Battlepass in MMOs

State your opinion, I'll start with mine

They're dumb they are meant for repetitive games like shooters, they give you something to do in a games that are arena pvp weather it be a MOBA or Shooter. MMOs are supposed to keep you busy. adding chores on top of that for things I should just be able to work for tends to leave a bad taste in mouth.

Also the monetization of it is kind of dumb as well. FFXIV and WoW have raked in large amounts of money just doing cosmetics on the shop, do that without the predatory fear of missing out.

One other argument for me was when I was playing NW I wanted to support the game, I bought up dyes and emotes and spent more money on that game then I have any other game as far as cosmetics, I supported it because it was simple and clean way for them to make extra money. I stopped giving them my money after they started doing the battlepass. It even made me not care about collecting all the emotes anymore. It wasn't even to protest, I just stopped caring.

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Hinotori

Battlepasses that do nothing but offer cosmetic rewards for what you're already doing make no sense. What's the point in that reward being in a battlepass when it could just be directly purchased? You're basically adding a daily log in requirement with a mandatory do X amount of things (dailies) for your carrot.

I thought most of us didn't want that.

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

How does a Battlepass negatively impact your gameplay?

I've already said. I want to experience the game in its full form. You said it yourself that cosmetics usually represent some part of the story or are even tied to lore. I want to experience that part of the story/lore.

Unless the BP is so damn automatic that I don't even need to look at it at all, but it'll still give me rewards - the BP will interrupt my immersion into the game by requiring me to progress it and claim the rewards (especially if it's a launcher/login screen BP).

I watched a video about NW's BP. You need to do a ton of extra steps to progress it and you definitely need to do a ton of shit to progress it optimally. I know that you dislike optimal gamers, cause they're not rpg gamers, but I am what I am, so I want to play the game in the way that's optimal to me.

Dygz wrote: »

You earn points for the stuff you're already doing. You can also earn some points from doing stuff you're weren't originally planning to do (especially if doing a handful takes less than a total of 10-15 minutes).

I always have something to do, but unless the BP covers absolutely every single activity in the game (and is fully automatic, as I said) - I will not magically progress the BP.

I'm a grind player, so I can go for weeks doing only one activity on repeat, because that kind of gameplay is optimal for what I'm trying to do. And then this grind most likely results in a different grind that requires me to repeat another activity for a very long time.

I'd bet money, if I had any, that my style of gameplay will not result in me magically progressing the BP to its max lvl. This then means that I'd need to stop my preferred gameplay just to get a piece of lore I want from the BP. And it would also mean that I'd need to study the BP and do all of its task in the optimal way, to get the max lvl asap before the season changes and the cosmetics go away.

All of this goes directly against my style of play, while also gatekeeping me from the content I want to experience.

I'm fine with direct purchase store because its cosmetic acquisition method is inherently separated from the game. I don't need to do anything in the game to get the reward, so in my mind the reward is disconnected from the game.

Dygz wrote: »

All of that is win/win.
I don't see how any of that has a negative impact on my gameplay - nor how it fucks me over.
That enhanced my gameplay.

It enhances YOUR gameplay, not mine. And seemingly not the gameplay of some other posters here.

And to touch upon the cosmetic costs from a post later in the thread. The BP is not cheaper for the player. It's simply what the devs want you to think. They could've easily just sold the cosmetics from the BP at the price that's equally shared across the premium BP items. So if there's 10 cosmetics in the premium BP and the BP costs $10 per season - the cosmetics cost $1 per item.

But then, to trick the players, the BP designers calculate what's the hardest way to make people progress the BP, so that they HAVE TO play the game longer, to boost its metrics. But this is EVEN WORSE in a sub game, because this elongation of the BP means that they're explicitly baiting you into paying for another month of the sub, even if you might've not had any other reason to play the game during that month.

So instead of $1 cosmetics, it's now "$1 + the monthly sub", and that's if you can even get your desired cosmetic that fast. Usually the best stuff is waaay later on into the BP, and quite often the later BP lvls require more XP per lvl. But even if Intrepid tried to seem "fairer" and had same XP for all lvls - that's still a ton of time to level up the BP before you get what you, theoretically, paid for.

And I know that you'll say "oh the BP just progresses with your gameplay and is also quick to lvl up these days", but this speed usually requires you to look at what needs to be cleared to get the lvls faster. And as I said at the beginning of this post - that negatively impacts my gameplay.

And if all of my problems get resolved by Intrepid putting an NPC into the game, removing any immersion-breaking UI, auto-progressing BP from literally any damn activity in the game, auto-rewarding you once the BP auto-progresses, and also only telling you about the premium BP outside of the game - why does all of that need to be a "BP" instead of just being a constant reward from anything you do and then an access to better rewards if you add some embers to that constant reward.

Call it Essence token, reward one token for literally every activity in the game and then balance the cosmetic costs based on that. Except this hugely sounds like an "everyone's a winner" design and afaik Steven dislikes those. Which is also why I don't believe that Ashes will have a BP, because a BP is the same thing at its core - a system for everyone to win, while doing literally nothing to deserve that win.

Ludullu

Hinotori wrote: »

I thought most of us didn't want that.

Most of us still don't. So far it's mostly only Dygz and Mag that are vehemently fighting to get chores in the game. Though they're fighting for that for different reasons

Otr

NiKr wrote: »

Hinotori wrote: »

I thought most of us didn't want that.

Most of us still don't. So far it's mostly only Dygz and Mag that are vehemently fighting to get chores in the game. Though they're fighting for that for different reasons

They both want to destroy the game.

Ludullu

Otr wrote: »

They both want to destroy the game.

Nah, they just want the game to be like they prefer, just as we all do.

Mag7spy

Otr wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Hinotori wrote: »

I thought most of us didn't want that.

Most of us still don't. So far it's mostly only Dygz and Mag that are vehemently fighting to get chores in the game. Though they're fighting for that for different reasons

They both want to destroy the game.

Destroy the game lol? Its called being realistic as there is a market place and they clearly need to make lot of mooney to both support the devs and be able to grow the IP.

You tried to make an argument any thing added to the game "dlc" should be free when we are talking about the store market. That is literarily wanting the game to die or a ton of people to be laid off, if they money they get isn't enough to support the studio. Legit that is peek money grows on trees.

Something added to the game for monetization that has 0 effect on you doesn't destroy a game. Games have been growing with the model just fine, IS should do what they feel is best for their situation. If they choose to do a BP there is nothing wrong with it so long as it isn't p2w.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Hinotori wrote: »

I thought most of us didn't want that.

Most of us still don't. So far it's mostly only Dygz and Mag that are vehemently fighting to get chores in the game. Though they're fighting for that for different reasons

They both want to destroy the game.

Destroy the game lol? Its called being realistic as there is a market place and they clearly need to make lot of mooney to both support the devs and be able to grow the IP.

I'm curious.

If you think this will make more money for Intrepid, where is that money coming from?

It has to be one of three places. Either more players are buying the same cosmetic via battlepass than would buy it via a store, the same number of people are paying more for that same cosmetic, or battlepass is causing people to stay subscribed longer than they otherwise would.

Which of these three do you believe would happen?

There is no fourth option, by the way. Other options simply don't fit in with your desire to be realistic, as your above post states.

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

I've already said. I want to experience the game in its full form. You said it yourself that cosmetics usually represent some part of the story or are even tied to lore. I want to experience that part of the story/lore.

Unless the BP is so damn automatic that I don't even need to look at it at all, but it'll still give me rewards - the BP will interrupt my immersion into the game by requiring me to progress it and claim the rewards (especially if it's a launcher/login screen BP).

The story part is going to drop in the game. It's basically automatic, but you could choose not to do the associated Quests.
You just assert that the BP would interrupt your immersion but you don't say how.
I dunno what "requiring you to progress means". Some of the stuff you do in-game will automatically progress you. You can choose whether or not you want to focus on BP Tasks or ignore them.
There is no launcher or loading screen. You get to the BP Tasks page with a hot key. In WoW, you can go visit the BP Trader in the game when you want to spend Cosmetic Coins for items.

NiKr wrote: »

I watched a video about NW's BP. You need to do a ton of extra steps to progress it and you definitely need to do a ton of shit to progress it optimally. I know that you dislike optimal gamers, cause they're not rpg gamers, but I am what I am, so I want to play the game in the way that's optimal to me.

I dunno what a "ton of extra steps" means. You choose to play the BP Cards or not.
I haven't said anything like optimal gamers are not RPG gamers.
But, if you want to obsess over completing the BP optimally - that's a you problem.

NiKr wrote: »

I always have something to do, but unless the BP covers absolutely every single activity in the game (and is fully automatic, as I said) - I will not magically progress the BP.

I'm a grind player, so I can go for weeks doing only one activity on repeat, because that kind of gameplay is optimal for what I'm trying to do. And then this grind most likely results in a different grind that requires me to repeat another activity for a very long time.

By definition a grind player cannot be an optimal player. Those words are polar opposites.
Grind means you are playing in the least efficient manner possible. That's why it's a grind.
I think what you mean is you're a Farmer.
The BP has Tasks for pretty much every activity in the game. You will "magically" progress the BP.
If you ignore the Tasks, you won't progress efficiently. Which will be irrelevant to you if you don't want any of the BP rewards.

NiKr wrote: »

I'd bet money, if I had any, that my style of gameplay will not result in me magically progressing the BP to its max lvl. This then means that I'd need to stop my preferred gameplay just to get a piece of lore I want from the BP. And it would also mean that I'd need to study the BP and do all of its task in the optimal way, to get the max lvl asap before the season changes and the cosmetics go away.

It probably won't magically take you to Max Level if you completely ignore the Tasks, but... you coud also look at the Tasks and see which ones match the stuff you want to do for your play session and optimize them.
That's not a ton of extra steps.

NiKr wrote: »

All of this goes directly against my style of play, while also gatekeeping me from the content I want to experience.

You say that because you have fabricated how BP's work in your head and then you act as if that's reality.
How is the BP gatekeeping you from the content you want to experience?
It is kinda gatekeeping you from some of the Cosmetic rewards.
I don't really see how it goes against your playstyle other than you seem to be hellbent on refusing to check the UI to see if there are any Tasks that line up with what you plan to do for your play session.
It takes like a minute to check. If there's stuff that matches what you want to do - great. If there's not, you wasted a minute of your play session.

NiKr wrote: »

I'm fine with direct purchase store because its cosmetic acquisition method is inherently separated from the game. I don't need to do anything in the game to get the reward, so in my mind the reward is disconnected from the game.

I guess you lost me on the value of having a reward that is disconnected from the game.
You're going to be playing the game anyway - why not get some Cosmetics rewards for doing the stuff in the game that you like to do?

NiKr wrote: »

It enhances YOUR gameplay, not mine. And seemingly not the gameplay of some other posters here.

You don't know whether it enhances your gameplay since you don't know how they actually work.
If you don't want the Cosmetics rewards, then no - your gameplay will not be enhanced.
And then, you can ignore the BP.

NiKr wrote: »

And to touch upon the cosmetic costs from a post later in the thread. The BP is not cheaper for the player. It's simply what the devs want you to think. They could've easily just sold the cosmetics from the BP at the price that's equally shared across the premium BP items. So if there's 10 cosmetics in the premium BP and the BP costs $10 per season - the cosmetics cost $1 per item.

It is cheaper for the player. I also spent tons of money on characters when I played vanilla Fortnite, before there was a Battlepass. So... the price point there was already set.

Like I said before... I don't spend any money on the Battlepasses for WoW and New World.
I buy maybe a couple things per year from the NW Cosmetics Store. But probably less.
I buy something from the WoW store maybe once every 2 years. I spent nothing on the WoW Season Pass.
So... Battlepass is literally cheaper.
Also, the items in the Fortnite Store are much, much cheaper than the items in the Ashes Store were.
Most of items in the Ashes Store were at least 2x the price of what's in the Fortnite Store. Each month, the Ashes Store had one item for $5. And then there would be something for $10, $20, $25.
The difference is that every day the Fortnite Store has a bunch of stuff I want for $5.

Same is basically true, too, for NW.
The Cosmetic Store prices were set 2 years before the Season Pass was implemented.
And, again, I play that Battlepass for free. Cheapest items in the Store are probably $10.

And same would also be true for WoW. Store price were set years before the Season Pass was a thing.
BP or no BP - it's highly unlikely that there will be any Cosmetics sold for $1.

NiKr wrote: »

But then, to trick the players, the BP designers calculate what's the hardest way to make people progress the BP, so that they HAVE TO play the game longer, to boost its metrics. But this is EVEN WORSE in a sub game, because this elongation of the BP means that they're explicitly baiting you into paying for another month of the sub, even if you might've not had any other reason to play the game during that month.

Who hurt you, my friend??
How the heck is "Eat 3 Food" or “Emote 5 Times” the hardest way to progress the BP?
Like I said, I moved from BP Level 1 to BP Level 5 in 45 minutes before I even looked at the new Battlepass.

There is no "HAVE TO play the game longer".
Once Nightingale hit Early Access, I took a month off of playing LEGO Fortnite. I still bought $100 worth of stuff from the Shop. I did not play the Battlepass at all.
I jumped back into LEGO Fortnite when they added the Star Wars story and Battlepass. Finished the LEGO Battlepass in 2 weeks - and I think that has another 2+ weeks before that is removed from the game.
I finished the main Fortnite Battlepass a few days after that.
The new Season dropped this morning. I finished building my new little base, so I'll be heading over to Nightingale this weekend to check out the Nightingale update that dropped Tuesday.

I stopped playing NW in December 2023 when LEGO Fortnite released.
I wanna check out the new NW Season, but I'm having too much fun with LEGO Fortnite and Nightingale.
I also wanna check out what's new with WoW, but I've been playing other stuff in the last year and haven't had time to check out the WoW Season Passes.

I stopped playing WoW to play New World when the first Battlepass dropped - especially because that also opened a new area on the map and also added Mounts.
I finished that Battlepass in time to start playing Diablo 4 with Fantm.
I think I stopped playing Diablo 4 to play Wagadu Chronicles.
Went back to NW for another Battlepass Season.
And then started playing LEGO Fortnite.

I don't HAVE TO play any of the games longer than I want to.
I do play them longer than I would with no Battlepass, sure, as long as there is a reward that I want.
Just as lots of gamers do when they chase BiS gear. Difference is that I am way more motivated by Cosmetics than I am by BiS gear.

NiKr wrote: »

So instead of $1 cosmetics, it's now "$1 + the monthly sub", and that's if you can even get your desired cosmetic that fast. Usually the best stuff is waaay later on into the BP, and quite often the later BP lvls require more XP per lvl. But even if Intrepid tried to seem "fairer" and had same XP for all lvls - that's still a ton of time to level up the BP before you get what you, theoretically, paid for.

Yeah... No.
That is not really a thing.
For one thing... I typically forget to cancel my WoW sube for a few months so I end up paying the sub even when I'm not playing the game - which means also not playing the WoW Season Pass.

I don't know what you mean by "if you can even get your desired cosmetic that fast".
You have 3 months to finish the Battlepass. I finished the LEGO Battlepass in 2 weeks.
And then finished the main Battlepass a few days later.
For sure, the LEGO Star Wars path was a flat 1000 Coins to complete each BP Level.
And for the main Fortnite Battlepass, it's supposed to be 80K XP per level.
I don't know what you can possibly mean by "a ton of time" when you're already playing the game anyway.

NiKr wrote: »

And I know that you'll say "oh the BP just progresses with your gameplay and is also quick to lvl up these days", but this speed usually requires you to look at what needs to be cleared to get the lvls faster. And as I said at the beginning of this post - that negatively impacts my gameplay.

Sure, I might take 15-20 minutes to knock out a handful of BP Tasks before I focus on the rest of my 8-hour play session.
No one is forcing you to play that way if you don't want to play that way. Just like no one forces me to do Raids. I mean non-consensual PvP literally interrupts gameplay. You can ignore the Battlepass if you don't like it. Just as I ignore Raids.

NiKr wrote: »

And if all of my problems get resolved by Intrepid putting an NPC into the game, removing any immersion-breaking UI, auto-progressing BP from literally any damn activity in the game, auto-rewarding you once the BP auto-progresses, and also only telling you about the premium BP outside of the game - why does all of that need to be a "BP" instead of just being a constant reward from anything you do and then an access to better rewards if you add some embers to that constant reward.

Again, I don't know what you mean by immersion-breaking UI. There's no immersion-breaking UI.
The BP UI is no more immersion-breaking than the Settings UI.
Of course, in any case, the Ashes UI is supposed to be customizable enough that you can toggle off the components you don’t like.
But, yeah, in WoW you can go to a Chest to see which items you can purchase.
I think you can't have it both ways. The premium path is going to be in the same location as the free path, so it's either going to all be near the Cosmetics NPC or it's going to be a menu you can open similar to opening Settings.

If you are constantly rewarded for anything you do - how would you check your progress?
Why are you thinking that Embers would not be part of the BP rewards?

NiKr wrote: »

Call it Essence token, reward one token for literally every activity in the game and then balance the cosmetic costs based on that. Except this hugely sounds like an "everyone's a winner" design and afaik Steven dislikes those. Which is also why I don't believe that Ashes will have a BP, because a BP is the same thing at its core - a system for everyone to win, while doing literally nothing to deserve that win.

Sure. Why call it Essence token? Why not just call it Embers?
How are you "winning" with Cosmetics? Steven didn't seem to have a problem with everyone "winning" with the APOC Battlepass.
Expect there to also be a premium path so that Intrepid makes some money - since the BP would probably be the form of the Cosmetics Market. So... everyone would not be "winning" the premium path.
Again... what is the win. And why is playing the Battle Pass "nothing"?

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

Hinotori wrote: »

I thought most of us didn't want that.

Most of us still don't. So far it's mostly only Dygz and Mag that are vehemently fighting to get chores in the game. Though they're fighting for that for different reasons

I'm not fighting to change the design in any way.
I'm trying to understand where and how you are getting such an insane vision of how BPs actually work.
BP Tasks aren't chores.

I said I expect Ashes to have a BP. I said nothing about changing anything.
Because I would be ignoring the Ashes BP just like I will be ignoring everything else in the game except exploring.

Dygz

Hinotori wrote: »

Battlepasses that do nothing but offer cosmetic rewards for what you're already doing make no sense. What's the point in that reward being in a battlepass when it could just be directly purchased? You're basically adding a daily log in requirement with a mandatory do X amount of things (dailies) for your carrot.

I thought most of us didn't want that.

Modern Battlepasses are not daily logins.
Outdate BPs had fomo that pushed players to login every day for a month - if you missed a day or missed a week, you would be sent back to the beginning of the path - or it would be impossible to complete the 30 rewards on the path before that group of rewards is removed.

With Modern BPs, you have 3 months to finish the end of the path. You can skip days, weeks, even an entire month or more, and still complete the BP before a new Season begins.

Dygz

Noaani wrote: »

Battlepass with cosmetics does one of three things.

1, it takes developer time.
2, it takes additional developers, which just results in the above.
3, it uses cosmetics that would have ended up in the store without a battlepass, which again results in the first point.

Thus, the only way battlepass in Ashes makes sense is if people would pay more to get the same item via battlepass than via cosmetic shop.

I personally don't think enough people are that stupid.

I really hope they aren't.

None of that is true.

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

I'm trying to understand where and how you are getting such an insane vision of how BPs actually work.
BP Tasks aren't chores.

Our playstyles are too different for us to understand each other. I explained my point as well as I could in that long post. Any other explanation will just result in you saying I don't understand how things work or you saying that you play in a different way, except I watched videos explaining how BPs work (and based my point around their mechanic) and I already said multiple times that to me BPs are immersion-breaking and have a negative impact on how I want to play, just as forced pvp has a negative impact on your playstyle.

Liniker

I just think its insane for a game with a mandatory monthly sub to charge extra for a battlepass, this would be one of the worst shit shows ever, worse than the Battle Royale was, the large audience would bash the game, AoC would be a bigger meme than Diablo Imortal was,

from a battle royale, to a 250$ alpha, to a monthly sub game with battlepass... whats next a VIP system on top of that? jesus.. at least its not on Steam for the overwhelmingly negative reviews...

Hopefully intrepid is self aware and learned their lesson

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

Our playstyles are too different for us to understand each other. I explained my point as well as I could in that long post. Any other explanation will just result in you saying I don't understand how things work or you saying that you play in a different way, except I watched videos explaining how BPs work (and based my point around their mechanic) and I already said multiple times that to me BPs are immersion-breaking and have a negative impact on how I want to play, just as forced pvp has a negative impact on your playstyle.

OK. Thanks.

bloodprophet

Looking into How the battle pass works. There very little information on HOW it works. They are all excited to show all the shiny stuff but nowhere does it list the tasks or what it take to unlock stuff.

Did find this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzASLwyVVW0

and back to my earlier point of it being abuse 6:40. This is abuse. They know what they are doing and taking advantage for people.

Ludullu

bloodprophet wrote: »

Did find this.

This is the "BP designers" I was talking about. Studio resources are spent on hiring people who'll balance out all the tasks and rewards and timings - all just to squeeze out the most money out of people. If BP was the cheapest way for the player to give money to the company, the companies wouldn't do their darnedest to put a BP into any kind of game, because it obviously makes waaay more money than direct cosmetic sales, which means that people are getting tricked into buying BPs AND giving the game all their time, because those players now have sunk cost fallacy hanging over their heads.

If BPs, as a concept, weren't so easily abused - no corpa would push them this much. But when even Blizzard adds it to the game - you know BPs have hit peak capitalism.

Dygz

LMAO
You watched a biased video designed to convince people that Battlepasses suck in order to determine whether or not you are correct that Battlepasses suck.
OK.

That is not an accurate description of the Fortnite Battlepass, but if you believe that is true, I totally understand why you think it sucks. If the Fortnite Battlepass actually was as described in this video, I wouldn't want it either.

bloodprophet

Ya I find it very sketchy. I would think if it was a good thing and you were proud of it you woulld just provide a list for your customers of what they can expect this season on the BP.

The point on spending money to then play 100 hours and still not get what you paid for is super sketchy. In a F2P game I get your trying to make money but at a minimum be honest with your customers.

Read something the other day and don't remember who said it.
"You'll get more of anything you reward."

The companies keep doing this because people reward them for it. Is like most of what ails global society. If we keep rewarding this poor behavior it will continue.

bloodprophet

Dygz wrote: »

LMAO
You watched a biased video designed to convince people that Battlepasses suck in order to determine whether or not you are correct that Battlepasses suck.
OK.

Show me a better one.

Dygz

I don't know if there's a better one.
I just know that is a crazy, conspiracy theory video.

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