10-15 SECONDS TTK

According to steven the TTK will be 10-15 seconds , are you guys ready to have fun getting 1 shot all the time , gonna be fun for a lot of the people who loved the game having a 30 sec-1m TTK

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Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

As i said before you are expecting them to know exactly how everything is going to go, it really is not that easy.

The only thing I expect from them is a bell curve of averages. That is, what I assume, Steven gave us. And at the peak of that curve is "10-15s ttk for dps vs dps and ~30s for tank/healer vs tank/healer".

I'm interested in high skill players or the ends of the curve. I'm interested in what the peak of the curve implies. Just as you keep mentioning that high skill players will make the ttk way longer - I keep mentioning that the current ttk implies situations where the ttk is 1s. Both are in accordance with the bell curve.

And I believe that having that peak at 20-25s would remove the chance of the left side of the curve to hit 1s. And if not remove, then at least HIGHLY decrease the chances of. And this was also the initially presented plan for the game's balance (the 30-60s ttk and all that). And so if the plan could change once, I see no reason why it couldn't change back.

Dygz

Azherae wrote: »

If the line on the Wiki that said "Ashes of Creation will have a 30-60 second TTK" had instead, from the beginning, been 'Ashes of Creation will have a TTK that is a bit faster than most MMOs you're probably used to', a LOT of people who are here now would not be here.

Would there be different people? Maybe.

Yeah, this is not as clear of a dealbreaker for me as the Open Seas.
It's closer to Corruption in the sense that I'm skeptical I would enjoy such a quick TTK, but I would need to test it.
I'm not a fan of "Action MMORPGs" - where I consider those to have a speed of combat that feels to me like an FPS or a Hack and Slash. As opposed to having sufficient time to try contemplate and adjust tactics to synergize abilities with others in the group.

But, I'd have to test it to know. (Or watch actual gameplay rather than a dev demo.)

Dygz

My impression is that NiKr is saying the Dev team has to be discussing a variety of permutations - especially since they are all gamers and specifically MMORPG gamers/devs.
And there is a combat team and an experienced Lead Game Designer from one of the most popular MMORPGs.

They don't have to know exactly how everything is going to go. But they should be discussing things in the manner NiKr suggests.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

As i said before you are expecting them to know exactly how everything is going to go, it really is not that easy.

The only thing I expect from them is a bell curve of averages. That is, what I assume, Steven gave us. And at the peak of that curve is "10-15s ttk for dps vs dps and ~30s for tank/healer vs tank/healer".

I'm interested in high skill players or the ends of the curve. I'm interested in what the peak of the curve implies. Just as you keep mentioning that high skill players will make the ttk way longer - I keep mentioning that the current ttk implies situations where the ttk is 1s. Both are in accordance with the bell curve.

And I believe that having that peak at 20-25s would remove the chance of the left side of the curve to hit 1s. And if not remove, then at least HIGHLY decrease the chances of. And this was also the initially presented plan for the game's balance (the 30-60s ttk and all that). And so if the plan could change once, I see no reason why it couldn't change back.

When i say high skill ceiling that means there is larger grey area between players. That means some will be able to stretch to 2 seconds, 4+ etc. OF course builds can make that vary higher to different degrees. Meaning certain situations you could have a higher or lower ttk. (ie first attack doing less dmg to you)

Again you keep glossing over average being mentioned.

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

They don't have to know exactly how everything is going to go. But they should be discussing things in the manner NiKr suggests.

Yep. If my non-professional-designer ass can sit in a chair and come up with a few dozen ways to balance combat and then try and imagine how things would influence each other - Intrepid should be MILES ahead of me in terms of that imagination, not only because they're professional designers who have been doing this for a living for decades, but also because they've had years of playtesting all of those ideas at all stages of the game's development, so they even have a way more practical image of how the encounter would go down if a thing was tweaked or an effect was added.

Now obviously a broader testing would show more details and more applications of those effects, but that's simply perfecting the bell curve rather than suddenly completely flipping the devs' testing upside down.

And if Intrepid have not done all that imagining - then what in the fuck have they been doing the last 7 years? I'd prefer to believe that they have imagined that stuff, have potentially tested that stuff, Steven oversaw (or at least got a report on) that stuff and then he told us the average ttk from their testing/imagining.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again you keep glossing over average being mentioned.

Mag, the only damn thing I've been talking about is averages. "Bell curve" is a near-definition of "average". Where in the hell am I "glossing over it"?

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again you keep glossing over average being mentioned.

Mag, the only damn thing I've been talking about is averages. "Bell curve" is a near-definition of "average". Where in the hell am I "glossing over it"?

Average skill is not the only thing, average gear is what he had directly mentioned.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Average skill is not the only thing, average gear is what he had directly mentioned.

When I say "average" I mean average. The "70% of players will experience the ttk that Steven mentioned" average.

That average includes everything, skill, gear, lvls, whateverthefuckelse.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Average skill is not the only thing, average gear is what he had directly mentioned.

When I say "average" I mean average. The "70% of players will experience the ttk that Steven mentioned" average.

That average includes everything, skill, gear, lvls, whateverthefuckelse.

You aren't including everything, else u would have a break down on each element and how it effects ttk liek ive been doing.

If you can dodge attack u can extend ttk, if you can GEAR to REDUCE certain dmg types you can extend TTK, Party comp can also Reduce TTK.

By this logic a player putting gear on as they level would have a lower TTK than 10 seconds because its otu outfitted against player dmg types.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

You aren't including everything, else u would have a break down on each element and how it effects ttk liek ive been doing.

If you can dodge attack u can extend ttk, if you can GEAR to REDUCE certain dmg types you can extend TTK, Party comp can also Reduce TTK.

By this logic a player putting gear on as they level would have a lower TTK than 10 seconds because its otu outfitted against player dmg types.

Ah, it's one of those times where you try to go deeper into a topic and tell others that they haven't gone deep enough?

Yes, I didn't go deep enough (especially if you completely disregard my post to Depraved). I'm looking at a GAME-WIDE AVERAGE. Literally everything in the game from "lvl1s pvping each other right as they start the game" to "lvl1 char fighting lvl50 fully max char".

The average situation across all of those, in the long run, will be "somewhat equally-progressed players fighting each other", which is exactly what Steven gave the example for.

The entire point of "average" is to include all the things and then point out what the middle point indicates.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You aren't including everything, else u would have a break down on each element and how it effects ttk liek ive been doing.

If you can dodge attack u can extend ttk, if you can GEAR to REDUCE certain dmg types you can extend TTK, Party comp can also Reduce TTK.

By this logic a player putting gear on as they level would have a lower TTK than 10 seconds because its otu outfitted against player dmg types.

Ah, it's one of those times where you try to go deeper into a topic and tell others that they haven't gone deep enough?

Yes, I didn't go deep enough (especially if you completely disregard my post to Depraved). I'm looking at a GAME-WIDE AVERAGE. Literally everything in the game from "lvl1s pvping each other right as they start the game" to "lvl1 char fighting lvl50 fully max char".

The average situation across all of those, in the long run, will be "somewhat equally-progressed players fighting each other", which is exactly what Steven gave the example for.

The entire point of "average" is to include all the things and then point out what the middle point indicates.

Ok we can go this route than sure. So feel he is taking the average of everything into his example from lvl 1-50. So are you of the mind set an average gear player that is lvl 10, an average geared player that is lvl 35 and a averaged gear scored player of lvl 50 have the same TTk or do not based on their progression in the game?

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

So are you of the mind set an average gear player that is lvl 10, an average geared player that is lvl 35 and a averaged gear scored player of lvl 50 have the same TTk or do not based on their progression in the game?

I expect the ttk to become faster at higher lvls, so the currently presented ttk (at supposedly "middle lvls") would be even shorter at max lvl.

If Intrepid decide to give us way more defensive tools than offensive - cool, I'd be all for that. But from all the game's I've seen - the higher the lvl, the faster you can kill your opponent.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

So are you of the mind set an average gear player that is lvl 10, an average geared player that is lvl 35 and a averaged gear scored player of lvl 50 have the same TTk or do not based on their progression in the game?

I expect the ttk to become faster at higher lvls, so the currently presented ttk (at supposedly "middle lvls") would be even shorter at max lvl.

If Intrepid decide to give us way more defensive tools than offensive - cool, I'd be all for that. But from all the game's I've seen - the higher the lvl, the faster you can kill your opponent.

I expect it to be longer in different situations based on builds, team comp and skill. And this is the core of all the pages of our disagreement.

Then i guess we will see if it becomes like bdo more extreme dmg scaling over defense or not. Which means people go evasion builds and have higher ttk.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Then i guess we will see if it becomes like bdo more extreme dmg scaling over defense or not. Which means people go evasion builds and have higher ttk.

Or it could go the way of L2 and only the rogues would have high enough evasion to evade a lot of attacks, though even then only when they're using short-but-strong buffs for evasion.

Also, in L2 mages didn't even miss, unless you were attacking someone who was several levels above you.

And I'm sure there are other games where evasion wasn't as insane as it seemingly was in BDO.

But I would also count such evasion as "a defensive tool", so that's already smth I'd be fine with. I'd just hope that building high into evasion means giving up other stats.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Then i guess we will see if it becomes like bdo more extreme dmg scaling over defense or not. Which means people go evasion builds and have higher ttk.

Or it could go the way of L2 and only the rogues would have high enough evasion to evade a lot of attacks, though even then only when they're using short-but-strong buffs for evasion.

Also, in L2 mages didn't even miss, unless you were attacking someone who was several levels above you.

And I'm sure there are other games where evasion wasn't as insane as it seemingly was in BDO.

But I would also count such evasion as "a defensive tool", so that's already smth I'd be fine with. I'd just hope that building high into evasion means giving up other stats.

No clue there is not enough gearing info out on this game, so i hold back from saying other things until i know more. Even by the end of alpha 2 we might have a better idea but we honestly will still all be noobs. In BDO atleast you didn't notice evasion till you were geared and hit a certain mark that made people miss almost all attacks. Though it eventually got nerfed.

Mag7spy

Perfect video of evasion on bdo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYfK4iV-gQA

Depraved

damn every time i look away, there are 15-20 replies on this thread.

anyway...

nikr and mag sitting on a tree...

Ludullu

Depraved wrote: »

nikr and mag sitting on a tree...

P V Peeing

Saabynator

Depraved wrote: »

damn every time i look away, there are 15-20 replies on this thread.

anyway...

nikr and mag sitting on a tree...

I would say, its hard for Nikr to be taken seriously, when you read his name out loud.

Ludullu

Saabynator wrote: »

I would say, its hard for Nikr to be taken seriously, when you read his name out loud.

Yes, my nickname tends to remind americans (or usa-brainrotted people) about their shitty history, even though my nickname has nothing to do with anything related to said history.

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