Fighters are vampires? (Please read this)

Hey! I loved just about everything that the team has done with the fighter archetype but one thing. Since when has the mmo community agreed that fighters are also vampires? Why is it that blood heals a fighter/warrior/beserker?

Solution 1: Instead of healing with blood (vampirism) how about incorporating "Adrenaline". Adrenaline could be the ability to replace the vampiric ability. Instead of healing for a smaller portion, the fighter could mitigate damage (pain) for a short period of time and that mitigation could be equal to the healing of the vampiric ability.

Solution 2: Why not just increase the HP pool size of a fighter so that it doesn’t affect the class fantasy? Is a fighter healing really a good choice? Again, just make their HP pool bigger equivalent to the guesstimated amount of healing done from vampiric blood drinking or whatever. So if the fighter were to heal for 400hp, why not just increase the fighter's hp by around that much? The fighter wouldn't be a tank, it would still be a fighter but slightly more beefy.

Thanks for reading this. The animations look smooth and sick. The leap a bit cheesy, but cool. The exert ability and stances are amazing concepts. Love just about everything except what was mentioned above.

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OceanSunwind

NiKr wrote: »

OceanSunwind wrote: »

blood healing for a warrior is ironically the copy pasta for every fighter arch type.

That is definitely not what you said in the literal OP

OceanSunwind wrote: »

Since when has the mmo community agreed that fighters are also vampires? Why is it that blood heals a fighter/warrior/beserker?

Funny how that is

Dygz wrote: »

So, Self-Heal seems fine for them as long as it's not via siphoning Blood from the opponent(s).

Nah, it's the healing.

OceanSunwind wrote: »

It's a self healing fighter that bugs me.

Though Ocean then says

OceanSunwind wrote: »

I know many mmo's before this one has used vampirism as a warrior trope, but this mmorpg is an "ambitious project"

Which contradicts the question in the OP, so I feel like there's some internal confusion going on.

oooooh! you misunderstand the original question. comprehension issues, that's ok. the MMO community are they, that I was asking the question to, who are not the MMO developers. MMO developers one day thought blood healing for the warrior archtypes was most likely simple to do and implemented. The question is asking us the community, us the players, when did we come to agree with the developers that this was a good idea or cool and didn't break class fantasy? Good try, you almost did it. Almost.

OceanSunwind

But really though, why accept mediocrity. I could imagine how back when game developing had technological limitations. There could have probably been no way to engineer a fighter that uses his brain to block, parry, side step, slice through magic missiles, etc.. but today? There shouldn't be an excuse to just fall back on the copy pasta warrior arch type. Again, I am saying that blood magic warriors are not warriors, they are vampires, which hurts class fantasy. I am saying that it doesn't feel good to imagine being in a different world, making a character in this different world, to wanting to master the sword and hone your talents, to literally not use those honed imaginative talents and rely on blood magic healing. It's lame.

Ludullu

OceanSunwind wrote: »

The question is asking us the community, us the players, when did we come to agree with the developers that this was a good idea or cool and didn't break class fantasy?

From what I've seen in responses, the "blood warrior" theme has been present in pretty much all popular mmos.

So your question has already been answered by default. The mmo community agreed with that fantasy as soon as it appeared. And has been agreeing with it ever since. Because if people didn't agree with it en masse, devs would stop making it.

OceanSunwind wrote: »

Again, I am saying that blood magic warriors are not warriors, they are vampires, which hurts class fantasy. I am saying that it doesn't feel good to imagine being in a different world, making a character in this different world, to wanting to master the sword and hone your talents, to literally not use those honed imaginative talents and rely on blood magic healing. It's lame.

Blood Fusion is one out of dozens abilities. A singular ability prevents you from enjoying an entire archetype? That sounds like a you problem, rather than a design problem.

Diamaht

OceanSunwind wrote: »

Diamaht wrote: »

OceanSunwind wrote: »

Hey! I loved just about everything that the team has done with the fighter archetype but one thing. Since when has the mmo community agreed that fighters are also vampires? Why is it that blood heals a fighter/warrior/beserker?

Solution 1: Instead of healing with blood (vampirism) how about incorporating "Adrenaline". Adrenaline could be the ability to replace the vampiric ability. Instead of healing for a smaller portion, the fighter could mitigate damage (pain) for a short period of time and that mitigation could be equal to the healing of the vampiric ability.

Solution 2: Why not just increase the HP pool size of a fighter so that it doesn’t affect the class fantasy? Is a fighter healing really a good choice? Again, just make their HP pool bigger equivalent to the guesstimated amount of healing done from vampiric blood drinking or whatever. So if the fighter were to heal for 400hp, why not just increase the fighter's hp by around that much? The fighter wouldn't be a tank, it would still be a fighter but slightly more beefy.

Thanks for reading this. The animations look smooth and sick. The leap a bit cheesy, but cool. The exert ability and stances are amazing concepts. Love just about everything except what was mentioned above.

Is it the self healing, or is it the vampire aesthetic that you don't like?

The self healing is fine, lots of mmos have tanks that self heal to a degree. WoW, GW2, EQ2, SWG (with multispecing), Every space game has shield regen, FFXIV, SWTOR, Vanguard. Those are off the top of my head.

It's a self healing fighter that bugs me. I know many mmo's before this one has used vampirism as a warrior trope, but this mmorpg is an "ambitious project". This mmo is taking bits and pieces from other mmos to be it's own thing. it's own spin and unique quality.

Dygz wrote: »

I mean - the OP states the problem is Blood. And would prefer it to be Adrenaline (and not Adrenaline drained from the opponent.)
So, Self-Heal seems fine for them as long as it's not via siphoning Blood from the opponent(s).

The top answer was from ealier in the topic. It's the self healing of any kind that is not liked.

The issue is that all of their responses talk about blood magic so it obscures the original intent of the post.

What is being debated is whether or not fighters should be allowed to self heal.

nanfoodle

oOKingOo wrote: »

I like to play Lifesteal warriors so im really glad its an option. As long as you cant have everything i think its great to have different possibilitys to play a class.

I have nothing against the lifesteal. For me it's the volume of blood and the sound effects that go with it. No one has that much blood in their body. It's excessive and a turn off. I hope fighters keep the lifesteal. My hope is they tone down the effects or add a toggle.

Diamaht

nanfoodle wrote: »

oOKingOo wrote: »

I like to play Lifesteal warriors so im really glad its an option. As long as you cant have everything i think its great to have different possibilitys to play a class.

I have nothing against the lifesteal. For me it's the volume of blood and the sound effects that go with it. No one has that much blood in their body. It's excessive and a turn off. I hope fighters keep the lifesteal. My hope is they tone down the effects or add a toggle.

I actually agree with this. Conan Exiles just had an update where blood sprays everywhere as you fight things (even more than it used to) and it just makes the game feel disgusting after an hour or two. I know some people are into it, but I'm not.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

OceanSunwind wrote: »

The question is asking us the community, us the players, when did we come to agree with the developers that this was a good idea or cool and didn't break class fantasy?

From what I've seen in responses, the "blood warrior" theme has been present in pretty much all popular mmos.

So your question has already been answered by default. The mmo community agreed with that fantasy as soon as it appeared. And has been agreeing with it ever since. Because if people didn't agree with it en masse, devs would stop making it.

OceanSunwind wrote: »

Again, I am saying that blood magic warriors are not warriors, they are vampires, which hurts class fantasy. I am saying that it doesn't feel good to imagine being in a different world, making a character in this different world, to wanting to master the sword and hone your talents, to literally not use those honed imaginative talents and rely on blood magic healing. It's lame.

Blood Fusion is one out of dozens abilities. A singular ability prevents you from enjoying an entire archetype? That sounds like a you problem, rather than a design problem.

Like i said before he is wiling to say anything that sticks or makes you agree with him even if its about different points. Its not about the skills or how they work. He just doesn't like how warriors are for his rp fantasy.

The solution again make a build around not using that skill. Consider your 8 man team comp, etc, use augments.

Though he has multiple solutions it doesn't matter he will argue about the one skill still and ignore that. He is looking for people that will say he is right and make other arguments for him.

Entomashadoll

i feel like its fine but after i think about a rogue archetype im sure it makes more sense to give a rogue alot of bleed and ruptured stuff but not warrior, it makes me worried on what they are going to do for a rogue archetype is it going to be purely based on stealth mechanics??

OceanSunwind

NiKr wrote: »

OceanSunwind wrote: »

The question is asking us the community, us the players, when did we come to agree with the developers that this was a good idea or cool and didn't break class fantasy?

From what I've seen in responses, the "blood warrior" theme has been present in pretty much all popular mmos.

So your question has already been answered by default. The mmo community agreed with that fantasy as soon as it appeared. And has been agreeing with it ever since. Because if people didn't agree with it en masse, devs would stop making it.

OceanSunwind wrote: »

Again, I am saying that blood magic warriors are not warriors, they are vampires, which hurts class fantasy. I am saying that it doesn't feel good to imagine being in a different world, making a character in this different world, to wanting to master the sword and hone your talents, to literally not use those honed imaginative talents and rely on blood magic healing. It's lame.

Blood Fusion is one out of dozens abilities. A singular ability prevents you from enjoying an entire archetype? That sounds like a you problem, rather than a design problem.

I think you just identified my opinion. yes.

I also don't think that an entire community agrees with the mmorpg developers as much as they fall into habit and go unchallenged. I am here to challenge it.

Ludullu

OceanSunwind wrote: »

I also don't think that an entire community agrees with the mmorpg developers as much as they fall into habit and go unchallenged. I am here to challenge it.

And that's totally valid.

And as someone who hasn't played a blood fighter - I'm here to challenge your challenge

Azherae

OceanSunwind wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

OceanSunwind wrote: »

The question is asking us the community, us the players, when did we come to agree with the developers that this was a good idea or cool and didn't break class fantasy?

From what I've seen in responses, the "blood warrior" theme has been present in pretty much all popular mmos.

So your question has already been answered by default. The mmo community agreed with that fantasy as soon as it appeared. And has been agreeing with it ever since. Because if people didn't agree with it en masse, devs would stop making it.

OceanSunwind wrote: »

Again, I am saying that blood magic warriors are not warriors, they are vampires, which hurts class fantasy. I am saying that it doesn't feel good to imagine being in a different world, making a character in this different world, to wanting to master the sword and hone your talents, to literally not use those honed imaginative talents and rely on blood magic healing. It's lame.

Blood Fusion is one out of dozens abilities. A singular ability prevents you from enjoying an entire archetype? That sounds like a you problem, rather than a design problem.

I think you just identified my opinion. yes.

I also don't think that an entire community agrees with the mmorpg developers as much as they fall into habit and go unchallenged. I am here to challenge it.

Well then I have a different question.

Where would you like this option to be presented to the 'Blood fueled Warriors' out there?

Of the eight Archetypes that Ashes offers, or even of the 64 classes, where do you want them to go for their 'blood fix'? We know that they exist. What do you want those players to do?

Dygz

Diamaht wrote: »

The top answer was from ealier in the topic. It's the self healing of any kind that is not liked.

The issue is that all of their responses talk about blood magic so it obscures the original intent of the post.

What is being debated is whether or not fighters should be allowed to self heal.

I mean... just two posts above yours, OceanSunWind reiterates that Blood Healing breaks class fantasy.

If Clerics can also do some melee, there should be no surprise that Fighters can also do some healing.
If Mages can do some melee combat, there should be no surprise that Fighters can do some magic combat.
Especially in a High Magic Fantasy setting.

I think the bigger fubar for most Ashes fans is the very concept of the Tank Primary Archetype.

I think OcenaSunWind wants to play some other genre of MMO than RPG, because block, parry, side step are Player Skills; not Character Skills.
And RPGs should be more focused on Character Skills than Player Skills.

nanfoodle

Dygz wrote: »

Diamaht wrote: »

The top answer was from ealier in the topic. It's the self healing of any kind that is not liked.

The issue is that all of their responses talk about blood magic so it obscures the original intent of the post.

What is being debated is whether or not fighters should be allowed to self heal.

I mean... just two posts above yours, OceanSunWind reiterates that Blood Healing breaks class fantasy.

If Clerics can also do some melee, there should be no surprise that Fighters can also do some healing.
If Mages can do some melee combat, there should be no surprise that Fighters can do some magic combat.
Especially in a High Magic Fantasy setting.

I think the bigger fubar for most Ashes fans is the very concept of the Tank Primary Archetype.

I think OcenaSunWind wants to play some other genre of MMO than RPG, because block, parry, side step are Player Skills; not Character Skills.
And RPGs should be more focused on Character Skills than Player Skills.

Love that play style. Its where heart MMO EQ1 first started for me. I think allot of old school gamers will flock here. It's new in the areas that matter and old school in the same way.

OceanSunwind

Azherae wrote: »

OceanSunwind wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

OceanSunwind wrote: »

The question is asking us the community, us the players, when did we come to agree with the developers that this was a good idea or cool and didn't break class fantasy?

From what I've seen in responses, the "blood warrior" theme has been present in pretty much all popular mmos.

So your question has already been answered by default. The mmo community agreed with that fantasy as soon as it appeared. And has been agreeing with it ever since. Because if people didn't agree with it en masse, devs would stop making it.

OceanSunwind wrote: »

Again, I am saying that blood magic warriors are not warriors, they are vampires, which hurts class fantasy. I am saying that it doesn't feel good to imagine being in a different world, making a character in this different world, to wanting to master the sword and hone your talents, to literally not use those honed imaginative talents and rely on blood magic healing. It's lame.

Blood Fusion is one out of dozens abilities. A singular ability prevents you from enjoying an entire archetype? That sounds like a you problem, rather than a design problem.

I think you just identified my opinion. yes.

I also don't think that an entire community agrees with the mmorpg developers as much as they fall into habit and go unchallenged. I am here to challenge it.

Well then I have a different question.

Where would you like this option to be presented to the 'Blood fueled Warriors' out there?

Of the eight Archetypes that Ashes offers, or even of the 64 classes, where do you want them to go for their 'blood fix'? We know that they exist. What do you want those players to do?

It seems like summoner is the reason the mage archetype is capable of becoming a Warlock who are known for blood magics. So why not have a warrior / summoner (BladeCaller) use siphoning blood spells with their sword. the blood spilt from the slashes done to the enemy magically transfuse through osmosis into health for the Bladecaller. Sacrificial magic is something i can see a Summoner do. Blood, spirits, and hex's could be given to the Fighter.

OceanSunwind

Dygz wrote: »

Diamaht wrote: »

The top answer was from ealier in the topic. It's the self healing of any kind that is not liked.

The issue is that all of their responses talk about blood magic so it obscures the original intent of the post.

What is being debated is whether or not fighters should be allowed to self heal.

I mean... just two posts above yours, OceanSunWind reiterates that Blood Healing breaks class fantasy.

If Clerics can also do some melee, there should be no surprise that Fighters can also do some healing.
If Mages can do some melee combat, there should be no surprise that Fighters can do some magic combat.
Especially in a High Magic Fantasy setting.

I think the bigger fubar for most Ashes fans is the very concept of the Tank Primary Archetype.

I think OcenaSunWind wants to play some other genre of MMO than RPG, because block, parry, side step are Player Skills; not Character Skills.
And RPGs should be more focused on Character Skills than Player Skills.

Do we lack imagination in the way that we can't simply press the key to activate the skill block to block and the next incoming attack, or press the key with dodge on it to side step the next incoming magic missle or arrow or sword swing? I don't get how you don't get how these ideas could be applied. League of Legends has these interactions with characters like Fiora, Jax, etc.. these mechanics could be implemented into an mmorpg to make a fighter archetype a true fighter. a true sword master.

Diamaht

OceanSunwind wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Diamaht wrote: »

The top answer was from ealier in the topic. It's the self healing of any kind that is not liked.

The issue is that all of their responses talk about blood magic so it obscures the original intent of the post.

What is being debated is whether or not fighters should be allowed to self heal.

I mean... just two posts above yours, OceanSunWind reiterates that Blood Healing breaks class fantasy.

If Clerics can also do some melee, there should be no surprise that Fighters can also do some healing.
If Mages can do some melee combat, there should be no surprise that Fighters can do some magic combat.
Especially in a High Magic Fantasy setting.

I think the bigger fubar for most Ashes fans is the very concept of the Tank Primary Archetype.

I think OcenaSunWind wants to play some other genre of MMO than RPG, because block, parry, side step are Player Skills; not Character Skills.
And RPGs should be more focused on Character Skills than Player Skills.

Do we lack imagination in the way that we can't simply press the key to activate the skill block to block and the next incoming attack, or press the key with dodge on it to side step the next incoming magic missle or arrow or sword swing? I don't get how you don't get how these ideas could be applied. League of Legends has these interactions with characters like Fiora, Jax, etc.. these mechanics could be implemented into an mmorpg to make a fighter archetype a true fighter. a true sword master.

You're describing full action combat which is not what they are going for. If a fighter can just dodge on coming attacks then other classes are required to aim all attacts and tab targeting is simply eliminated.

Its not a lack of imagination, it a choice to not have that style of gameplay in an mmo. If I want action combat I'll play Elden Ring, I'm not interested in that play style in an mmo setting and I'm not alone.

OceanSunwind

Diamaht wrote: »

OceanSunwind wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Diamaht wrote: »

The top answer was from ealier in the topic. It's the self healing of any kind that is not liked.

The issue is that all of their responses talk about blood magic so it obscures the original intent of the post.

What is being debated is whether or not fighters should be allowed to self heal.

I mean... just two posts above yours, OceanSunWind reiterates that Blood Healing breaks class fantasy.

If Clerics can also do some melee, there should be no surprise that Fighters can also do some healing.
If Mages can do some melee combat, there should be no surprise that Fighters can do some magic combat.
Especially in a High Magic Fantasy setting.

I think the bigger fubar for most Ashes fans is the very concept of the Tank Primary Archetype.

I think OcenaSunWind wants to play some other genre of MMO than RPG, because block, parry, side step are Player Skills; not Character Skills.
And RPGs should be more focused on Character Skills than Player Skills.

Do we lack imagination in the way that we can't simply press the key to activate the skill block to block and the next incoming attack, or press the key with dodge on it to side step the next incoming magic missle or arrow or sword swing? I don't get how you don't get how these ideas could be applied. League of Legends has these interactions with characters like Fiora, Jax, etc.. these mechanics could be implemented into an mmorpg to make a fighter archetype a true fighter. a true sword master.

You're describing full action combat which is not what they are going for. If a fighter can just dodge on coming attacks then other classes are required to aim all attacts and tab targeting is simply eliminated.

Its not a lack of imagination, it a choice to not have that style of gameplay in an mmo. If I want action combat I'll play Elden Ring, I'm not interested in that play style in an mmo setting and I'm not alone.

yeah, you lack vision. it's ok. that's ok. Having a button to dodge the next incoming attack doesn't mean or even imply that aiming mechanics are required. sad

oOKingOo

Dygz wrote: »

I mean - the OP states the problem is Blood. And would prefer it to be Adrenaline (and not Adrenaline drained from the opponent.)
So, Self-Heal seems fine for them as long as it's not via siphoning Blood from the opponent(s).

Thats not livesteal tho that feels more like something a tank should have if anything. Vampiric warrior is great. You cut up your enemys, drink their blood heal yourself kill the next enemy etc. I love that they have that as an option instead of forcing ppl into playing your standard weapon master warrior. But they also dont force you into using those skills and you can build a regular warrior instead. This should be the case with all classes.

oOKingOo

OceanSunwind wrote: »

But really though, why accept mediocrity. I could imagine how back when game developing had technological limitations. There could have probably been no way to engineer a fighter that uses his brain to block, parry, side step, slice through magic missiles, etc.. but today? There shouldn't be an excuse to just fall back on the copy pasta warrior arch type. Again, I am saying that blood magic warriors are not warriors, they are vampires, which hurts class fantasy. I am saying that it doesn't feel good to imagine being in a different world, making a character in this different world, to wanting to master the sword and hone your talents, to literally not use those honed imaginative talents and rely on blood magic healing. It's lame.

The main thing you have to understand is it hurts your personal warrior class fantasy. Other ppl for example me have exactly that class fantasy in mind and thats why the option they went with is great. You can build into a classic warrior or a bloodheal "vampiric" warrior(its literally not alot of blood selfheal spells, its not like the whole kit is bloodmagic). They dont force one or the other on us but let us decide and thats great.

oOKingOo

Azherae wrote: »

OceanSunwind wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

OceanSunwind wrote: »

The question is asking us the community, us the players, when did we come to agree with the developers that this was a good idea or cool and didn't break class fantasy?

From what I've seen in responses, the "blood warrior" theme has been present in pretty much all popular mmos.

So your question has already been answered by default. The mmo community agreed with that fantasy as soon as it appeared. And has been agreeing with it ever since. Because if people didn't agree with it en masse, devs would stop making it.

OceanSunwind wrote: »

Again, I am saying that blood magic warriors are not warriors, they are vampires, which hurts class fantasy. I am saying that it doesn't feel good to imagine being in a different world, making a character in this different world, to wanting to master the sword and hone your talents, to literally not use those honed imaginative talents and rely on blood magic healing. It's lame.

Blood Fusion is one out of dozens abilities. A singular ability prevents you from enjoying an entire archetype? That sounds like a you problem, rather than a design problem.

I think you just identified my opinion. yes.

I also don't think that an entire community agrees with the mmorpg developers as much as they fall into habit and go unchallenged. I am here to challenge it.

Well then I have a different question.

Where would you like this option to be presented to the 'Blood fueled Warriors' out there?

Of the eight Archetypes that Ashes offers, or even of the 64 classes, where do you want them to go for their 'blood fix'? We know that they exist. What do you want those players to do?

As a member of the 'Blood Fueled Warriors' club myself, I would say they have to put it on either warrior or rogue and make it an augment type just like fire or shock for the mage. That way, it can be applied for all classes, just like all classes can add a fire or shock theme to them by choosing those augment types from the mage secondary class. I really want to play a blood mage, but you can't put it on mage since it's only a niche mage fantasy compared to a fire mage or an ice mage, and the mage already has 4 augment types. Putting it on the warrior is probably a good solution as it fits the class and gives the warrior an interesting augment type.

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