NiKr wrote: » You paid to be in the shop ($15/m sub), you paid for the "discounted comics" (even though this is still above their production cost, and the "normal" price is simply a huge upsell), and you pull in more fish by being present at the shop (the playtime metrics), which means that even more fish get baited just like you.
Dygz wrote: » NiKr wrote: » You paid to be in the shop ($15/m sub), you paid for the "discounted comics" (even though this is still above their production cost, and the "normal" price is simply a huge upsell), and you pull in more fish by being present at the shop (the playtime metrics), which means that even more fish get baited just like you. Again, the price of Cosmetics is industry standard - set years before Battlepass was thing. The normal price can't really be an upsell when the prices were set years before Battlepasses ever existed. Cosmetic Store became a trend - that's where the predatory aspect hit. The discounted comics would not really be above production costs. The discount is just offset because it will entice me to spend more if I'm around more. Fortnite works because I'm likely to spend $100 per month in the Item Shop anyway. Because they have Cosmetics I deem worth paying $12 - $15 each multiple times each week. The Cosmetics in the Ashes Shop, the WoW Shop and the NW Shop are all too expensive for the value, in my view. And they are static for a month, rather than changing daily or weekly. So, the BPs don't entice me to check the store daily or weekly for something to buy. Again, I play the free version of the WoW Battlepass. The predatory aspect for WoW is the recurring payment, rather than month-to-month payment. Anything that can get me to subscribe again means that So, free Seasonal DLC works the same as a free Battlepass in terms of money. Either way, I would probably pay three subs before I noticed that I hadn't actually played in the past 2 months. But, I probably would play the Seasonal DLC for 20-30 hours without a Battlepass and I would play 100 hours with a BP. So, that's really about retaining peak player population. I think the main issue with the NW paid path is that it's P2W.
Dygz wrote: » Again, the price of Cosmetics is industry standard - set years before Battlepass was thing.
Legi wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Legi wrote: » Dygz wrote: » Legi wrote: » In general I think BPs are stupid. You buy something that gives you something if you additionally spend time in the game..? Typically, in modern BPs, there is a free path. You don't have to buy the free path of a BP. Legi wrote: » I think its a concept that prays on fomo and adds pressure to play a game to complete the pass. Modern BPs have very little fomo and provide ample time to reach the end of the BP if you want to reach the end. Legi wrote: » Where you get what you pay for without additional work you need to put in. But the developer somehow has to make a living and if BPs are their way of doing it, why not. I mean... the devs/publisher get more money from Store/Shop purchases. But, the players who like Cosmetics will happily play the game for more hours with a BP than they would if they immediately get the Cosmetics by direct pay at full price. The 80%-90% discount on items + Embers/vBucks/Traveler's Tender is worth doing stuff in the game that you like to but want some new rewards besides another Achievements Title. Legi wrote: » When you have a box prices and/or a subsciption model I dont want to see a BP, a VIP model and honestly no costume or QoL cash shop either. Sure, but... we know the plan is for Ashes to have a Cosmetics Shop. So, we can expect the to also have a BP with discounted Cosmetics. All good and fine, I was just stating my opinion on the matter of having a BP in a MMO and that didnt change. Overly monetizing Ashes with box cost + sub + bp + cash shop will be a very big minus for me and probably many other people too. I will probably still play it if its a good game, but I dont like it and think its a greedy move thats bad for the reputation of the game. Sure times changed, especially with mobile game monetization and p2w being more accepted nowadays, yet I still remember games like DAoC and Vanilla WoW. There it felt better doing something in the game, achieving something in the game. We will see how its going to be, I hope that we wont have a BP or the like and that the cash shop isnt going to be too big. I rather earn my armor/looks inside of the game instead of swiping for it and even if I dont swipe myself, for other people to have the option diminishes my accomplishments in the game. Because there is a store where you can buy items nothing changes. The difference with a BP is it is a option to save money. Any issue with people being able to just buy things and diminish accomplishments has nothing to do with a BP and is a store related issue. Again its not greedy as the BP saves you money, and IS are not doing a box or expansion cost. ATm they are very far from being greedy. But BP issue and store issue can be solved by making everyone buy expansions and a box cost + sub. Less content in-between and more content during major expansions. No market and everyone has to buy the box and expansion (which has its own issue of separating the player base). Which eventually people need to realize this is the best route imo keeping player base together with no p2w. Is it stated somewhere that BP skins can be bought outside of the BP and its really only to save money? Or is that an assumption on your side? Alot of games make BP skins BP exclusive. I was under the assumption that ashes will have a box cost. Dont know if I mixed this up or they changed it at some point. This is good news and makes a BP more acceptable, but I still dont like the concept, which has nothing to do with ashes. I understand that box + sub would have a higher entry barrier and that would probably lead to fewer players.. but it would mean a barrier for bots too.. but thats another topic. I dont know the best solution for it, I would just like to see ashes being better than the current market of mmorpgs. Thats one of the reasons why I have hope for this game.
Mag7spy wrote: » Legi wrote: » Dygz wrote: » Legi wrote: » In general I think BPs are stupid. You buy something that gives you something if you additionally spend time in the game..? Typically, in modern BPs, there is a free path. You don't have to buy the free path of a BP. Legi wrote: » I think its a concept that prays on fomo and adds pressure to play a game to complete the pass. Modern BPs have very little fomo and provide ample time to reach the end of the BP if you want to reach the end. Legi wrote: » Where you get what you pay for without additional work you need to put in. But the developer somehow has to make a living and if BPs are their way of doing it, why not. I mean... the devs/publisher get more money from Store/Shop purchases. But, the players who like Cosmetics will happily play the game for more hours with a BP than they would if they immediately get the Cosmetics by direct pay at full price. The 80%-90% discount on items + Embers/vBucks/Traveler's Tender is worth doing stuff in the game that you like to but want some new rewards besides another Achievements Title. Legi wrote: » When you have a box prices and/or a subsciption model I dont want to see a BP, a VIP model and honestly no costume or QoL cash shop either. Sure, but... we know the plan is for Ashes to have a Cosmetics Shop. So, we can expect the to also have a BP with discounted Cosmetics. All good and fine, I was just stating my opinion on the matter of having a BP in a MMO and that didnt change. Overly monetizing Ashes with box cost + sub + bp + cash shop will be a very big minus for me and probably many other people too. I will probably still play it if its a good game, but I dont like it and think its a greedy move thats bad for the reputation of the game. Sure times changed, especially with mobile game monetization and p2w being more accepted nowadays, yet I still remember games like DAoC and Vanilla WoW. There it felt better doing something in the game, achieving something in the game. We will see how its going to be, I hope that we wont have a BP or the like and that the cash shop isnt going to be too big. I rather earn my armor/looks inside of the game instead of swiping for it and even if I dont swipe myself, for other people to have the option diminishes my accomplishments in the game. Because there is a store where you can buy items nothing changes. The difference with a BP is it is a option to save money. Any issue with people being able to just buy things and diminish accomplishments has nothing to do with a BP and is a store related issue. Again its not greedy as the BP saves you money, and IS are not doing a box or expansion cost. ATm they are very far from being greedy. But BP issue and store issue can be solved by making everyone buy expansions and a box cost + sub. Less content in-between and more content during major expansions. No market and everyone has to buy the box and expansion (which has its own issue of separating the player base). Which eventually people need to realize this is the best route imo keeping player base together with no p2w.
Legi wrote: » Dygz wrote: » Legi wrote: » In general I think BPs are stupid. You buy something that gives you something if you additionally spend time in the game..? Typically, in modern BPs, there is a free path. You don't have to buy the free path of a BP. Legi wrote: » I think its a concept that prays on fomo and adds pressure to play a game to complete the pass. Modern BPs have very little fomo and provide ample time to reach the end of the BP if you want to reach the end. Legi wrote: » Where you get what you pay for without additional work you need to put in. But the developer somehow has to make a living and if BPs are their way of doing it, why not. I mean... the devs/publisher get more money from Store/Shop purchases. But, the players who like Cosmetics will happily play the game for more hours with a BP than they would if they immediately get the Cosmetics by direct pay at full price. The 80%-90% discount on items + Embers/vBucks/Traveler's Tender is worth doing stuff in the game that you like to but want some new rewards besides another Achievements Title. Legi wrote: » When you have a box prices and/or a subsciption model I dont want to see a BP, a VIP model and honestly no costume or QoL cash shop either. Sure, but... we know the plan is for Ashes to have a Cosmetics Shop. So, we can expect the to also have a BP with discounted Cosmetics. All good and fine, I was just stating my opinion on the matter of having a BP in a MMO and that didnt change. Overly monetizing Ashes with box cost + sub + bp + cash shop will be a very big minus for me and probably many other people too. I will probably still play it if its a good game, but I dont like it and think its a greedy move thats bad for the reputation of the game. Sure times changed, especially with mobile game monetization and p2w being more accepted nowadays, yet I still remember games like DAoC and Vanilla WoW. There it felt better doing something in the game, achieving something in the game. We will see how its going to be, I hope that we wont have a BP or the like and that the cash shop isnt going to be too big. I rather earn my armor/looks inside of the game instead of swiping for it and even if I dont swipe myself, for other people to have the option diminishes my accomplishments in the game.
Dygz wrote: » Legi wrote: » In general I think BPs are stupid. You buy something that gives you something if you additionally spend time in the game..? Typically, in modern BPs, there is a free path. You don't have to buy the free path of a BP. Legi wrote: » I think its a concept that prays on fomo and adds pressure to play a game to complete the pass. Modern BPs have very little fomo and provide ample time to reach the end of the BP if you want to reach the end. Legi wrote: » Where you get what you pay for without additional work you need to put in. But the developer somehow has to make a living and if BPs are their way of doing it, why not. I mean... the devs/publisher get more money from Store/Shop purchases. But, the players who like Cosmetics will happily play the game for more hours with a BP than they would if they immediately get the Cosmetics by direct pay at full price. The 80%-90% discount on items + Embers/vBucks/Traveler's Tender is worth doing stuff in the game that you like to but want some new rewards besides another Achievements Title. Legi wrote: » When you have a box prices and/or a subsciption model I dont want to see a BP, a VIP model and honestly no costume or QoL cash shop either. Sure, but... we know the plan is for Ashes to have a Cosmetics Shop. So, we can expect the to also have a BP with discounted Cosmetics.
Legi wrote: » In general I think BPs are stupid. You buy something that gives you something if you additionally spend time in the game..?
Legi wrote: » I think its a concept that prays on fomo and adds pressure to play a game to complete the pass.
Legi wrote: » Where you get what you pay for without additional work you need to put in. But the developer somehow has to make a living and if BPs are their way of doing it, why not.
Legi wrote: » When you have a box prices and/or a subsciption model I dont want to see a BP, a VIP model and honestly no costume or QoL cash shop either.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Again this argument doesn't make sense because than you can use the same point for any sale in the world and say every store is scamming you. Shows 50% store is trying to scam you, buy one butter get one free, that store is trying to scam you. It makes 0 sense. Having a reason to go into a store is their selling point, being in a store does not mean you are being scammed. If the general price in industry standard and not higher things are fine. If it is higher than less people buy it so they lose money. If its too cheap they lose money as well since it takes less to buy it, or people feel they have enough cosmetics already and don't care as much for more. Sales are a scam. They're meant to make you buy at least something rather than not buying anything at all. And they're also meant to get you into the store, so it's way more likely for you to see something else you might wanna buy. As main examples of that I present you Dygz, who buy shit in the cosmetic store even though he already does the BP, and I can give the example of my mom who keeps saying "well, it was on sale so I just HAD TO BUY IT". It's always a scam. And as I said before, quite often shops will increase the price of something by, say, 20% and make the sale 10-15%. But because people never pay true attention to the prices of things, they just see huge red letters S A L E and their brain fires off dopamine of "omg I'm about to make a deal of my life".
Mag7spy wrote: » Again this argument doesn't make sense because than you can use the same point for any sale in the world and say every store is scamming you. Shows 50% store is trying to scam you, buy one butter get one free, that store is trying to scam you. It makes 0 sense. Having a reason to go into a store is their selling point, being in a store does not mean you are being scammed. If the general price in industry standard and not higher things are fine. If it is higher than less people buy it so they lose money. If its too cheap they lose money as well since it takes less to buy it, or people feel they have enough cosmetics already and don't care as much for more.
Mag7spy wrote: » If all sales are a scam, then they really don't need to do any different in their sales, and I'm fine with scams if they mean items are reduced prices lmao.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » If all sales are a scam, then they really don't need to do any different in their sales, and I'm fine with scams if they mean items are reduced prices lmao. This is what I've been saying for pages now. Both you and Dygz seem to be completely fine with being used by the corpos. And that's totally fine, you're adults and all that. But I don't want to be used, so I keep saying that I don't want a BP in Ashes.
NiKr wrote: » This is what I've been saying for pages now. Both you and Dygz seem to be completely fine with being used by the corpos. And that's totally fine, you're adults and all that. But I don't want to be used, so I keep saying that I don't want a BP in Ashes.
Dygz wrote: » Dunno what you mean by used. WoW and NW give me free new rewards to do stuff I like to do in their games. And LEGO Fortnite has items in their Item Shop that I'm willing to spend $110 on each month. And that extra $10 also gives me a bunch of fun Tasks to do for 100 hours and also gives me 2x the items + $10 worth of vBucks and stops me from spending more than $200 a month in the Item Shop.
Dygz wrote: » How does a system that can be ignored make people feel used?
Dygz wrote: » The predatory aspect for WoW is the recurring payment, rather than month-to-month payment.
Noaani wrote: » Dygz wrote: » How does a system that can be ignored make people feel used? Perhaps talk to gambling addicts, or alcoholics. Both of these things can be ignored.
Legi wrote: » Dygz wrote: » The predatory aspect for WoW is the recurring payment, rather than month-to-month payment. Dygz wrote: » How does a system that can be ignored make people feel used? You do realize that you can just cancel your sub every month and pay month to month? How is that predatory? Imo creating fomo, which modern battle passes do, cause you often cant get the stuff from the BP outside of it, is predatory. Noaani wrote: » Dygz wrote: » How does a system that can be ignored make people feel used? Perhaps talk to gambling addicts, or alcoholics. Both of these things can be ignored. So much that. If everyone could resist temptation or fomo we wouldnt need so many regulations. And dont get me started to children getting flooded by this kind of stuff. I am so happy to have grown up with videogames that dont try to "steal" my pocket money.
Mag7spy wrote: » Legi wrote: » Dygz wrote: » The predatory aspect for WoW is the recurring payment, rather than month-to-month payment. Dygz wrote: » How does a system that can be ignored make people feel used? You do realize that you can just cancel your sub every month and pay month to month? How is that predatory? Imo creating fomo, which modern battle passes do, cause you often cant get the stuff from the BP outside of it, is predatory. Noaani wrote: » Dygz wrote: » How does a system that can be ignored make people feel used? Perhaps talk to gambling addicts, or alcoholics. Both of these things can be ignored. So much that. If everyone could resist temptation or fomo we wouldnt need so many regulations. And dont get me started to children getting flooded by this kind of stuff. I am so happy to have grown up with videogames that dont try to "steal" my pocket money. This doesn't make sense its like saying if you don't buy a item on the store its fomo. You can use the same argument on any store item. So its not valid against a bp. If there is any store item you don't want simply don't buy it, these are cosmetics. You can earn in game armor like a normal mmmorpg you are not missing out on anything.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Legi wrote: » Dygz wrote: » The predatory aspect for WoW is the recurring payment, rather than month-to-month payment. Dygz wrote: » How does a system that can be ignored make people feel used? You do realize that you can just cancel your sub every month and pay month to month? How is that predatory? Imo creating fomo, which modern battle passes do, cause you often cant get the stuff from the BP outside of it, is predatory. Noaani wrote: » Dygz wrote: » How does a system that can be ignored make people feel used? Perhaps talk to gambling addicts, or alcoholics. Both of these things can be ignored. So much that. If everyone could resist temptation or fomo we wouldnt need so many regulations. And dont get me started to children getting flooded by this kind of stuff. I am so happy to have grown up with videogames that dont try to "steal" my pocket money. This doesn't make sense its like saying if you don't buy a item on the store its fomo. You can use the same argument on any store item. So its not valid against a bp. If there is any store item you don't want simply don't buy it, these are cosmetics. You can earn in game armor like a normal mmmorpg you are not missing out on anything. Is a BP okay if it only rewards lootboxes? I'm not making a serious point here, nor intending to derail anything with it, just really curious what you think of that.
Mag7spy wrote: » This doesn't make sense its like saying if you don't buy a item on the store its fomo. You can use the same argument on any store item. So its not valid against a bp. If there is any store item you don't want simply don't buy it, these are cosmetics. You can earn in game armor like a normal mmmorpg you are not missing out on anything.
Legi wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » This doesn't make sense its like saying if you don't buy a item on the store its fomo. You can use the same argument on any store item. So its not valid against a bp. If there is any store item you don't want simply don't buy it, these are cosmetics. You can earn in game armor like a normal mmmorpg you are not missing out on anything. My experience with battle passes is, that they offer something unique to the battle pass and and for a limited time only. So if you want it, you have to get the BP and have to finish the BP in that specific timeframe. Items in stores usually dont disappear, so no fomo there. Excpetions might be items for special events like christmas, halloween or such and those special items prey on fomo as well. I dont know what doesnt make sense there. Its just what the phrase means. If all items are in the shop forever its totally fine. If you want to have sales from time to time for those items thats imo totally fine as well. If the BP only includes stuff you could also buy in the shop but at a discounted price, thats fine too. There are many ways to give players a fair option to buy stuff without artificially creating fomo or making stuff rare and BPs, atleast the way they are usually implemented, arent one of them.
Tetterian wrote: » Adding Battle Passes which reward cosmetics, companions, and titles removes the potential of achievements and their role for players to play hunt for rewards.
