What is the PURPOSE of a 'trash mob', to you?

For the sake of discussion, a 'trash mob' is anything that will usually die without posing any credible threat to a player (let's say solo or duo).

If that's not clear enough, think 'anything that can be killed by a bot' (for people who think bots are simplistic, and for anyone else who knows that they aren't, I figure the first definition is enough).

Why do games have these? If you prefer that a game has these, please clarify what they are adding to the game experience, for you personally.

Every mob can 'become this' if you get high enough level over it, but in at least some games, you also don't get any exp for them. So assume that the game 'intends' for you to kill them.

Thanks.

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Noaani

George_Black wrote: »

Mental gymnastics. There are no trash mobs. There are bad mmos
/thread

I mean, you can say this if you like - but the bulk of the mobs that players farm in L2 would be what players in other games call trash mobs.

Sure, you have a chance to drop good items, but so did every mob in EQ2, yet many of them were considered trash.

Thus, if you want to consider the existence of trash mobs to be the signature of a bad MMORPG, L2 would need to be among the worst.

George_Black

Oh noanni.. I told you, every time you ~trash~ talk L2 (without knowing what the hell you are talking about) you seem like that one kid that didnt get invited to the cool party and ever since you are bitter. Stop...

Mag7spy

Pretty much is like every pvp mmorpg almost all mobs are trash mobs. And a boss is a giant sponge that don't do much. Main reason why I'm looking forward to AoC since it will have some actual mechanics / difficulty (based on what they say).

Noaani

George_Black wrote: »

Oh noanni.. I told you, every time you ~trash~ talk L2 (without knowing what the hell you are talking about) you seem like that one kid that didnt get invited to the cool party and ever since you are bitter. Stop...

I'm not sure why you think I am bitter.

The description of farming mobs from you, NiKr and many others I've spoken to about L2 over the years paints a fairly clear picture that those mobs would be considered trash mobs in any other game.

I mean, mobs that respawn often, have a low percentage chance to drop anything of value and are easy to kill. That is a trash mob.

George_Black

Noaani wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

Oh noanni.. I told you, every time you ~trash~ talk L2 (without knowing what the hell you are talking about) you seem like that one kid that didnt get invited to the cool party and ever since you are bitter. Stop...

I'm not sure why you think I am bitter.

The description of farming mobs from you, NiKr and many others I've spoken to about L2 over the years paints a fairly clear picture that those mobs would be considered trash mobs in any other game.

I mean, mobs that respawn often, have a low percentage chance to drop anything of value and are easy to kill. That is a trash mob.

Ye, if you were given the description of an ocean you'd be confused with a desert. Not my problem.

Anyway let's get constructive...

Examples of bad mobs from other mmos:
ESO and 100% of their overland mobs that did not drop leather or were currently not part of a quest.
Not only they were of no threat it terms of power, they were also completely skippable. In addition, the overland dungeon mobs were annoying with stuns and snares but they were still not a danger even if 1000 of them piled on you.

FF14: most mobs took too long to kill and most of the time they did not need to be engaged at all. They were no fun or useful at all.

RazThemun

Filler to make the area feel more dangerous.

Otherwise you would have 10 random world bosses roaming the world needing to die. Why not add some trash mobs to change things up so the world does not feel so empty.

What I do not care for is creating trash mobs that can just be one shot.... make it to where they always pose some sort of threat... otherwise why have them there?

Noaani

George_Black wrote: »

Examples of bad mobs from other mmos:

We're not talking about bad mobs, we are talking about trash mobs.

The list above are indeed all trash mobs, but in ESO (can't speak to FFXIV), mobs that do drop leather and/or are part of a current quest can also be trash mobs.

Sathrago

Trash mobs are there for a few reasons, the first one being the largest reason. They are there to make sure the area feels like a part of the "world". These are just regular X and Ys, going about their day be it doing satanic blood rituals or pickin on the local faeries. Without them you just dont have a world built properly. This is regardless of their strength mind you. Dark souls had "trash" mobs but everything could easily kill you.

So that leads me to the second point. Trash mobs are pure obstacles that have little to no reward incentive in killing them other than them posing a threat to you either by wasting your time or actual death if you do not deal with them. There are exceptions where professions gain materials from trash mobs, but they do not innately drop valuable items or a large amount of exp individually.

My final point would be that Trash mobs are normally seen as what you farm for exp. Because they are plentiful in number they are used as filler in the gaps between quests to attain exp. They are not the only way, but one of the most common ways to do it.

So TLDR: World building, obstacles, and Filler exp grinding.

George_Black

Noaani wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

Examples of bad mobs from other mmos:

We're not talking about bad mobs, we are talking about trash mobs.

The list above are indeed all trash mobs, but in ESO (can't speak to FFXIV), mobs that do drop leather and/or are part of a current quest can also be trash mobs.

There is no point talking about trash mobs' purpose in bad mmos and what role futility should play in AoC. Talk about what to avoid in AoC.

Noaani

George_Black wrote: »

Talk about what to avoid in AoC.

Why?

That isn't the purpose of this thread at all.

Diamaht

Azherae wrote: »

For the sake of discussion, a 'trash mob' is anything that will usually die without posing any credible threat to a player (let's say solo or duo).

If that's not clear enough, think 'anything that can be killed by a bot' (for people who think bots are simplistic, and for anyone else who knows that they aren't, I figure the first definition is enough).

Why do games have these? If you prefer that a game has these, please clarify what they are adding to the game experience, for you personally.

Every mob can 'become this' if you get high enough level over it, but in at least some games, you also don't get any exp for them. So assume that the game 'intends' for you to kill them.

Thanks.

The issue always revolves around credible threat.

If they can kill you with enough time or enough numbers they can be a fun obstacle to navigate while also being a good source of common loot. Examples would be Classic WoW and Eve.

If they can't kill you they become a tiresome obstacle to what you'd rather be doing. Examples would be current SWTOR and FFXIV.

Otr

Azherae wrote: »

Why do games have these? If you prefer that a game has these, please clarify what they are adding to the game experience, for you personally.

I once seen a tiny rat. I had no idea if is killable or not. when I killed it I got an over damage achievement. Why the achievement was there and why they add rats in cities which can be killed?

Maybe some mobs become trash after expansions are added or because they implement them and before release they just change what they drop and whatever.

Diablo is based on the concept that you kill many weak NPCs or you just run through them.
If a map is large, with stronger mobs you would slow down your travel time.
With no mobs at all, you would have an empty world unless is populated by NPCs doing their stuff.

Edit: the travel time is also an interesting concept to consider. If we reduce the game just to combat to have interesting fight and get their drops, we don't need travel at all. We can just have a 20s cutscene which shows us traveling to the place. Or a portal. Or we get smaller maps.

Ludullu

Otr wrote: »

Edit: the travel time is also an interesting concept to consider. If we reduce the game just to combat to have interesting fight and get their drops, we don't need travel at all. We can just have a 20s cutscene which shows us traveling to the place. Or a portal. Or we get smaller maps.

Mob placement solves that though. And with fewer stronger mobs instead of groups of weaker ones you need even less space for those mobs, so you have more space for player movement.

Otr

NiKr wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

Edit: the travel time is also an interesting concept to consider. If we reduce the game just to combat to have interesting fight and get their drops, we don't need travel at all. We can just have a 20s cutscene which shows us traveling to the place. Or a portal. Or we get smaller maps.

Mob placement solves that though. And with fewer stronger mobs instead of groups of weaker ones you need even less space for those mobs, so you have more space for player movement.

I was talking in general not in the context of AoC with the reduced TTK for average mobs.
Trash does not mean average. Average is at the middle. Trash would be the lowest level or filler which maybe does not even attack players. Does not take space away from player movement.
But yes, from the perspective of players who optimize to speed run to get to some end goal, anything which they avoid is worthless to them.

One thing occurred to me is that some players like to RP. Maybe the presence of such trash mobs help them.

Map size, travel mechanic, space needed, map emptiness are design aspects which are decided in advance to fit the vision of developers. Different developers and players have different opinions.
In some games every single mob has to serve one or more purposes, to make the game more complex. Can be that nothing is added just for immersion because that's how they want it to be. Others prefer to spend time on little useless things too just for immersion, which some players appreciate.

Korela

If your class is bad in single target or brings low value in party in PvE, but you can do AoE dmg, then you can farm packs of trash mobs. Sel Mahum Training Grounds it is.

Dygz

Otr wrote: »

from the perspective of players who optimize to speed run to get to some end goal, anything which they avoid is worthless to them.

One thing occurred to me is that some players like to RP. Maybe the presence of such trash mobs help them.

100%.

Percimes

Bad trash mobs: Dynasty Warriors foot soldiers.

Good trash mobs: Minions type monsters in D&D 3rd 4th edition and up.

What make the minions interesting are that, aside from having only 1 hp, they hit about as hard a normal monsters, they have about the same armour class as normal monsters, they occupy space on the grid and so they interfere with the players' movement (blocking or attacks of opportunities) and they can give allies bonus such as flanking... And players must spend actions, spells, short rests, potions, etc. because of them.

In short: even with 1 hp, their defence and potential damage make them a real threat.

If that kind of purpose was to be transposed to a MMO, we'd have interesting trash mobs. Sentries and patrols who run back to get more when they aggro instead of joining the fray. Healers staying at range. DPSs hitting as hard as the rest but with lower HPs...

I'd be a happy raccoon with those.

edit: had to open some old books to make a correction...

Aszkalon

Can we agree that for example most if not ALL Goblins in the Fighter Presentation are probably on "Trashmob-Level" ?? You all know what this means, right ?

Sometimes -> the so called Trashmobs are just the many, many Mobs that fill the World. And for a good Reason. We would all bore of such a grandiose, vast World - if it wouldn't be filled with Mobs we can interact with.

The Minotauer-Questgiver. Many of his hostile Clan Members a bit further,

i wish for a living World populated by many Beings i can challenge or do Quests for.

And Trashmobs are the Reason why for Example a "Goblin Camp" or Ruin filled with Goblins, shouldn't be empty. Plus i personally would love Area's i can not clear completely alone. Like there is so many "Trash(lol) Mobs" that i alone would either have a nigh Impossible time, or just no way of challenging them alone.

Dygz

Typically Goblins are not trash when you first leave the starting areas.
And then once they begin to start being "trash" you've moved to a new zone.
Originally, trash mobs were the ones that are around to distract you from the boss.

Vaknar

Responding directly to the OP here:

Where I've seen some helpful trash mobs is leading up to some boss fights. I've always liked when these creatures replicate boss abilities or mechanics, or a simplified version of them. I've found that it helps build muscle memory for when it's time to interact with that boss. Sometimes that's the only way my guildies will bother learning the mechanics 🙃

Does anybody else see these mechanics, or find them helpful in MMOs and/or RPGs that you enjoy?

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