CROW3 wrote: » Yep, what @Depraved said above. It’s annoying.
Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven. What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear. My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard.
Noaani wrote: » The basics of gear churn that Ashes is set to have is an existing, working model for games with similar economies - Archeage being the most obvious. The main driver for gear in this economy is the desire for some players to want that additional 1 or 2%, getting that gets exponentially harder and sees the player go through more and more gear.
Dygz wrote: » Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » None of those support a player driven Economy. If there is a finite amount of gear, then it will die off. There needs to be a gear sink that cause players to need new gear always. Otherwise, crafters will stop crafting and people wont level it because it doesnt make any money. Also if they cant support themselves, it makes it harder for them to do it. Resources are useless if there isnt a crafter to build it. Why would there be a finite amount of Gear in Ashes??!!??!! Again... Ashes is a dynamic world, rather than a static one. You don't need destruction to cause a need for new Gear. You just need the currently owned Gear to not always work well, depending on the scenario and environment. Why would Ashes not have Crafters??!!??!!
Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » None of those support a player driven Economy. If there is a finite amount of gear, then it will die off. There needs to be a gear sink that cause players to need new gear always. Otherwise, crafters will stop crafting and people wont level it because it doesnt make any money. Also if they cant support themselves, it makes it harder for them to do it. Resources are useless if there isnt a crafter to build it.
Veeshan wrote: » Noaani wrote: » The basics of gear churn that Ashes is set to have is an existing, working model for games with similar economies - Archeage being the most obvious. The main driver for gear in this economy is the desire for some players to want that additional 1 or 2%, getting that gets exponentially harder and sees the player go through more and more gear. Archage didnt realy work though atleast not when i played it on release, you only need 1 piece of gear and never needed replaced once u git high level unless u risk breaking it to get high + on it which was rare for people to do so crafter turning out weapons at a much much higher rate than they were needed. Archage was slightly better than say WoW i guess since there a small need for replacing weapon when one break breaks but it was to rare to make a crafting economy I do think AoC will be slightly better here since it atleast uses resources to repair so that will help processors/harvesters but it skips weapon/armor crafters though so they hit a wall where there making thing that cant be sold due to everyone at the point of not needing them anymore cause there BIS or what not. Albion probaly did it best for player economy but gear was each come easy go which wont be the case for AoC it seems. So i feel mabinogi would be the best system for AoC which worked this way Each time your repaired a piece of equipment there was a chance the max durability would decrease slightly based on skill of the repairer (ranged from 90%-99%) for each point of dura repaired to fail and lower the max dura by that much. This creates a situation where the gear needs to be replaced eventually when max dura gets to low. You could expand on this to a degree by allowing you to merge dmg items with crafted gear of same teir to regain some max durability that was lost this would keep a demand for crafted armor/weapons and allow people to keep X gear by refrshing it durability when it low. Either way without a gear sink for crafted items player economy for crafters dont work
Noaani wrote: » At that point, it wasn't uncommon to see someone blow through 20+ of an item at celestial quality in a sitting, trying to get to divine or epic. When players are buying then destroying 20+ of an item in a day, the player driven economy thrives under it.
Noaani wrote: » Veeshan wrote: » Noaani wrote: » The basics of gear churn that Ashes is set to have is an existing, working model for games with similar economies - Archeage being the most obvious. The main driver for gear in this economy is the desire for some players to want that additional 1 or 2%, getting that gets exponentially harder and sees the player go through more and more gear. Archage didnt realy work though atleast not when i played it on release, you only need 1 piece of gear and never needed replaced once u git high level unless u risk breaking it to get high + on it which was rare for people to do so crafter turning out weapons at a much much higher rate than they were needed. Archage was slightly better than say WoW i guess since there a small need for replacing weapon when one break breaks but it was to rare to make a crafting economy I do think AoC will be slightly better here since it atleast uses resources to repair so that will help processors/harvesters but it skips weapon/armor crafters though so they hit a wall where there making thing that cant be sold due to everyone at the point of not needing them anymore cause there BIS or what not. Albion probaly did it best for player economy but gear was each come easy go which wont be the case for AoC it seems. So i feel mabinogi would be the best system for AoC which worked this way Each time your repaired a piece of equipment there was a chance the max durability would decrease slightly based on skill of the repairer (ranged from 90%-99%) for each point of dura repaired to fail and lower the max dura by that much. This creates a situation where the gear needs to be replaced eventually when max dura gets to low. You could expand on this to a degree by allowing you to merge dmg items with crafted gear of same teir to regain some max durability that was lost this would keep a demand for crafted armor/weapons and allow people to keep X gear by refrshing it durability when it low. Either way without a gear sink for crafted items player economy for crafters dont work If I remember right, you left the game very early. I want to say around the time of the thunderstruck tree change. At that point in time, the games economy wasn't even properly up and running. One thing I will always give XL props on is that they knew how to easy a games economy along. Realistically, the games economy wasn't fully functional (at the top level, at least) until about a year in to a new server release. At that point, it wasn't uncommon to see someone blow through 20+ of an item at celestial quality in a sitting, trying to get to divine or epic. When players are buying then destroying 20+ of an item in a day, the player driven economy thrives under it. This is a part of the reason why I have always said gear in Ashes needs to be somewhat worthwhile - if gear isn't worthwhile - if spending that time and money for a small shot at a 2% upgrade to one piece of gear isn't worth it - then the economy will fall.
Veeshan wrote: » i played long enough to see multiple people quit the game due to there +7/8/9 weapon breaking on them on an upgrade and never come back
NiKr wrote: » Veeshan wrote: » i played long enough to see multiple people quit the game due to there +7/8/9 weapon breaking on them on an upgrade and never come back I never understood those people. If you're not ready to fail - why even attempt it?
Veeshan wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Veeshan wrote: » Noaani wrote: » The basics of gear churn that Ashes is set to have is an existing, working model for games with similar economies - Archeage being the most obvious. The main driver for gear in this economy is the desire for some players to want that additional 1 or 2%, getting that gets exponentially harder and sees the player go through more and more gear. Archage didnt realy work though atleast not when i played it on release, you only need 1 piece of gear and never needed replaced once u git high level unless u risk breaking it to get high + on it which was rare for people to do so crafter turning out weapons at a much much higher rate than they were needed. Archage was slightly better than say WoW i guess since there a small need for replacing weapon when one break breaks but it was to rare to make a crafting economy I do think AoC will be slightly better here since it atleast uses resources to repair so that will help processors/harvesters but it skips weapon/armor crafters though so they hit a wall where there making thing that cant be sold due to everyone at the point of not needing them anymore cause there BIS or what not. Albion probaly did it best for player economy but gear was each come easy go which wont be the case for AoC it seems. So i feel mabinogi would be the best system for AoC which worked this way Each time your repaired a piece of equipment there was a chance the max durability would decrease slightly based on skill of the repairer (ranged from 90%-99%) for each point of dura repaired to fail and lower the max dura by that much. This creates a situation where the gear needs to be replaced eventually when max dura gets to low. You could expand on this to a degree by allowing you to merge dmg items with crafted gear of same teir to regain some max durability that was lost this would keep a demand for crafted armor/weapons and allow people to keep X gear by refrshing it durability when it low. Either way without a gear sink for crafted items player economy for crafters dont work If I remember right, you left the game very early. I want to say around the time of the thunderstruck tree change. At that point in time, the games economy wasn't even properly up and running. One thing I will always give XL props on is that they knew how to easy a games economy along. Realistically, the games economy wasn't fully functional (at the top level, at least) until about a year in to a new server release. At that point, it wasn't uncommon to see someone blow through 20+ of an item at celestial quality in a sitting, trying to get to divine or epic. When players are buying then destroying 20+ of an item in a day, the player driven economy thrives under it. This is a part of the reason why I have always said gear in Ashes needs to be somewhat worthwhile - if gear isn't worthwhile - if spending that time and money for a small shot at a 2% upgrade to one piece of gear isn't worth it - then the economy will fall. i played long enough to see multiple people quit the game due to there +7/8/9 weapon breaking on them on an upgrade and never come back
Veeshan wrote: » to much financial loss to RNG i guess to much for people :P
Noaani wrote: » Fourth, every player I knew personally do this did it as their way of signing off from the game. Take all your gear, regrade it until it blows up and log out.
Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » Has there ever been a statement from Interpid about how hard gear is to obtain? Eve and Albion both make gear relatively easy to get. The super high end stuff is expensive, but most people are only using truely max level gear for imporant fights.
Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » He basically said there will be a loot table that is set according to the size that is expected to do it. That could mean a ton of things. If there is to be a player driven economy, a gear sink is 100% needed.
Noaani wrote: » Veeshan wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Veeshan wrote: » Noaani wrote: » The basics of gear churn that Ashes is set to have is an existing, working model for games with similar economies - Archeage being the most obvious. The main driver for gear in this economy is the desire for some players to want that additional 1 or 2%, getting that gets exponentially harder and sees the player go through more and more gear. Archage didnt realy work though atleast not when i played it on release, you only need 1 piece of gear and never needed replaced once u git high level unless u risk breaking it to get high + on it which was rare for people to do so crafter turning out weapons at a much much higher rate than they were needed. Archage was slightly better than say WoW i guess since there a small need for replacing weapon when one break breaks but it was to rare to make a crafting economy I do think AoC will be slightly better here since it atleast uses resources to repair so that will help processors/harvesters but it skips weapon/armor crafters though so they hit a wall where there making thing that cant be sold due to everyone at the point of not needing them anymore cause there BIS or what not. Albion probaly did it best for player economy but gear was each come easy go which wont be the case for AoC it seems. So i feel mabinogi would be the best system for AoC which worked this way Each time your repaired a piece of equipment there was a chance the max durability would decrease slightly based on skill of the repairer (ranged from 90%-99%) for each point of dura repaired to fail and lower the max dura by that much. This creates a situation where the gear needs to be replaced eventually when max dura gets to low. You could expand on this to a degree by allowing you to merge dmg items with crafted gear of same teir to regain some max durability that was lost this would keep a demand for crafted armor/weapons and allow people to keep X gear by refrshing it durability when it low. Either way without a gear sink for crafted items player economy for crafters dont work If I remember right, you left the game very early. I want to say around the time of the thunderstruck tree change. At that point in time, the games economy wasn't even properly up and running. One thing I will always give XL props on is that they knew how to easy a games economy along. Realistically, the games economy wasn't fully functional (at the top level, at least) until about a year in to a new server release. At that point, it wasn't uncommon to see someone blow through 20+ of an item at celestial quality in a sitting, trying to get to divine or epic. When players are buying then destroying 20+ of an item in a day, the player driven economy thrives under it. This is a part of the reason why I have always said gear in Ashes needs to be somewhat worthwhile - if gear isn't worthwhile - if spending that time and money for a small shot at a 2% upgrade to one piece of gear isn't worth it - then the economy will fall. i played long enough to see multiple people quit the game due to there +7/8/9 weapon breaking on them on an upgrade and never come back Four points. First, literally never once heard regrade levels referred to as numbers for Archeage. Not one time in 10 years of being associated with the game. Second, you didn't see people quit from regarding weapons to that point, because the 7th grade had no break chance. While I'm happy to put this down to it being years ago, details are important. Third, obviously people left over this. Some people are stupid and regrade what they can't afford to lose. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the system, it means there is something wrong with that player. Fourth, every player I knew personally do this did it as their way of signing off from the game. Take all your gear, regrade it until it blows up and log out. I never once saw a single player that knew what they were doing leave teh game over failed regrading. I saw a few people that didn't know what they were doing leave, but see point three for that.
Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » But without numbers that doesnt do anything for crafting. Does a boss drop 1 special crafting material? Does it only take one for super special gear? or does the boss only drop 1 every 50 times and it takes 100 items to make the super special item?
Veeshan wrote: » that just delays the issue and tbh alot of people dont like system where they need say fire resist gear for X area, cold resist gear for X raid and so on just makes organising gear sets annoying,
Veeshan wrote: » Eventually if there no gear decay crafters will become more and more obsolete as more and more players hit the BiS or people outlevel crafter skill levels.
Veeshan wrote: » Take new world and tool crafting the moment everyone hit lvl 30 tools lvl 30 and below tools were pointless to craft since u could never sell any, when everyone eventualy hit max level there was nolonger any market for crafting tools and they never got sold. Only a handful of toolcrafters made money here since they were ahead of the skill curve so there items were needed as people hit them but people behind the curve never sold anything cause there items were already obsolete by the time they hit that new tier of tool.
Veeshan wrote: » if you want a player run economy there needs to be gear decay in some way or form that keeps a demand for crafters to keep crafting goods. Either via gear breaking and needing to be replaced in some way or form or gear needs to be repaired via crafted armor/weapons of same tier so there a constant demand for crafted items.
NiKr wrote: » Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » But without numbers that doesnt do anything for crafting. Does a boss drop 1 special crafting material? Does it only take one for super special gear? or does the boss only drop 1 every 50 times and it takes 100 items to make the super special item? Even if the boss drops a few items - that's still only one kill of that boss, which will most likely be once a day, if not less often. And that's only for the regular basic bosses, which would have regular basic drops. Anything better would most likely have longer respawns. And all of that finite loot will have to be shared across upwards of 50k accounts, which might have upwards of 10 chars on them, not counting any potential requirements to break down that loot for crafting requirements. In other words, Ashes will not be eve or albion, in terms of its gear acquisition, which is why the gear sink is not as big as in those games.
