Fourth, every player I knew personally do this did it as their way of signing off from the game. Take all your gear, regrade it until it blows up and log out.
Yep, was the same in L2. People were about to leave the server and would just go OE all their shit till it burned. Quite a few times they'd OE it super high and then give it to someone from their guild who were still playing
But absolute majority of OEing was done with at least one backup, even if it was at a way lower enchant stage.
Is dropping your gear when you die really that terrible? If you attack a caravan, or even defend a caravan and you die, should you not have risk? Maybe you steal the caravan and make tons of money. Maybe you die and lose a gear set. Regear and move on. Its more of a mind set.
In Eve if you lose a ship, its frustrating, but its a consumable. In Albion, you dont get attached to gear sets since eventually you will lose it. There are ways in both games to be safe and never lose them, but then you never have access to the hardest content, or best crafting resources. Its risk vs reward and a chance in mind set.
Has there ever been a statement from Interpid about how hard gear is to obtain? Eve and Albion both make gear relatively easy to get. The super high end stuff is expensive, but most people are only using truely max level gear for imporant fights.
Has there ever been a statement from Interpid about how hard gear is to obtain? Eve and Albion both make gear relatively easy to get. The super high end stuff is expensive, but most people are only using truely max level gear for imporant fights.
The latest q&a kinda answered this. It's difficult. Otherwise Steven's words about "zerg cannot benefit from a boss kill cause the loot is limited" would not be true.
We are saying the same thing @NiKr. More people doesnt equal more rewards. There is a set drop and it is balanced around the size of the group the developers think are needed to do the content.
But without numbers that doesnt do anything for crafting. Does a boss drop 1 special crafting material? Does it only take one for super special gear? or does the boss only drop 1 every 50 times and it takes 100 items to make the super special item?
The basics of gear churn that Ashes is set to have is an existing, working model for games with similar economies - Archeage being the most obvious.
The main driver for gear in this economy is the desire for some players to want that additional 1 or 2%, getting that gets exponentially harder and sees the player go through more and more gear.
Archage didnt realy work though atleast not when i played it on release, you only need 1 piece of gear and never needed replaced once u git high level unless u risk breaking it to get high + on it which was rare for people to do so crafter turning out weapons at a much much higher rate than they were needed.
Archage was slightly better than say WoW i guess since there a small need for replacing weapon when one break breaks but it was to rare to make a crafting economy
I do think AoC will be slightly better here since it atleast uses resources to repair so that will help processors/harvesters but it skips weapon/armor crafters though so they hit a wall where there making thing that cant be sold due to everyone at the point of not needing them anymore cause there BIS or what not.
Albion probaly did it best for player economy but gear was each come easy go which wont be the case for AoC it seems. So i feel mabinogi would be the best system for AoC which worked this way
Each time your repaired a piece of equipment there was a chance the max durability would decrease slightly based on skill of the repairer (ranged from 90%-99%) for each point of dura repaired to fail and lower the max dura by that much. This creates a situation where the gear needs to be replaced eventually when max dura gets to low.
You could expand on this to a degree by allowing you to merge dmg items with crafted gear of same teir to regain some max durability that was lost this would keep a demand for crafted armor/weapons and allow people to keep X gear by refrshing it durability when it low.
Either way without a gear sink for crafted items player economy for crafters dont work
If I remember right, you left the game very early. I want to say around the time of the thunderstruck tree change.
At that point in time, the games economy wasn't even properly up and running. One thing I will always give XL props on is that they knew how to easy a games economy along.
Realistically, the games economy wasn't fully functional (at the top level, at least) until about a year in to a new server release.
At that point, it wasn't uncommon to see someone blow through 20+ of an item at celestial quality in a sitting, trying to get to divine or epic.
When players are buying then destroying 20+ of an item in a day, the player driven economy thrives under it.
This is a part of the reason why I have always said gear in Ashes needs to be somewhat worthwhile - if gear isn't worthwhile - if spending that time and money for a small shot at a 2% upgrade to one piece of gear isn't worth it - then the economy will fall.
i played long enough to see multiple people quit the game due to there +7/8/9 weapon breaking on them on an upgrade and never come back
Four points.
First, literally never once heard regrade levels referred to as numbers for Archeage. Not one time in 10 years of being associated with the game.
Second, you didn't see people quit from regarding weapons to that point, because the 7th grade had no break chance. While I'm happy to put this down to it being years ago, details are important.
Third, obviously people left over this. Some people are stupid and regrade what they can't afford to lose. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the system, it means there is something wrong with that player.
Fourth, every player I knew personally do this did it as their way of signing off from the game. Take all your gear, regrade it until it blows up and log out.
I never once saw a single player that knew what they were doing leave teh game over failed regrading. I saw a few people that didn't know what they were doing leave, but see point three for that.
Well i know 7 people who quit cause regrade broke the weapon, 2 in guild 3 more in the pirate nation (when i was a pirate) and 2 more from friendly guild on same server that i was aware of.
But without numbers that doesnt do anything for crafting. Does a boss drop 1 special crafting material? Does it only take one for super special gear? or does the boss only drop 1 every 50 times and it takes 100 items to make the super special item?
Even if the boss drops a few items - that's still only one kill of that boss, which will most likely be once a day, if not less often. And that's only for the regular basic bosses, which would have regular basic drops. Anything better would most likely have longer respawns.
And all of that finite loot will have to be shared across upwards of 50k accounts, which might have upwards of 10 chars on them, not counting any potential requirements to break down that loot for crafting requirements.
In other words, Ashes will not be eve or albion, in terms of its gear acquisition, which is why the gear sink is not as big as in those games.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
that just delays the issue and tbh alot of people dont like system where they need say fire resist gear for X area, cold resist gear for X raid and so on just makes organising gear sets annoying,
I don't know if it matter that some people don't like it.
That's the way Ashes gear is designed to work.
Eventually if there no gear decay crafters will become more and more obsolete as more and more players hit the BiS or people outlevel crafter skill levels.
Take new world and tool crafting the moment everyone hit lvl 30 tools lvl 30 and below tools were pointless to craft since u could never sell any, when everyone eventualy hit max level there was nolonger any market for crafting tools and they never got sold. Only a handful of toolcrafters made money here since they were ahead of the skill curve so there items were needed as people hit them but people behind the curve never sold anything cause there items were already obsolete by the time they hit that new tier of tool.
NW is a Survival Game; not an MMORPG. Crafting is not the same.
I can easily make all my own stuff in NW.
if you want a player run economy there needs to be gear decay in some way or form that keeps a demand for crafters to keep crafting goods. Either via gear breaking and needing to be replaced in some way or form or gear needs to be repaired via crafted armor/weapons of same tier so there a constant demand for crafted items.
You keep saying that with no meaningful support - especially not with regard to Ashes.
But without numbers that doesnt do anything for crafting. Does a boss drop 1 special crafting material? Does it only take one for super special gear? or does the boss only drop 1 every 50 times and it takes 100 items to make the super special item?
Even if the boss drops a few items - that's still only one kill of that boss, which will most likely be once a day, if not less often. And that's only for the regular basic bosses, which would have regular basic drops. Anything better would most likely have longer respawns.
And all of that finite loot will have to be shared across upwards of 50k accounts, which might have upwards of 10 chars on them, not counting any potential requirements to break down that loot for crafting requirements.
In other words, Ashes will not be eve or albion, in terms of its gear acquisition, which is why the gear sink is not as big as in those games.
The boss drops a cell phone but you gain no experience.
If crafters cant make money because low level items are not in demand, then higher end items will cost infintantly more because of the lack of crafters that can do it. If only one crafter can build the item, they can charge an infinate amount of money for it, same goes with processer. or even gatherer if it needs max skills to do it. If you dont have a way for the mid level items to be expended( ie a gear sink), higher level stuff will die off.
Is dropping your gear when you die really that terrible? If you attack a caravan, or even defend a caravan and you die, should you not have risk? Maybe you steal the caravan and make tons of money. Maybe you die and lose a gear set. Regear and move on. Its more of a mind set.
In Eve if you lose a ship, its frustrating, but its a consumable. In Albion, you dont get attached to gear sets since eventually you will lose it. There are ways in both games to be safe and never lose them, but then you never have access to the hardest content, or best crafting resources. Its risk vs reward and a chance in mind set.
Has there ever been a statement from Interpid about how hard gear is to obtain? Eve and Albion both make gear relatively easy to get. The super high end stuff is expensive, but most people are only using truely max level gear for imporant fights.
I'm totally with you on this @Zipp_Adoudel . The mind set to losing/replacing gear is a big hurdle for many players. Personally my focus for alpha 2 will be around the economy and crafting aspects. I have the same concerns about a lack of gear sink. I'm always on the lookout for games that actually support being a full time crafter. (Specifically crafting and not gather + crafting). So far Albion is the only game I've played with a sophisticated enough economy to make crafting not feel like an afterthought.
If crafters cant make money because low level items are not in demand, then higher end items will cost infintantly more because of the lack of crafters that can do it. If only one crafter can build the item, they can charge an infinate amount of money for it, same goes with processer. or even gatherer if it needs max skills to do it. If you dont have a way for the mid level items to be expended( ie a gear sink), higher level stuff will die off.
Specific and necessary crafting materials for higher tier items can only be obtained through the deconstruction of lower-tier items. This is designed to keep lower tier crafted gear relevant through progression and across expansions.[3][4][2]
Is dropping your gear when you die really that terrible? If you attack a caravan, or even defend a caravan and you die, should you not have risk? Maybe you steal the caravan and make tons of money. Maybe you die and lose a gear set. Regear and move on. Its more of a mind set.
In Eve if you lose a ship, its frustrating, but its a consumable. In Albion, you dont get attached to gear sets since eventually you will lose it. There are ways in both games to be safe and never lose them, but then you never have access to the hardest content, or best crafting resources. Its risk vs reward and a chance in mind set.
Has there ever been a statement from Interpid about how hard gear is to obtain? Eve and Albion both make gear relatively easy to get. The super high end stuff is expensive, but most people are only using truely max level gear for imporant fights.
its easy to get gear in albion. at some point losing it is the same as not losing anything. and yes, steven said gear will be very hard to craft and get in ashes, so losing it on every death doesn't work for this game.
no to losing gear during pvp events...only if you are corrupted
If crafters cant make money because low level items are not in demand, then higher end items will cost infintantly more because of the lack of crafters that can do it. If only one crafter can build the item, they can charge an infinate amount of money for it, same goes with processer. or even gatherer if it needs max skills to do it. If you dont have a way for the mid level items to be expended( ie a gear sink), higher level stuff will die off.
also wrong. crafters will sell for what people are willing to pay. you can say that maybe the first couple of weapons of a kind will be really expensive, but price will always drop, since people cant afford it. no point in selling a weapon for 1 million when the richest person in the server only has 100,000 and the average player is only willing to pay 30,000 for example.
you might eventually sell it for a million, after a long time when everybody is rich.
The basics of gear churn that Ashes is set to have is an existing, working model for games with similar economies - Archeage being the most obvious.
The main driver for gear in this economy is the desire for some players to want that additional 1 or 2%, getting that gets exponentially harder and sees the player go through more and more gear.
Archage didnt realy work though atleast not when i played it on release, you only need 1 piece of gear and never needed replaced once u git high level unless u risk breaking it to get high + on it which was rare for people to do so crafter turning out weapons at a much much higher rate than they were needed.
Archage was slightly better than say WoW i guess since there a small need for replacing weapon when one break breaks but it was to rare to make a crafting economy
I do think AoC will be slightly better here since it atleast uses resources to repair so that will help processors/harvesters but it skips weapon/armor crafters though so they hit a wall where there making thing that cant be sold due to everyone at the point of not needing them anymore cause there BIS or what not.
Albion probaly did it best for player economy but gear was each come easy go which wont be the case for AoC it seems. So i feel mabinogi would be the best system for AoC which worked this way
Each time your repaired a piece of equipment there was a chance the max durability would decrease slightly based on skill of the repairer (ranged from 90%-99%) for each point of dura repaired to fail and lower the max dura by that much. This creates a situation where the gear needs to be replaced eventually when max dura gets to low.
You could expand on this to a degree by allowing you to merge dmg items with crafted gear of same teir to regain some max durability that was lost this would keep a demand for crafted armor/weapons and allow people to keep X gear by refrshing it durability when it low.
Either way without a gear sink for crafted items player economy for crafters dont work
If I remember right, you left the game very early. I want to say around the time of the thunderstruck tree change.
At that point in time, the games economy wasn't even properly up and running. One thing I will always give XL props on is that they knew how to easy a games economy along.
Realistically, the games economy wasn't fully functional (at the top level, at least) until about a year in to a new server release.
At that point, it wasn't uncommon to see someone blow through 20+ of an item at celestial quality in a sitting, trying to get to divine or epic.
When players are buying then destroying 20+ of an item in a day, the player driven economy thrives under it.
This is a part of the reason why I have always said gear in Ashes needs to be somewhat worthwhile - if gear isn't worthwhile - if spending that time and money for a small shot at a 2% upgrade to one piece of gear isn't worth it - then the economy will fall.
i played long enough to see multiple people quit the game due to there +7/8/9 weapon breaking on them on an upgrade and never come back
Four points.
First, literally never once heard regrade levels referred to as numbers for Archeage. Not one time in 10 years of being associated with the game.
Second, you didn't see people quit from regarding weapons to that point, because the 7th grade had no break chance. While I'm happy to put this down to it being years ago, details are important.
Third, obviously people left over this. Some people are stupid and regrade what they can't afford to lose. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the system, it means there is something wrong with that player.
Fourth, every player I knew personally do this did it as their way of signing off from the game. Take all your gear, regrade it until it blows up and log out.
I never once saw a single player that knew what they were doing leave teh game over failed regrading. I saw a few people that didn't know what they were doing leave, but see point three for that.
Well i know 7 people who quit cause regrade broke the weapon, 2 in guild 3 more in the pirate nation (when i was a pirate) and 2 more from friendly guild on same server that i was aware of.
Again, not saying it didn't happen - just saying that is a fault in the user, not the system.
You should never regrade an item you are using, you make another (several dozen) of the same and attempt to regrade them.
That is how I got myself to top 10 best geared on my server without using the shop at all - on 3 of the 4 servers I played on (couldn't do it on the KR server).
As NiKr suggested, someone doing this in a game like Archeage is like someone putting all their in game wealth in to one ship in EVE, and then having it destroyed.
Take new world and tool crafting the moment everyone hit lvl 30 tools lvl 30 and below tools were pointless to craft since u could never sell any, when everyone eventualy hit max level there was nolonger any market for crafting tools and they never got sold. Only a handful of toolcrafters made money here since they were ahead of the skill curve so there items were needed as people hit them but people behind the curve never sold anything cause there items were already obsolete by the time they hit that new tier of tool.
NW is a Survival Game; not an MMORPG. Crafting is not the same.
I can easily make all my own stuff in NW.
new world is not even close to a survival game it 100% an MMO (it might have started as a mor survival based game during alpha but that got walked back and gutted pretty much removed all survival elements when they removed the full loot, now if u dont like new world WoW also had the same issue craft BIS crafted items sell BIS crafted items, everyone gets BIS crafted items or better none that craft is useless
The only crafts that remain relevant in WoW (Atleast up to Lich king i stopped playing then so could of changed) are consumables crafting and enchanting, pretty much alchemy, enchanting and cooking to a degree were the only profitable crafts after the initial launch of the game, they did end up adding consumable to other crafting profession to make them somewhat relevant (armor patches and what not) but realy it no where near
Is dropping your gear when you die really that terrible? If you attack a caravan, or even defend a caravan and you die, should you not have risk? Maybe you steal the caravan and make tons of money. Maybe you die and lose a gear set. Regear and move on. Its more of a mind set.
In Eve if you lose a ship, its frustrating, but its a consumable. In Albion, you dont get attached to gear sets since eventually you will lose it. There are ways in both games to be safe and never lose them, but then you never have access to the hardest content, or best crafting resources. Its risk vs reward and a chance in mind set.
Has there ever been a statement from Interpid about how hard gear is to obtain? Eve and Albion both make gear relatively easy to get. The super high end stuff is expensive, but most people are only using truely max level gear for imporant fights.
I'm totally with you on this @Zipp_Adoudel . The mind set to losing/replacing gear is a big hurdle for many players. Personally my focus for alpha 2 will be around the economy and crafting aspects. I have the same concerns about a lack of gear sink. I'm always on the lookout for games that actually support being a full time crafter. (Specifically crafting and not gather + crafting). So far Albion is the only game I've played with a sophisticated enough economy to make crafting not feel like an afterthought.
yep people get too attached to gear which end up causing issues when it comes to player ran economies, thats why main suggestion to help here is to use crafted gear to be used to repair items player has this keep the demand for crafted armors/weapon and crafters relevant once people get geared up
He basically said there will be a loot table that is set according to the size that is expected to do it. That could mean a ton of things.
If there is to be a player driven economy, a gear sink is 100% needed.
Go rewatch the q&a. He says "the reward is finite, so if you take more people to it - you'll get less of a reward than if you had taken fewer people".
This is literally how L2 worked and why zergs there had to work for a long time to gear up their members.
It’s true, that this is why in L2 people fought for world bosses to get loot. In some mmorps, people stand together and beat the boss and they don’t care if the loot goes to them or others. The L2 community was special and also Archeage players.
If crafters cant make money because low level items are not in demand, then higher end items will cost infintantly more because of the lack of crafters that can do it. If only one crafter can build the item, they can charge an infinate amount of money for it, same goes with processer. or even gatherer if it needs max skills to do it. If you dont have a way for the mid level items to be expended( ie a gear sink), higher level stuff will die off.
also wrong. crafters will sell for what people are willing to pay. you can say that maybe the first couple of weapons of a kind will be really expensive, but price will always drop, since people cant afford it. no point in selling a weapon for 1 million when the richest person in the server only has 100,000 and the average player is only willing to pay 30,000 for example.
you might eventually sell it for a million, after a long time when everybody is rich.
If this is the case, only the biggest and best groups will have the high end gear because they can have a monopoly on it. They will recruit the crafters and pay them not to make stuff for others. That sounds like a great game to be in as well.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
new world is not even close to a survival game it 100% an MMO (it might have started as a mor survival based game during alpha but that got walked back and gutted pretty much removed all survival elements when they removed the full loot, now if u dont like new world WoW also had the same issue craft BIS crafted items sell BIS crafted items, everyone gets BIS crafted items or better none that craft is useless
Um. That's like saying American Football is not Football because you can use you're hands to move the ball down the field, instead it just 100% a Ball game.
New World is an MMO Survival game with some RPG elements tacked on at the end.
I don't know why you are obsessing over BiS gear.
But, again... I can very easily make my own Gear in NW. Because the Crafting is designed as Survival Game Crafting. No need to rely on other players for Crafting in NW.
Has there ever been a statement from Interpid about how hard gear is to obtain? Eve and Albion both make gear relatively easy to get. The super high end stuff is expensive, but most people are only using truely max level gear for important fights.
I don't know why Intrepid would comment on that, but...
I am not aware of any intention for Intrepid to make obtaining Gear hard.
yep people get too attached to gear which end up causing issues when it comes to player ran economies, thats why main suggestion to help here is to use crafted gear to be used to repair items player has this keep the demand for crafted armors/weapon and crafters relevant once people get geared up
I don't know what you mean by too attached.
The easiest way to recognize other player characters in an MMORPG is via the gear they wear.
It is a key aspect of defining identity. So, yes, players are gonna want to hang on tothe BiS Gear they earned. Especially when it takes weeks or months to get a full set for yourself - and more months helping your Guild buddies get their full sets.
But, again, in Ashes - that set of BiS gear will not actually be Best In Slot for all encounters - and players will be pressured by specific scenarios to swap to a different set in order to defeat new challenges - even at Max Level.
If crafters cant make money because low level items are not in demand, then higher end items will cost infintantly more because of the lack of crafters that can do it. If only one crafter can build the item, they can charge an infinate amount of money for it, same goes with processer. or even gatherer if it needs max skills to do it. If you dont have a way for the mid level items to be expended( ie a gear sink), higher level stuff will die off.
also wrong. crafters will sell for what people are willing to pay. you can say that maybe the first couple of weapons of a kind will be really expensive, but price will always drop, since people cant afford it. no point in selling a weapon for 1 million when the richest person in the server only has 100,000 and the average player is only willing to pay 30,000 for example.
you might eventually sell it for a million, after a long time when everybody is rich.
If this is the case, only the biggest and best groups will have the high end gear because they can have a monopoly on it. They will recruit the crafters and pay them not to make stuff for others. That sounds like a great game to be in as well.
doesn't work like that. it depends how intrepid decides to make gear acquisition. there will be scarcity for sure, but even if there wasn't, you can still make the game so that it takes a long time to gear up (because you need too many mats, they ar heard to get, low drop % etc etc). and even with scarcity, you can farm something dn sell it hen buy another mat you cant get. no player will be able to get everything alone anyways so you need to trade. its mandatory
also, one thing is what you feel and another thing is reality. you don't need constant equipped gear destruction to keep the economy going. if you don't want to accept that, then that's on you ;3
Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven.
What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear.
My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard.
At the end of the day, people don't want to lose any of their stuff. Ever. It's not a good mentality, but what can you do?
It is what is it is. If the game releases with no gear destruction, which it likely will, then it's not something they will be able to put in later.
I agree with you that it's a problem, what you describe is exactly what will happen. Mechanics like enchanting and item sacrifice (like the forges in GW2) will help stretch things out, but the issue is still there. The way it is set up now, likely just kicks the can down the road.
Low level gear with eventually flood the market. Hard to say what happens with high level gear, depends on how systems like enchanting etc work. I think what will determine things at high level is power creep and the pace of level increases.
Items need to leave an economy to make room for new items. But gamers have a hard time with that.
Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven.
What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear.
My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard.
Items need to leave an economy to make room for new items. But gamers have a hard time with that.
not necessarily. coke didnt have to leave the market for pepsi to come in and sell.
sure mmorpg are a bit different, but again, you dont need (main) gear destruction. new items can be introduced before everybody gets 100% of the current items. that keeps the economy going forever without having to re farm your main gear every 2 days instead of doing something else when you are in game.
Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven.
What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear.
My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard.
Items need to leave an economy to make room for new items. But gamers have a hard time with that.
not necessarily. coke didnt have to leave the market for pepsi to come in and sell.
sure mmorpg are a bit different, but again, you dont need (main) gear destruction. new items can be introduced before everybody gets 100% of the current items. that keeps the economy going forever without having to re farm your main gear every 2 days instead of doing something else when you are in game.
I agree with all the other points made in favour of Ashes' economy; this one I think is the weakest. You're removing the incentive for new players to engage in the content older players did to craft their gear, if you just let them pass it on as new expensive stuff gets released. The low-levelled or cheaply equipped players are the backbone of the economy. If they don't have to work to loot and maintain their gear, the only one spending resources are the rich players who can spend them effortlessly, and no one has to earn anything.
Keeping repair costs high, and requiring high-effort rare resources and high crafting skill for repairs of high-tier equipment will be essential, and cannot be replaced by power creep.
No one but yourself can validate you for all the posts you *didn't* write.
Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven.
What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear.
My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard.
Items need to leave an economy to make room for new items. But gamers have a hard time with that.
not necessarily. coke didnt have to leave the market for pepsi to come in and sell.
sure mmorpg are a bit different, but again, you dont need (main) gear destruction. new items can be introduced before everybody gets 100% of the current items. that keeps the economy going forever without having to re farm your main gear every 2 days instead of doing something else when you are in game.
Not a great example. Soda is consumable, therefore it exits the economy and requires more to be produced.
Can any of you provide a working example of a thriving mmo economy where items never leave? Eve and SWG are examples where items exited and the economies were healthy because of it.
The low-levelled or cheaply equipped players are the backbone of the economy.
In a game with an economy like what Ashes is looking to have, the backbone of the economy will be people reasonably well geared but wanting to be better geared.
This may be different to some other games, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work.
Can any of you provide a working example of a thriving mmo economy where items never leave? Eve and SWG are examples where items exited and the economies were healthy because of it.
Archeage.
Items only leave if destroyed via regrading (same as Ashes - almost as if they literally copied it).
The games economy is second only to EVE as far as MMO's go.
That is the thing to keep in mind here, Intrepid aren't doing anything new with the game economy in relation to items.
Just because some people may not have experienced it, doesn't mean it is new. The system works just fine - the concerns are unfounded.
Can any of you provide a working example of a thriving mmo economy where items never leave? Eve and SWG are examples where items exited and the economies were healthy because of it.
Archeage.
Items only leave if destroyed via regrading (same as Ashes - almost as if they literally copied it).
The games economy is second only to EVE as far as MMO's go.
I'm assuming players are heavily incentivized to regrade? Honestly I'm not really going to be able argue for or against Archeage, didn't play it long enough. All I can say is every MMO ( and I mean all of them) that didn't have some form of item sink had garbage economies.
I'd say if Intrepid won't do decay then they will have to:
1 Massively incentivise enchanting
2 Make enchanting beneficial to everyone. Including and especially low level players.
3 Make repairs very cost prohibitive.
4 Make sure that multiple sets of gear are needed to do different types of content.
5 Be extremely active in introducing new content that high level characters need new gear for.
Even all that won't prevent economic decay forever. All that so that no one ever has to lose their pixels..
I'm assuming players are heavily incentivized to regrade?
Regrade or die.
You weren't successful at all in Archeage unless you were using gear that had been decently regraded. You didn't need to do it yourself, but if you bought it, you paid a lot for it.
For all the games faults, Archeage had easily the best economy of any MMO other than EVE.
I'd say if Intrepid won't do decay then they will have to:
1 Massively incentivise enchanting
2 Make enchanting beneficial to everyone. Including and especially low level players.
3 Make repairs very cost prohibitive.
4 Make sure that multiple sets of gear are needed to do different types of content.
5 Be extremely active in introducing new content that high level characters need new gear for.
The first point here is the only one of them that is needed - though it doesn't need to be a "massive" incentive.
The second point is very minor, considering how little time is spent playing MMO's at anything other than max level.
The third point would just dissuade people from running content or taking risk. This is a death penalty rather than an economic measure.
The fourth point - while something I like - just takes away from the better gear you have. Players aren't going to invest more time in their gear than they feel they can allocate to it, if players can invest all of their time in to one set of gear and still not hit the cap, there is no need to require them to invest in multiple sets of gear. All that would do is lower the investment they put in to their main set of gear. While requiring players to have multiple gear sets is not a bad thing (and again, something I like), the over all investment - and thus economic activity - would remain the same.
The fifth point is again something I would like to see, but isn't necessary. Archeage was incerdibly slow at adding new content. All that is actually necessary is for players to not hit the gear ceiling - and literally no one in Archeage got even close.
In fact, I don't think any actual best in slot items actually existed on any server I played. While there were a few items that were regraded to the regrade cap (I saw perhaps 12 items total in my years playing Archeage), it was never done with the best base items.
Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven.
What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear.
My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard.
Items need to leave an economy to make room for new items. But gamers have a hard time with that.
not necessarily. coke didnt have to leave the market for pepsi to come in and sell.
sure mmorpg are a bit different, but again, you dont need (main) gear destruction. new items can be introduced before everybody gets 100% of the current items. that keeps the economy going forever without having to re farm your main gear every 2 days instead of doing something else when you are in game.
I agree with all the other points made in favour of Ashes' economy; this one I think is the weakest. You're removing the incentive for new players to engage in the content older players did to craft their gear, if you just let them pass it on as new expensive stuff gets released. The low-levelled or cheaply equipped players are the backbone of the economy. If they don't have to work to loot and maintain their gear, the only one spending resources are the rich players who can spend them effortlessly, and no one has to earn anything.
Keeping repair costs high, and requiring high-effort rare resources and high crafting skill for repairs of high-tier equipment will be essential, and cannot be replaced by power creep.
how am i removing the incentives for new players? they still need to gear up. doesnt matter how you acquire the gear.
its also a good thing that a rich player could buy gear and help someone new. this would help that person be on par with veteran players faster, which is a big challenge games with collectibles face.
it doesnt matter if bob or joe buy my sword, what matters to me (and the economy) is that someone buys it.
Can any of you provide a working example of a thriving mmo economy where items never leave? Eve and SWG are examples where items exited and the economies were healthy because of it.
Archeage.
Items only leave if destroyed via regrading (same as Ashes - almost as if they literally copied it).
The games economy is second only to EVE as far as MMO's go.
I'm assuming players are heavily incentivized to regrade? Honestly I'm not really going to be able argue for or against Archeage, didn't play it long enough. All I can say is every MMO ( and I mean all of them) that didn't have some form of item sink had garbage economies.
I'd say if Intrepid won't do decay then they will have to:
1 Massively incentivise enchanting
2 Make enchanting beneficial to everyone. Including and especially low level players.
3 Make repairs very cost prohibitive.
4 Make sure that multiple sets of gear are needed to do different types of content.
5 Be extremely active in introducing new content that high level characters need new gear for.
Even all that won't prevent economic decay forever. All that so that no one ever has to lose their pixels..
you can still have sinks without destroying the main equipped gear to the point the player has to repeat the same process to re acquire it. overenchanting is ok because this is an action that you can decide wether to do it or not. there are also scrolls that prevent the destruction of the gear, but are harder to get.
now you are changing the argument.
anyway, the coke example was just to illustrate that your competition doesnt need to leave the market for you to compete.
Comments
Yep, was the same in L2. People were about to leave the server and would just go OE all their shit till it burned. Quite a few times they'd OE it super high and then give it to someone from their guild who were still playing
But absolute majority of OEing was done with at least one backup, even if it was at a way lower enchant stage.
In Eve if you lose a ship, its frustrating, but its a consumable. In Albion, you dont get attached to gear sets since eventually you will lose it. There are ways in both games to be safe and never lose them, but then you never have access to the hardest content, or best crafting resources. Its risk vs reward and a chance in mind set.
Has there ever been a statement from Interpid about how hard gear is to obtain? Eve and Albion both make gear relatively easy to get. The super high end stuff is expensive, but most people are only using truely max level gear for imporant fights.
If there is to be a player driven economy, a gear sink is 100% needed.
This is literally how L2 worked and why zergs there had to work for a long time to gear up their members.
But without numbers that doesnt do anything for crafting. Does a boss drop 1 special crafting material? Does it only take one for super special gear? or does the boss only drop 1 every 50 times and it takes 100 items to make the super special item?
Well i know 7 people who quit cause regrade broke the weapon, 2 in guild 3 more in the pirate nation (when i was a pirate) and 2 more from friendly guild on same server that i was aware of.
And all of that finite loot will have to be shared across upwards of 50k accounts, which might have upwards of 10 chars on them, not counting any potential requirements to break down that loot for crafting requirements.
In other words, Ashes will not be eve or albion, in terms of its gear acquisition, which is why the gear sink is not as big as in those games.
That's the way Ashes gear is designed to work.
HIghly unlikely to be a thing in Ashes.
NW is a Survival Game; not an MMORPG. Crafting is not the same.
I can easily make all my own stuff in NW.
You keep saying that with no meaningful support - especially not with regard to Ashes.
The boss drops a cell phone but you gain no experience.
I'm totally with you on this @Zipp_Adoudel . The mind set to losing/replacing gear is a big hurdle for many players. Personally my focus for alpha 2 will be around the economy and crafting aspects. I have the same concerns about a lack of gear sink. I'm always on the lookout for games that actually support being a full time crafter. (Specifically crafting and not gather + crafting). So far Albion is the only game I've played with a sophisticated enough economy to make crafting not feel like an afterthought.
Specific and necessary crafting materials for higher tier items can only be obtained through the deconstruction of lower-tier items. This is designed to keep lower tier crafted gear relevant through progression and across expansions.[3][4][2]
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Item_deconstruction
And repairing items can be tuned to require the same amount of resources as crafting them, or even more.
its easy to get gear in albion. at some point losing it is the same as not losing anything. and yes, steven said gear will be very hard to craft and get in ashes, so losing it on every death doesn't work for this game.
no to losing gear during pvp events...only if you are corrupted
not really. already explained it.
also wrong. crafters will sell for what people are willing to pay. you can say that maybe the first couple of weapons of a kind will be really expensive, but price will always drop, since people cant afford it. no point in selling a weapon for 1 million when the richest person in the server only has 100,000 and the average player is only willing to pay 30,000 for example.
you might eventually sell it for a million, after a long time when everybody is rich.
Again, not saying it didn't happen - just saying that is a fault in the user, not the system.
You should never regrade an item you are using, you make another (several dozen) of the same and attempt to regrade them.
That is how I got myself to top 10 best geared on my server without using the shop at all - on 3 of the 4 servers I played on (couldn't do it on the KR server).
As NiKr suggested, someone doing this in a game like Archeage is like someone putting all their in game wealth in to one ship in EVE, and then having it destroyed.
That is a user issue.
It’s true, that this is why in L2 people fought for world bosses to get loot. In some mmorps, people stand together and beat the boss and they don’t care if the loot goes to them or others. The L2 community was special and also Archeage players.
If this is the case, only the biggest and best groups will have the high end gear because they can have a monopoly on it. They will recruit the crafters and pay them not to make stuff for others. That sounds like a great game to be in as well.
New World is an MMO Survival game with some RPG elements tacked on at the end.
I don't know why you are obsessing over BiS gear.
But, again... I can very easily make my own Gear in NW. Because the Crafting is designed as Survival Game Crafting. No need to rely on other players for Crafting in NW.
I don't know why Intrepid would comment on that, but...
I am not aware of any intention for Intrepid to make obtaining Gear hard.
I don't know what you mean by too attached.
The easiest way to recognize other player characters in an MMORPG is via the gear they wear.
It is a key aspect of defining identity. So, yes, players are gonna want to hang on tothe BiS Gear they earned. Especially when it takes weeks or months to get a full set for yourself - and more months helping your Guild buddies get their full sets.
But, again, in Ashes - that set of BiS gear will not actually be Best In Slot for all encounters - and players will be pressured by specific scenarios to swap to a different set in order to defeat new challenges - even at Max Level.
doesn't work like that. it depends how intrepid decides to make gear acquisition. there will be scarcity for sure, but even if there wasn't, you can still make the game so that it takes a long time to gear up (because you need too many mats, they ar heard to get, low drop % etc etc). and even with scarcity, you can farm something dn sell it hen buy another mat you cant get. no player will be able to get everything alone anyways so you need to trade. its mandatory
also, one thing is what you feel and another thing is reality. you don't need constant equipped gear destruction to keep the economy going. if you don't want to accept that, then that's on you ;3
At the end of the day, people don't want to lose any of their stuff. Ever. It's not a good mentality, but what can you do?
It is what is it is. If the game releases with no gear destruction, which it likely will, then it's not something they will be able to put in later.
I agree with you that it's a problem, what you describe is exactly what will happen. Mechanics like enchanting and item sacrifice (like the forges in GW2) will help stretch things out, but the issue is still there. The way it is set up now, likely just kicks the can down the road.
Low level gear with eventually flood the market. Hard to say what happens with high level gear, depends on how systems like enchanting etc work. I think what will determine things at high level is power creep and the pace of level increases.
Items need to leave an economy to make room for new items. But gamers have a hard time with that.
not necessarily. coke didnt have to leave the market for pepsi to come in and sell.
sure mmorpg are a bit different, but again, you dont need (main) gear destruction. new items can be introduced before everybody gets 100% of the current items. that keeps the economy going forever without having to re farm your main gear every 2 days instead of doing something else when you are in game.
I agree with all the other points made in favour of Ashes' economy; this one I think is the weakest. You're removing the incentive for new players to engage in the content older players did to craft their gear, if you just let them pass it on as new expensive stuff gets released. The low-levelled or cheaply equipped players are the backbone of the economy. If they don't have to work to loot and maintain their gear, the only one spending resources are the rich players who can spend them effortlessly, and no one has to earn anything.
Keeping repair costs high, and requiring high-effort rare resources and high crafting skill for repairs of high-tier equipment will be essential, and cannot be replaced by power creep.
Not a great example. Soda is consumable, therefore it exits the economy and requires more to be produced.
Can any of you provide a working example of a thriving mmo economy where items never leave? Eve and SWG are examples where items exited and the economies were healthy because of it.
This may be different to some other games, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work.
Archeage.
Items only leave if destroyed via regrading (same as Ashes - almost as if they literally copied it).
The games economy is second only to EVE as far as MMO's go.
That is the thing to keep in mind here, Intrepid aren't doing anything new with the game economy in relation to items.
Just because some people may not have experienced it, doesn't mean it is new. The system works just fine - the concerns are unfounded.
I'm assuming players are heavily incentivized to regrade? Honestly I'm not really going to be able argue for or against Archeage, didn't play it long enough. All I can say is every MMO ( and I mean all of them) that didn't have some form of item sink had garbage economies.
I'd say if Intrepid won't do decay then they will have to:
1 Massively incentivise enchanting
2 Make enchanting beneficial to everyone. Including and especially low level players.
3 Make repairs very cost prohibitive.
4 Make sure that multiple sets of gear are needed to do different types of content.
5 Be extremely active in introducing new content that high level characters need new gear for.
Even all that won't prevent economic decay forever. All that so that no one ever has to lose their pixels..
Regrade or die.
You weren't successful at all in Archeage unless you were using gear that had been decently regraded. You didn't need to do it yourself, but if you bought it, you paid a lot for it.
For all the games faults, Archeage had easily the best economy of any MMO other than EVE.
The first point here is the only one of them that is needed - though it doesn't need to be a "massive" incentive.
The second point is very minor, considering how little time is spent playing MMO's at anything other than max level.
The third point would just dissuade people from running content or taking risk. This is a death penalty rather than an economic measure.
The fourth point - while something I like - just takes away from the better gear you have. Players aren't going to invest more time in their gear than they feel they can allocate to it, if players can invest all of their time in to one set of gear and still not hit the cap, there is no need to require them to invest in multiple sets of gear. All that would do is lower the investment they put in to their main set of gear. While requiring players to have multiple gear sets is not a bad thing (and again, something I like), the over all investment - and thus economic activity - would remain the same.
The fifth point is again something I would like to see, but isn't necessary. Archeage was incerdibly slow at adding new content. All that is actually necessary is for players to not hit the gear ceiling - and literally no one in Archeage got even close.
In fact, I don't think any actual best in slot items actually existed on any server I played. While there were a few items that were regraded to the regrade cap (I saw perhaps 12 items total in my years playing Archeage), it was never done with the best base items.
how am i removing the incentives for new players? they still need to gear up. doesnt matter how you acquire the gear.
its also a good thing that a rich player could buy gear and help someone new. this would help that person be on par with veteran players faster, which is a big challenge games with collectibles face.
it doesnt matter if bob or joe buy my sword, what matters to me (and the economy) is that someone buys it.
you can still have sinks without destroying the main equipped gear to the point the player has to repeat the same process to re acquire it. overenchanting is ok because this is an action that you can decide wether to do it or not. there are also scrolls that prevent the destruction of the gear, but are harder to get.
now you are changing the argument.
anyway, the coke example was just to illustrate that your competition doesnt need to leave the market for you to compete.