the main quest line.

It was what I was talking about earlier - post main quest line content.

This whole line of thinking you have here is incorrect - it is built on a foundation that isn't true, and has lead you to an assumption that isn't true.

Otr

Dygz wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

I guess I start to understand why this change bothers you.
By adding the open sea, all those players who would spend most of their time playing there are potentially different from those who spend their time on land. It is like having 2 different audiences.
But so far IS didn't placed any nodes into the open sea, to have so called pirate bases and the open sea is still separated from the node ZoI and whatever they do there do not help their nodes. This is consistent with the corrupted players having no way to store items and loot into chests, anywhere.
To keep the initial design philosophy, the open sea should not have the best drops from sea monsters or fishing. Then you can say you have no reason to go there at all. If that will happen or not, not even Alpha 2 can show because such things can be added anytime, even after release.
So compared to EvE where you can have player made stations in null sector, AoC prevents that. A player spending all his time in the ocean will not help his node and will not get node specific currencies either.

It doesn't really "bother" me.
It's a large area of the map that is a permanent auto-flag, free-for-all Corruption-free PvP combat zone.
And I don't play games that have areas like that.
Because I'm going to want to explore that are without being subject to PvP.
It's a great addition for Steven's playstyle. It's just a ruleset that I have no interest in playing.

I am an Explorer first and foremost.
I am not really motivated by Risk or Reward.
I explore the entire map because that's what I like to do most. Even if there is no other reward besides uncovering the fog of war.
Same with Defending Caravans and/or Sieges. I don't necessarily care about the rewards or the "risks".
I like to sometimes Defend objectives, like Towns and Cities, and while I'm doing that, I don't necessarily care whether or not the Attackers are players or mobs.
But, that's for about 1/8 of my play session. And... when I'm not in the mood for the 7/8 of my play session - I need to be completely immune from PvP.

In deep ocean, if flagging would be enabled, a pirate ship which sees 3 far away ships around it, would have to approach one randomly. That might end up as a non-combatant ship and the pirate might never catch up with the other two.
Having no flagging ensures that any choice can lead to battle.

The problem I see with immunity is that players on water mounts can act as invulnerable scouts to find out if there are other ships around and maintain a large distance from other ship.

How will flagging work for ships in coastal waters?

Somehow I don't see it fit for vehicles. Caravans and it's defenders are also in always PvP mode.

Otr

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

See, now you're talking about raid bosses.

Beating the Lich King is the end of that story (afaik).

And again, I used Asmon as simply an example. Cata's sub numbers show that they started going down pretty much immediately, meaning that people stopped their subs even before they knew for sure that cata was a bad expansion.

I've seen a ton of people say they have no interest for what FF14 will put out in the future, because the current overarching story has ended.

I'm sure there are more story-based mmos out there that I simply don't know, but considering that these are the biggest ones, I do think their examples are valid for what I'm trying to say.

People who play MMOs for story, are not reliable customers to pay monthly subscription.
They'll try to speedrun.
Story can even be watched on youtube or twitch.
Those who pay regularly, I think they do because they like the combat and leveling.
But even that, is more fun when a new game is released or gets an expansion, so players just move between them and speedrun.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

This whole line of thinking you have here is incorrect - it is built on a foundation that isn't true, and has lead you to an assumption that isn't true.

Might not be true to you, but it is just fine for me. I'm looking at the overall picture and taking into the account what I've seen said by other people (and no, not just Asmon).

Ashes will have The Others and The Ancients. And unless we wipe them all out at the release of the game - their story will probably be the main throughline of the game. And depending on how deep Steven wants to take that story, there might be several huge names who we defeat over several expansions, after which a good chunk of story players (if there are any of them) might leave.

There'll be other quests and some of those bosses might not even be a direct part of the "main quest", but if we get a list of names of the "main antagonists" (which Ancients/Others are) - once we're done with them, that's gonna be the end of the main story for me.

I'm sure Intrepid will try adding new antagonists or find other way to somehow continue that story, but the initial main evil will be defeated, so what comes after will simply be a different story which will have to either hook people in again or attract a completely new playerbase to appeal to (something Mihoyo have just done with their Honkai Impact 3rd game).

Our views on this topic are simply different, as our views usually are

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Our views on this topic are simply different, as our views usually are

Your view here seems to suggest that you now think Ashes is an inherently different game to what you thought it was last week.

The game you are talking about now simply isn't compatible with the open world, PvP core that is Ashes.

I honestly have no idea how you convinced yourself that you are correct here.

Ludullu

Otr wrote: »

People who play MMOs for story, are not reliable customers to pay monthly subscription.

They are, as long as your story is good and is updated regularly. To me Mihoyo games are the biggest proof of that. Genshin has been out for over 3 years, yet it still makes insane money every patch, because characters that they release are interesting within the story (and the upcoming one will be one of the most interesting chars, so I think it'll make a ton of money as well).

Star Rail is the same and is also making insane money.

Yeah, sure, whales contribute a good chunk of that, but considering that getting a full char only costs a few thousand - you'd either need thousands of those whales or simply an equal distribution of expenditures by normies. And even if it was all simply whales - the characters that make the most money are the ones that are hyped by the story.

If Ashes has an interesting story and is releasing updates as often as they want to - I'm sure there'll be a fair number of people that stay subbed for that.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

I honestly have no idea how you convinced yourself that you are correct here.

Instanced story dungeons

If Steven goes back on those - great, the game will be even more open world, which I prefer. But I somehow doubt he will.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I honestly have no idea how you convinced yourself that you are correct here.

Instanced story dungeons If Steven goes back on those - great, the game will be even more open world, which I prefer. But I somehow doubt he will.

Yeah, they will exist - but not how you seem to be looking at them.

Nothing about them will be ultimate - people won't be playing Ashes for the story. Most people playing Ashes won't even know there is a story - because there is no real way for the developers to craft a cohesive story in a way that people willing to play an MMORPG for the story will find acceptable.

People that play games for the story absolutely do play games like EQ, EQ2, ESO, WoW, and probably the FF games. Notice what these games all have in common that Ashes doesn't?

If Steven attempts to put any resources that he has at hand in to trying to attract people that play MMORPG's for the story, then everyone on these forums should be really concerned.

Sure, the game will *have* a story. That will be about the end of it. 95% of the peop[le playing the game won't know anything at all about the story - most won't even be aware that a story exists.

There is nothing at all that is "ultimate" about what you are talking about.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

There is nothing at all that is "ultimate" about what you are talking about.

Noaani, you once again refuse to see what I'm talking about and what I mean when I'm saying what "ultimate" means to ME. Not you, not others, to ME.

I have already said, if there's no one who cares about the story - ok. If there are, and those instanced dungeons contain said story and are easy enough to clear as long as you have a group to do it with (just as wow/ff14's basic dungeons do) - there will be people like me who view that story as the ultimate pve goal in the game.

It definitely won't be you or Azherae or Dygz or, I'd bet, anyone currently on this forum.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

I have already said, if there's no one who cares about the story - ok. If there are, and those instanced dungeons contain said story and are easy enough to clear as long as you have a group to do it with (just as wow/ff14's basic dungeons do) - there will be people like me who view that story as the ultimate pve goal in the game.

So, I was right in that there was a word wrong in your statement, it was just a different word to what I thought.

Where you are saying "the ultimate PvE goal", you should be saying "my ultimate PvE goal", or "our ultimate PvE goal".

This shifts your statement from one that is making an objective claim that is false, to that of a subjective claim that no one else cares about. You even state that this goal of yours wouldn't be the goal for other people, which means you know it can not be "the" ultimate goal, it can only be "your" ultimate goal.

The part of what you have said now that you should reconsider is that you are catagorising games based on the parts of the game you apply importance to, rather than to the game as a whole.

Aszkalon

All this talk ... ... ...

... ... ... and in the end, all of you " WILL " obey and buy into it anyway ... ... ...

HybridSR

Noaani wrote: »

Again, Asmon says what ever he thinks will increase e gsgement with his content - in regards to factual information you should just ignore everything he says.

True. As a general rule, ignore everything Asmon says about MMOs. He's only ever played WoW/FF or games that are mostly PvE focused and this is a guy who hates the idea of dying even while playing PoE. He despises anything that isn't something he can control and he will 100% despise AoC the moment he gets dropped. He will talk about how "to me it's a silly idea when you allow griefers to do whatever you want in your game, it just doesn't make any sense to me" and his army of absolute brainlets will parrot how AoC is a "gankfest" cause their leader has WoW brain and cannot comprehend the idea of fighting to earn something instead of just picking it up or just repeating the same activity 50 times with 0 risk until he gets what he wants. Someone not letting you loot something valuable, making you fight for it? "GRIEFING!". Someone not letting you farm in the best spot and making you fight for it? "GRIEFING!" . Someone not letting you kill the Raid Boss cause they want it for their party? "GRIEFING!"

Reminder that Asmon thinks MMOs should have "Elden Ring" combat (Imagine mass PvP with combat like that, he's absolutely clueless), and that "PvP players are trash who only PvP in MMOs because they can't win in any other game" and that PvP in MMOs is a terrible idea (even though, once again, he never played a single PvP MMO in his life). He's the first to criticize animations, style, graphics, VFX while he plays an MMO that looks like N64's Ocarina of Time with some AA and a higher resolution.

And even a ton of people who play WoW, completely disagree with him, even with his WoW takes. So whatever Asmon says about MMOs, Intrepid needs to do the exact opposite.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

The part of what you have said now that you should reconsider is that you are catagorising games based on the parts of the game you apply importance to, rather than to the game as a whole.

You can disagree with my conclusions on the things I've heard about WoW's past and FF14's present, but unless we talk to hundreds (ideally thousands) of players from those games - we won't know true reason why Cata started losing players in the first months of the expansion or whether what I've heard about FF14 is a wide-spread attitude or not.

I generalized my position based on my conclusions. They can be wrong, but w/o concrete info I wouldn't know for sure. If you have some data to concretely prove your argument - I'd be glad to see it. Cause so far you've simply said that you disagree with the position that a lot of people play games for the story and story only.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

unless we talk to hundreds

I mean... I do.

Don't take my word for it though, go out and actually talk to people that left during Cataclysm. They will usually be happy to tell you the reason they left, and that reason will almost never be because of the games story.

In my years playing MMORPG's, i have known exactly three people that played *for* the story. I've known many others that follow the story, but only those three that are in the game for the story.

Aszkalon

NiKr wrote: »

unless we talk to hundreds

Noaani wrote: »

I mean... I do.

Yes, you do.

All of You do.
I myself am even doing the same thing to a certain Degree. (lol)

Ruerik

NiKr wrote: »

I feel like you missed my clarification on what I meant by "ultimate pve goal". It's story of the game. That's it. People play games for the story. Majority of people play the game for the dev-created purely main quest story.

I expect those instanced dungeons to be that story. The entire point of making those dungeons instanced is to let LITERALLY EVERYONE finish them w/o being scared that someone will stop them from doing the base lvl story content.

The story part of a game is more true that you know. FF14 in particular has amazing story the deeper you get in to it.

A game can have deep fun engaging endgame. But to get hooked enough on the game to keep up with grind after grind every tier release, the game needs to have a good story for a player to get pulled in to.

Otherwise its just another game of once a week raidlogging on reset day.

And even then, when a game like ff14 has so many addons added to where the endgame is becoming trivialized low effort follow what the addon says to do and where to stand game play, then even the story itself doesnt matter too much.

In the end, the game needs both great story, depth, as well as engaging gameplay to be something players will stick with long term.

Ludullu

Aszkalon wrote: »

All of You do.
I myself am even doing the same thing to a certain Degree. (lol)

I don't

The barely a dozen people on this forum are the only gamers I talk to. I wouldn't even know where to find hundreds of people that stopped playing a game over a decade ago.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Aszkalon wrote: »

All of You do.
I myself am even doing the same thing to a certain Degree. (lol)

I don't The barely a dozen people on this forum are the only gamers I talk to. I wouldn't even know where to find hundreds of people that stopped playing a game over a decade ago.

Usually in other games.

Most of the ones I talked to about it were people I was playing games with before WoW even released.

As I have always been interested in the design of games I play and enjoy, I've always been interested in talking to people about them. As such, I have a large group of friends - some whom I currently play with but most who now play different games - that I often just chat with about games and their design, and who in turn talk to the people they are currently playing with about game design.

I don't have a single community where ex-WoW players all hang out (that sounds like Asmon chat to me), I just have many, many people I talk to.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

I don't have a single community where ex-WoW players all hang out (that sounds like Asmon chat to me), I just have many, many people I talk to.

Yep, and I don't talk to people about stuff that I'm not interested in. WoW has never been my interest. Over the past 20 years of gaming I've never played a game with anyone who was interested in wow, because in my neck of the planetary woods no one cared about it. Even my extended bubble of acquaintances have no interest in games like that (hence why I clung onto Ashes and its "L2, but 3" design).

And that is also why most of my info comes through aggregated info from streams/videos filtered through surface-lvl googling to check if that info is completely fake or not.

And after that filter and googling I came to the conclusion that I came to. Could be wrong or skewed or limited or whatever. I mostly look to Asmon when it comes to wow info because he has played it his entire life, just as I did L2. And when I see him say something and then see a good chunk of chat reply in some way - I take that statement as smth that a wow player, who HAS in fact talked to thousands of players of that game, believes (+the agreement or disagreement of the chat on top of that, all of whom did the same as Asmon).

You're a hardcore pver, who has played with hardcore pvers, who somewhat likely have also played with the same type of players. So your bubble is similar to mine, just from a different side and definitely larger in scope. Asmon was hardcore pver for a while, but turned into casual, who knows all the game's lore and has good memory about the game's past events. His chat is a collection of people of all types, who don't always agree with his views.

So the rare few times that I do catch a wow video reaction of his or just hear him talk about smth in the context of wow - the overall process, to me, seems like a fairly nice way to get a pulse on what wow players of different involvement think about the game (now or of the past).

And as I keep saying, after having heard stuff on his stream and/or videos of other people that were on that stream and seeing the reaction from the chat and seeing the near-immediate drop of subs in cata - I came to a conclusion that "people left after WotLK cause the overall story of warcraft was done" is a logical thing to think.

And using that conclusion, the next thought step of "if people left cause the story was done, it seems kinda logical that to them the story was the most important part" was also a fairly easy one.

I then compared that assumption with what I've seen from countless streamers/videos/comments about Mihoyo games, and that thought process became even more logical to me.

If you disagree with that logic due to your own aggregated research on the topic - cool. The only way for me to know who is factually correct between the two of us, would be to somehow poll the millions of people who left wow during cata and see the results. Otherwise it's simply small scale anecdotes from respective bubbles (Asmon's chat being the same of course).

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