Bard as Non-Healing Support - What does that mean to you?

Hi all!

Long time follower of the game, first time posting here. I've always been a lover of bards in mmo's, especially from back in my EQ days. The idea of a character whose sole role is to make everyone else around them better is super cool to me. DPS'ers want to blow stuff up, tanks want to be unkillable, healers want to save the day, but what does "non-healing support" mean to other players out there?

The AoC wiki describes Bards as "a non-healing support role that makes a party better as a whole through a range of buff-oriented and proximity based abilities."

I enjoy playing a character whose buffs are wanted by the whole party, but it's been so long since we've seen a good Bard in an MMO that I am super psyched to see what Intrepid comes up with...especially after blowing us all away with the fighter showcase.

I think an interesting way for Bards to be more than just a "buffbot" or "mana battery" would be to make use of the combo system in AoC. In the Fighter showcase, we saw that certain abilities would cause "shaken" which could then trigger "tripped" status, which could then be capitalized with Maim (I think that was the combo). What if the Bard was the premier "setup" character who specialized in setting up status effects for other classes to "proc?"

For example:
Fighter needs shaken status to trip but his ability is on cooldown, Bard can apply shaken with "Horn of Terror".
Mage needs burning or frozen to "shatter" an ability, Bard has an "Elemental Invocation" that causes all 3 elemental status effects.
Tank needs snare to setup his "knockdown" ability, Bard uses "Chains of Dissonance" to apply a snare.

The idea would be that the Bard has little ability to "finish" combos, but has the most varied ways to "setup" most combos for other classes. Would that be a unique way of giving Bards more "non-healing support" abilities?

I'm curious what other people think Bards should be, and I CANNOT WAIT for the Bard showcase, whenever that happens!

Rand.

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Comments

Swifty00

I believe the Bard will have some healing, just not as much as a cleric.

HybridSR

I don't like the idea of Bards doing everything, because quite honestly I dislike the idea of a party NEEDING a Bard to be optimal. I wish we could mix whatever and make it work, but obviously, that's incredibly hard and we will figure out what's optimal pretty quickly. I just don't want them to do everything. If they heal, buff, debuff and have CC, well then every party needs one and that to me is a fun killer. That also means that 50% of the Bards ingame will be dual box bots that will just use their buffs on cooldown and go back AFK and that's just fucking awful (going to take advantage of this post and repeat once again: Dual Box is CANCER and turns 50% of support classes ingame to afk bots. Please reconsider this. Nobody needs to Dual Box. If you want an alt, just make another character in the same account. @StevenSharif , please reconsider).

I never really played a Bard, but I'd love for them to be a strong support class with some AoE CC but MOSTLY just having strong AoE buffs that MAYBE could get even stronger for the party if the bard plays a tune and hits the right keys at the right timing or some shit like that.

Ludullu

HybridSR wrote: »

I never really played a Bard, but I'd love for them to be a strong support class with some AoE CC but MOSTLY just having strong AoE buffs that MAYBE could get even stronger for the party if the bard plays a tune and hits the right keys at the right timing or some shit like that.

Buffs alone would highly increase their potential to be dualboxers, so you can't escape that unless you made the bard completely useless. Weak healing and/or weak debuffs wouldn't make it a dualbox archetype any more than strong defensive buffs and aggro make the tank a dualboxer.

In the past "one of each archetype" was said to be the direction of the "optimal" design for a party setup. I dunno if that has changed since or not, but it's quite likely that we'll have synergistic abilities or good effects if we have all 8 archetypes in a party, so those who think that they can dualbox w/o software will try to do that.

It'll be fun killing such people with normal groups, so I'm looking forward to that.

Rand118

HybridSR wrote: »

I don't like the idea of Bards doing everything, because quite honestly I dislike the idea of a party NEEDING a Bard to be optimal.

Won't every group need a tank and a cleric to optimal? I don't see the problem with adding a Bard to that list of "needed to be optimal." The reason I don't see a problem with that is you don't NEED an optimal group to do content. We've seen Steven and the dev's using only 1 tank, 1 healer, and 1 or 2 dps to do events and group quests with few issues (like in the commissions showcase and the fighter showcase). Honestly, I LIKE the idea of certain classes being needed to be optimal...it gives players a reason to play those classes. If no classes were needed to be optimal, we'd have another BDO where everyone is basically a DPS class that can solo everything, and I got bored of that super fast.

I agree with you that having afk buff bots is bad, I played plenty of EQ where people would 2/3/4 box shamans and enchanters just to give the best buffs to their main characters and solo content. I think that's pretty lame and takes the "Multiplayer" out of MMO, but I also feel like that's a hard thing to combat. What I will say is that making support buffs a more active mechanic (like you have to hit an attack to apply a buff or make buffs last shorter time periods so you can't just "apply buff every 30 minutes then afk") sounds interesting to me. I loved EQ bard because it was an active class that required you to constantly twist your songs to keep your buffs active on your party...can't really afk if each buff only last 4-5 seconds (this is an extreme, of course).

NiKr wrote: »

" In the past "one of each archetype" was said to be the direction of the "optimal" design for a party setup.

I really like this design choice and I hope it's still what they're going for. Class and role diversity is one of my favorite things about good MMO's.

Saabynator

Im not sure on the idea. I would love for bards to have some good active abilities, not just setup everyone elses moves. Active abilities, like snare, root, mezz and so on. For me, a bard is like a medium dmg, medium durability, high utility class. They allrdy talked about how bards vil have buffs, that they activate with hits. Stuff like extra dmg, attack speed and the like. But it would be nice to actually have some actives.

Songcaller

Imagine a dual wield bard getting double procs on buffs.

StewBad

I like the idea of stacking bard buffs, but in a different way.

What if bard songs/buffs (whatever vessel the benefits are delivered) could be applied in a specific order to create an improved "combined" buff?

There could be different combinations of abilities to create different combined buffs, or even a different order of the same ability to change the combined buff slightly. This would, in my opinion, have to be a minimum of 3 or 4 buffs in a certain order

Example:

Lets say the bards HoT ability heals a small amount every 6 seconds. Their weapon enchant ability imbues the weapons of their party with a small DD proc. Their attack speed ability buffs the party's attack speed, probably a small amount. But when combined in a certain order, it builds into a different buff.

Heal over time --> Weapon Enchant --> Attack Speed = Heal proc on your party's weapons.

Rand118

StewBad wrote: »

I like the idea of stacking bard buffs, but in a different way...

What if bard songs/buffs (whatever vessel the benefits are delivered) could be applied in a specific order to create an improved "combined" buff?...

Heal over time --> Weapon Enchant --> Attack Speed = Heal proc on your party's weapons.

Really cool idea! Anything to make the buffing more interesting than "cast buff, buff applies" would be very fun to me. It could get super complicated if there were too many combinations of buffs, but combos like this would be a cool mechanic to learn and create interesting interactions. Nice Suggestion!

itwashear

I think support classes should be the best at controlling the overall fight. Tank is busy trying to hold aggro, healers eyes are glued to health bars, and DPS are busy min maxing. supports are the ones that can see the whole fight and what's going wrong/right and needs skills to effect what's going on. for example a patrol is coming? something that reduces aggro range, or run speed to move out of the path, or a mez effect, or a root to hold them. Is the fight going well? then things that help the fight go faster or need less downtime to the next pull. there a tons of things a support can do with the right tools that can drastically increase both kill speed and group safety.

Saabynator

StewBad wrote: »

I like the idea of stacking bard buffs, but in a different way.

What if bard songs/buffs (whatever vessel the benefits are delivered) could be applied in a specific order to create an improved "combined" buff?

There could be different combinations of abilities to create different combined buffs, or even a different order of the same ability to change the combined buff slightly. This would, in my opinion, have to be a minimum of 3 or 4 buffs in a certain order

Example:

Lets say the bards HoT ability heals a small amount every 6 seconds. Their weapon enchant ability imbues the weapons of their party with a small DD proc. Their attack speed ability buffs the party's attack speed, probably a small amount. But when combined in a certain order, it builds into a different buff.

Heal over time --> Weapon Enchant --> Attack Speed = Heal proc on your party's weapons.

I think its to far ahead in development for this, but its a cool freaking idea! Investing in certain abilties could make good sense here. Also, bards could have different buffs in the same raid, making them more viable in numbers. Good idea dude.

Probably could take a small step further. Say there is buffs that are always on, like the HoT, and abilities that are on for lke 10 secs, with using an ability. Say there is 3 things that could buff the HoT. Using one move will turn it into lifetab, as you suggested, for 10 secs. One will make an armor buff for 10 secs, and another will give you a dmg shield. After 10 secs, it turns into the regular HoT buff. Just spitballin

Drezden

I think BD or SWS like L2

nanfoodle

I have to admit I'm expecting allot when it comes to the Bard. So far IS has done a good job of making classes have an intriguing skill set and a flare that really pushes towards modern play style. Like the Archer and Fighters movement skills that include verticality. I really hope the Bard has that same level of design.

Rand118

nanfoodle wrote: »

I have to admit I'm expecting allot when it comes to the Bard. So far IS has done a good job of making classes have an intriguing skill set and a flare that really pushes towards modern play style. Like the Archer and Fighters movement skills that include verticality. I really hope the Bard has that same level of design.

I agree, I haven't been this hyped for an MMO since college and I was hanging out in Blizzard's forum in the WoW beta waiting room, lol. I was always disappointed when there was no Bard in WoW, and now I can't wait to see what Intrepid comes up with. The idea of status effect combinations, or buff combinations, or more creative CC options feels like the door is wide open for AoC to do some new and unique things with Bard and support gameplay.

Sengarden

itwashear wrote: »

I think support classes should be the best at controlling the overall fight. Tank is busy trying to hold aggro, healers eyes are glued to health bars, and DPS are busy min maxing. supports are the ones that can see the whole fight and what's going wrong/right and needs skills to effect what's going on. for example a patrol is coming? something that reduces aggro range, or run speed to move out of the path, or a mez effect, or a root to hold them. Is the fight going well? then things that help the fight go faster or need less downtime to the next pull. there a tons of things a support can do with the right tools that can drastically increase both kill speed and group safety.

I'm not sure about reducing aggro range (the musical talents of a bard aren't likely to include making your location less noticeable), but overall I agree with this sentiment. Most classes only have to worry about one thing. Tanks hold aggro, healers watch health bars (primarily one or two), and DPS are focusing on rotation and avoiding boss mechanics. I think bards will be able to help anyone.

They can buff tanks, healers, or DPS by giving them resistances, increasing resource generation, increasing crit chance, lowering others' cooldowns, increasing move speed, etc. They can also mock and demoralize enemies with debuffs or interrupt fight mechanics, put enemies to sleep, slow enemies, drain them of resources, etc. They'll have to choose what part of each encounter needs their support and when in order to best utilize their own resources.

I think their instrument should be an off-hand tool that requires a certain key press to be swapped between while wielding your main weapon and vice versa. There should be a GCD-esque delay whenever you swap between musical abilities and traditional combat abilities. Not strenuously long, but long enough to feel natural with a quick character animation and automatic ability-bar swap UI animation. Long enough to require some strategic thinking in tense encounters.

Weapon abilities are tricky, because typically, the bard's iconic flair is music and some supplementary magic. Some versions like the college of swords bard in D&D have more of a sailor/noble/merchant type vibe to them with light to medium armor proficiency, rapiers or short swords, and generally play like a mix between a fighter and a rogue with nimble footwork and quick, successive strikes with the ability to switch quickly between multiple enemies and do a bit of light cone-range AoE.

However, the opportunity for heavier bards is also very interesting. I could imagine a wilder-looking bard character that plays a large drum and carries a two handed mace, wearing medium-weight berserker-style armor that allows them to dive into the action and move fairly quickly for a two-handed weapon wielder at the cost of a lower armor class while balancing their damage and vulnerability with self and group buffs and enemy debuffs using their war drum when appropriate, dipping in and out of combat when able, or hyping themselves up before engaging if running solo.

Then there's what I view the traditional bard as - a musical magician ranged character. So when you switch weapons, it would be to a staff or wand, and your character deals magical damage similar to a mage, but perhaps with a musical flair to the visual style and sound effects, and also perhaps with a certain niche. For example, mages could choose to focus on single target or AOE damage, but bard casters are masters of projection, so they're only able to cast AOE magic and AOE healing with the assistance of magically empowered vocal talents, the spell casts being accompanied by lyrical melodies.

I never played a bard character until BG3, and have since become heavily invested in the archetype. I really hope they offer a lot of specialization options and give bards some more serious/badass abilities, animations, and SFX/VFX like I know they deserve just like every other archetype,

Drezden

BD and SWS from L2

MissionCreep

Rand118 wrote: »

What if the Bard was the premier "setup" character who specialized in setting up status effects for other classes to "proc?"

...
The idea would be that the Bard has little ability to "finish" combos, but has the most varied ways to "setup" most combos for other classes.

I don't mind if the Bard has access to the most (or all) kinds of ongoing effects and damage types, if that can help the party in some way. But I don't want them to design a game around team combo+finishers AT ALL. I've done that in at least one MMORPG and I hated it.

I think if that's how their combat was planned to work, we would have heard about it by now over the past 6 years or whatever. Even when they can't show us features, they tell us frequently what their vision is.

(Again I'm talking about team combos and finishers, obviously each class/archetype will have their own.)

Rand118

MissionCreep wrote: »

But I don't want them to design a game around team combo+finishers AT ALL. I've done that in at least one MMORPG and I hated it.

Am I mistaken or didn't they show team combo's in the healer or tank live stream? Healer had some AoE ability to cause "shaken" then the tank had some ability that would "stun" the "shaken" enemies? I like the idea of group members synergizing their abilities, although I can't think of any MMO's I've played that had a similar mechanic. I've definitely played MOBA's (like League of Legends or Smite) that had a similar mechanic. What MMO did you play that had group-based combo mechanics?

Iskiab

Rand118 wrote: »

MissionCreep wrote: »

But I don't want them to design a game around team combo+finishers AT ALL. I've done that in at least one MMORPG and I hated it.

Am I mistaken or didn't they show team combo's in the healer or tank live stream? Healer had some AoE ability to cause "shaken" then the tank had some ability that would "stun" the "shaken" enemies? I like the idea of group members synergizing their abilities, although I can't think of any MMO's I've played that had a similar mechanic. I've definitely played MOBA's (like League of Legends or Smite) that had a similar mechanic. What MMO did you play that had group-based combo mechanics?

EQ2 tried it (badly) at release, they dropped it later on.

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