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Feedback on the change in the Artisan System.
Peregrinum
Member
In the November 2023 live, we received new information about the Ashes artisan system. With this new information, we learned of a sudden change in the freedom to choose the professions we can master (Tier 5). At first it was said that we could only master a single profession of a single type (gathering, processing or crafting) and have lower levels of other professions limited to the same type as the profession we chose to specialize in. Then it was said that we could master up to two professions of the same type, while continuing to have lower-level professions limited to that same type that we specialized in. And now, with this new change, we will be able to master (Tier 5) two professions of any type, have three professions of any type in Tier 4, have four professions of any type in Tier 3, have five professions of any type in Tier 2 and all professions in Tier 1.
This change, in my opinion and that of the people I talk to who are also following the project, was not a good one. Because it had already been pointed out by Steven himself that Intrepid really wants to value the efforts of players who dedicate themselves mainly or even exclusively to the game's professions and this change (in my opinion) reduces the “weight” of the exclusive dedication of a player who focuses only on the artisan system. I know that Intrepid prioritizes freedom of choice for players, allowing for many different ways to play, build and enjoy everything that Ashes has to offer. But it's also clear that Intrepid is creating Ashes with a focus on the collective, on cooperation between players, on clan teamwork, on “mutual dependence”. And this change in the context of the crafter system runs counter to this goal of focusing on the collective, because it makes it possible for players to be quite self-sufficient. With this change, a player will be able to collect a material, process that material and even create the desired final item completely on their own. Before, “the whole process” of creating an item was impossible for just one player, but now, considering the full potential of the current proposal, it is possible to do this whole process even with Tier 4 items/equipment (which can already be considered “end-game” equipment).
I recognize that being able to master only one profession at Tier 5 can be excessively limiting, which is why I suggest that you at least test the other proposal (prior to the current proposal), of being able to master up to two professions of a single type and also have lower-level professions limited to that same type. In simple terms, I'll outline a few reasons why I believe this proposal is a better option for the Ashes:
1) The previous proposal would reinforce mutual dependence between players.
As I mentioned in the text above, it is undeniable that Ashes has a “focus” on the collective, just look at the systems, the content, the level of difficulty, the way it has been designed is geared towards joint effort. It's even possible to say that trying to play Ashes solo is a mistake. Bearing in mind the importance of this player unity in dealing with the systems and contents of Ashes, I say that the proposal to limit the mastering of professions to a single type (gathering, processing or crafting) would reinforce this same mutual dependence between players that Intrepid wants for the project. Because it would generate a constant and inevitable “cycle”, where the gatherer provides the material that the processor needs and the processor passes the processed material on to the creator to produce the final item. As well as, of course, reinforcing the collective sense and teamwork of clans (both large and small), which would need to organize themselves properly to cover all the professions necessary for the progress of the clan as a whole.
And while on the one hand this “limitation” of professions would make things difficult for players, on the other it would end up reinforcing the need for communication between players. And who knows if, in the long run, this need for communication wouldn't consequently create better coexistence among the community?
2) The previous proposal would put more value on professions and the players dedicated to them.
We know that there are always players who, unlike other players who enjoy all the PvP content and focus on it (I'm one of them), are more focused on PvE content and also on creating items (even in a PvX context like in Ashes). And as much as the latest proposal on the artisan system offers players greater freedom of choice, I believe that it could end up “trivializing” professions as often happens in other games (and Steven himself has already stated that he doesn't want that to happen). Because once all players have access to so many professions simultaneously, players who want to dedicate themselves completely to the professions would no longer be as valued as they could be if there were more limitations on choice. I say this because, to put it objectively: In a game where any player can master processing and crafting professions to the maximum and have gathering professions at just below the maximum level, the value of a blacksmith who has mastered his profession would be extremely lower than in a game where you only have to choose one from the gathering, processing and crafting branches and still only have to choose to master two of the game's 22 professions.
3) This proposal could not be tested by the community before it was dropped.
I recently made another forum post about “reasons to have high TTK” and this was one of the points I mentioned there too. I know that during the development of the project, many things can be changed, modified and even removed. But when it comes to proposals like this, which involve important systems that haven't yet been tested by the community, wouldn't it be better to first test each proposal before making sudden changes like this?
I know that Intrepid values our feedback as a community (because the company has already demonstrated this by listening to feedback and applying changes in some cases that were necessary) and that's why I feel really motivated to post my opinions on the forum in a respectful way to the team, as it should be. I also know that I don't speak for all players, because many may prefer the greater freedom of the current proposal on the artisan system to the proposal I'm defending here. But just as I asked in the post about TTK, I ask that during the upcoming Alpha 2, if possible, the community can test this “more limiting” proposal about professions and have enough time to give feedback on the subject with more “propriety”.
This change, in my opinion and that of the people I talk to who are also following the project, was not a good one. Because it had already been pointed out by Steven himself that Intrepid really wants to value the efforts of players who dedicate themselves mainly or even exclusively to the game's professions and this change (in my opinion) reduces the “weight” of the exclusive dedication of a player who focuses only on the artisan system. I know that Intrepid prioritizes freedom of choice for players, allowing for many different ways to play, build and enjoy everything that Ashes has to offer. But it's also clear that Intrepid is creating Ashes with a focus on the collective, on cooperation between players, on clan teamwork, on “mutual dependence”. And this change in the context of the crafter system runs counter to this goal of focusing on the collective, because it makes it possible for players to be quite self-sufficient. With this change, a player will be able to collect a material, process that material and even create the desired final item completely on their own. Before, “the whole process” of creating an item was impossible for just one player, but now, considering the full potential of the current proposal, it is possible to do this whole process even with Tier 4 items/equipment (which can already be considered “end-game” equipment).
I recognize that being able to master only one profession at Tier 5 can be excessively limiting, which is why I suggest that you at least test the other proposal (prior to the current proposal), of being able to master up to two professions of a single type and also have lower-level professions limited to that same type. In simple terms, I'll outline a few reasons why I believe this proposal is a better option for the Ashes:
1) The previous proposal would reinforce mutual dependence between players.
As I mentioned in the text above, it is undeniable that Ashes has a “focus” on the collective, just look at the systems, the content, the level of difficulty, the way it has been designed is geared towards joint effort. It's even possible to say that trying to play Ashes solo is a mistake. Bearing in mind the importance of this player unity in dealing with the systems and contents of Ashes, I say that the proposal to limit the mastering of professions to a single type (gathering, processing or crafting) would reinforce this same mutual dependence between players that Intrepid wants for the project. Because it would generate a constant and inevitable “cycle”, where the gatherer provides the material that the processor needs and the processor passes the processed material on to the creator to produce the final item. As well as, of course, reinforcing the collective sense and teamwork of clans (both large and small), which would need to organize themselves properly to cover all the professions necessary for the progress of the clan as a whole.
And while on the one hand this “limitation” of professions would make things difficult for players, on the other it would end up reinforcing the need for communication between players. And who knows if, in the long run, this need for communication wouldn't consequently create better coexistence among the community?
2) The previous proposal would put more value on professions and the players dedicated to them.
We know that there are always players who, unlike other players who enjoy all the PvP content and focus on it (I'm one of them), are more focused on PvE content and also on creating items (even in a PvX context like in Ashes). And as much as the latest proposal on the artisan system offers players greater freedom of choice, I believe that it could end up “trivializing” professions as often happens in other games (and Steven himself has already stated that he doesn't want that to happen). Because once all players have access to so many professions simultaneously, players who want to dedicate themselves completely to the professions would no longer be as valued as they could be if there were more limitations on choice. I say this because, to put it objectively: In a game where any player can master processing and crafting professions to the maximum and have gathering professions at just below the maximum level, the value of a blacksmith who has mastered his profession would be extremely lower than in a game where you only have to choose one from the gathering, processing and crafting branches and still only have to choose to master two of the game's 22 professions.
3) This proposal could not be tested by the community before it was dropped.
I recently made another forum post about “reasons to have high TTK” and this was one of the points I mentioned there too. I know that during the development of the project, many things can be changed, modified and even removed. But when it comes to proposals like this, which involve important systems that haven't yet been tested by the community, wouldn't it be better to first test each proposal before making sudden changes like this?
I know that Intrepid values our feedback as a community (because the company has already demonstrated this by listening to feedback and applying changes in some cases that were necessary) and that's why I feel really motivated to post my opinions on the forum in a respectful way to the team, as it should be. I also know that I don't speak for all players, because many may prefer the greater freedom of the current proposal on the artisan system to the proposal I'm defending here. But just as I asked in the post about TTK, I ask that during the upcoming Alpha 2, if possible, the community can test this “more limiting” proposal about professions and have enough time to give feedback on the subject with more “propriety”.
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Comments
If the current version tanks in Alpha 2, then we can look at other proposals (including the pre-November 2023 configuration of artisanship).
Remember that you’re only limited to one master artisanship per character … it’s not a server or accountwide restriction. Players dedicating themselves to multiple artisan masteries will still be able to accomplish that.
This 2nd phase requires caravans so a solo player cannot do that.
Also the high level nodes will have only 1-2 high level crafting stations.
Possibly not everyone will be able to access them just like not every player can get a freehold.
I think the previous system was not described well enough and we were just speculating how it will be.
At first glance you are right but that would require specialized players to have access to work stations to be able to perform their professions. That could make each node to be self sufficient and even players with multiple alts or accounts to not depend on each-other anymore.
The new system clearly forces the movement of resources from node to node. The caravan system was made necessary.
But maybe there will be some issues at node level, with too many willing to produce something but not having the materials, or only one player being able to satisfy the needs of many customers.
t4 isn't endgame, t5 is. no matter what, you still need other chars to get t5 stuff