Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » There are two types of content that exist. Horizontal and Vertical. Vertical content invalidates earlier content. This is what you are talking about. Why make lv 1 gear because no one buys it when you can make level 50 gear...or the new patch comes out level 60 gear. Its one of the reasons WoW got so bloated. No one wants level 50 gear because level 60 gear exists. Horizonal content would be something like enchanments. It takes different skills and different materials, but doesnt invalidate anything that exists. You still need the same gear as before to enchant, but now you can enchant it. If you make it so lv 1-50 doesnt matter to a crafter, they probably wont grind through it just to make the "super awesome dragon slayer" because that only starts after 50. If ashes wants a player driven economy, it needs gear sinks. If they want things to be reasonably priced, they need gold sinks. Lost Ark and other RNG driven games lose people because RNG for the sake of a sink is shitty. Does it suck to lose a gear set because someone fights you? Sometimes. Does it lead to better stories? Usually. Does it add to the risk factor? Most certainly. Risk and reward is constantly said in terms of AoC. Does going to get a top tier crafting material add risk? It should. Could you lose your gear doing it? Maybe. But should the rewards also match? yes. This can all be balanced. But a gear sink is what allows crafters to provide meaningful contributions. For those who are saying that isnt what AoC is about, you are wrong. Steven has said that it is for people who want to craft or gather or RP. That wont be the only aspect of the game, but one of many.
Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » Does it suck to lose a gear set because someone fights you? Sometimes.
Diamaht wrote: » I'm saying that you 100% percent have to have meaningful sinks.
Noaani wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » I'm saying that you 100% percent have to have meaningful sinks. Ashes has gear loss via enchanting. That is a sink. That is the same sink Archeage has. It is enough.
Diamaht wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » I'm saying that you 100% percent have to have meaningful sinks. Ashes has gear loss via enchanting. That is a sink. That is the same sink Archeage has. It is enough. I hope so. It comes down to how much it's incentivized and leveraged. If it's required in order to be successful and it includes low to mid level gear, to get some of that out of circulation too, then great. If it's just a casual, "you don't really need this" sort if thing, then no.
Noaani wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » I'm saying that you 100% percent have to have meaningful sinks. Ashes has gear loss via enchanting. That is a sink. That is the same sink Archeage has. It is enough. I hope so. It comes down to how much it's incentivized and leveraged. If it's required in order to be successful and it includes low to mid level gear, to get some of that out of circulation too, then great. If it's just a casual, "you don't really need this" sort if thing, then no. The way to get lower to mid tier gear out of circulation is to require it as a component in top tier gear. Then, not only are you taking it our of circulation, you are maintaining a healthy market for it from top tier players. Keep in mind, and market that isn't driven by players at the level cap can just be skipped. The above is what Archeage did, and what Steven has suggested is his goal with Ashes (though he hasn't outright stated it).
Aszkalon wrote: » This is still concerning how much some People concern themselves over things they should have no Business being concerned with. The Game is not even in Alpha Two yet. And yet, this concerning Development of probably fear-based concern is concerning our Community in the Forum.
Depraved wrote: » Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » There are two types of content that exist. Horizontal and Vertical. Vertical content invalidates earlier content. This is what you are talking about. Why make lv 1 gear because no one buys it when you can make level 50 gear...or the new patch comes out level 60 gear. Its one of the reasons WoW got so bloated. No one wants level 50 gear because level 60 gear exists. Horizonal content would be something like enchanments. It takes different skills and different materials, but doesnt invalidate anything that exists. You still need the same gear as before to enchant, but now you can enchant it. If you make it so lv 1-50 doesnt matter to a crafter, they probably wont grind through it just to make the "super awesome dragon slayer" because that only starts after 50. If ashes wants a player driven economy, it needs gear sinks. If they want things to be reasonably priced, they need gold sinks. Lost Ark and other RNG driven games lose people because RNG for the sake of a sink is shitty. Does it suck to lose a gear set because someone fights you? Sometimes. Does it lead to better stories? Usually. Does it add to the risk factor? Most certainly. Risk and reward is constantly said in terms of AoC. Does going to get a top tier crafting material add risk? It should. Could you lose your gear doing it? Maybe. But should the rewards also match? yes. This can all be balanced. But a gear sink is what allows crafters to provide meaningful contributions. For those who are saying that isnt what AoC is about, you are wrong. Steven has said that it is for people who want to craft or gather or RP. That wont be the only aspect of the game, but one of many. ok I'm back. time to reply, don't think I forgot about this ;3 now you (and Diahmat) are saying that if there isn't main gear destruction, low and mid tier crafting wont have an impact in the economy. these things arent mutually exclusive. you can have main gear destruction and make it so low and mid tier crafting arent impactful. you can also remove gear destruction and make low and mid tier crafting impactful. to make low and mid tier crafting impactful, you have to design with that in mid and build a system around it. a max level player whose gear got destroyed wont want a level 1 sword, or level 10 sword...these things arent mutually exclusive. regarding sinks. no, a game doesn't need gear sinks. it needs sinks, period. you don't need to have main gear destruction to have sinks. in this case I'm assuming gear destruction when you mean gear sinks. if you just mean gear sinks, then you can have gear sinks without main gear destruction (new gear making old gear obsolete for example). gear destruction isn't the only possible way to have a sink. so by claiming that the game means gear isnks (not destruction) you are agreeing that gear destruction isn't the only way to keep the economy going, since gear destruction isn't the only way to add gear sinks and contradicting yourself. regarding risk and reward, you are also forgetting about balance. tell me which one makes more sense to you: spend 6 months getting all the mats to craft your gear because of the high difficulty/quantity of mats acquisition, then lose your gear in 6 mins. now you have to spend another 6 months re acquiring the same mats. or spend 1 hour getting more gear then lose it after a bit. it will be hard to get gear in aoc as already stated by steven. you basically want them to make gear really easy to acquire simply because you believe there is only one solution for a particular problem. presenting the problem is completely fine, but this better to leave the solution to the devs. they are the ones who know the game after all, we don't. tell me how many times you go to your doctor, then you tell him your symptoms and then tell him how to treat you and what medicine to give you. its the same thing. also, just because you drop gear, doesn't mean the gear is destroyed. the gear isn't removed from the economy. another player has it, so the gear still exists in the world (its not a gear sink) and can be sold or traded without needing to be crafted. i don't see how you claim this is the same as gear destruction or that it will help crafters. regarding wether crafting and rp is more important than combat in aoc, just because crafters and rpers have a place in the game, doesn't mean the game is focused on crafting or rping (acting). a basketball player can enjoy a baseball or soccer match every now and then. remove crafting and roleplaying from aoc, you still have combat, mobs, PVP, bosses, dungeons, caravans, castle sieges, naval combat, archetypes, node wars, etc, etc. remove combat and all you have is pressing e on a tree and then e again on a crafting station. no more mobs, PVP, bosses, dungeons, caravans, castle sieges, naval combat, archetypes, node wars, etc, etc. so really, Is it the same game? are crafters more important? don't think so.
Diamaht wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » There are two types of content that exist. Horizontal and Vertical. Vertical content invalidates earlier content. This is what you are talking about. Why make lv 1 gear because no one buys it when you can make level 50 gear...or the new patch comes out level 60 gear. Its one of the reasons WoW got so bloated. No one wants level 50 gear because level 60 gear exists. Horizonal content would be something like enchanments. It takes different skills and different materials, but doesnt invalidate anything that exists. You still need the same gear as before to enchant, but now you can enchant it. If you make it so lv 1-50 doesnt matter to a crafter, they probably wont grind through it just to make the "super awesome dragon slayer" because that only starts after 50. If ashes wants a player driven economy, it needs gear sinks. If they want things to be reasonably priced, they need gold sinks. Lost Ark and other RNG driven games lose people because RNG for the sake of a sink is shitty. Does it suck to lose a gear set because someone fights you? Sometimes. Does it lead to better stories? Usually. Does it add to the risk factor? Most certainly. Risk and reward is constantly said in terms of AoC. Does going to get a top tier crafting material add risk? It should. Could you lose your gear doing it? Maybe. But should the rewards also match? yes. This can all be balanced. But a gear sink is what allows crafters to provide meaningful contributions. For those who are saying that isnt what AoC is about, you are wrong. Steven has said that it is for people who want to craft or gather or RP. That wont be the only aspect of the game, but one of many. ok I'm back. time to reply, don't think I forgot about this ;3 now you (and Diahmat) are saying that if there isn't main gear destruction, low and mid tier crafting wont have an impact in the economy. these things arent mutually exclusive. you can have main gear destruction and make it so low and mid tier crafting arent impactful. you can also remove gear destruction and make low and mid tier crafting impactful. to make low and mid tier crafting impactful, you have to design with that in mid and build a system around it. a max level player whose gear got destroyed wont want a level 1 sword, or level 10 sword...these things arent mutually exclusive. regarding sinks. no, a game doesn't need gear sinks. it needs sinks, period. you don't need to have main gear destruction to have sinks. in this case I'm assuming gear destruction when you mean gear sinks. if you just mean gear sinks, then you can have gear sinks without main gear destruction (new gear making old gear obsolete for example). gear destruction isn't the only possible way to have a sink. so by claiming that the game means gear isnks (not destruction) you are agreeing that gear destruction isn't the only way to keep the economy going, since gear destruction isn't the only way to add gear sinks and contradicting yourself. regarding risk and reward, you are also forgetting about balance. tell me which one makes more sense to you: spend 6 months getting all the mats to craft your gear because of the high difficulty/quantity of mats acquisition, then lose your gear in 6 mins. now you have to spend another 6 months re acquiring the same mats. or spend 1 hour getting more gear then lose it after a bit. it will be hard to get gear in aoc as already stated by steven. you basically want them to make gear really easy to acquire simply because you believe there is only one solution for a particular problem. presenting the problem is completely fine, but this better to leave the solution to the devs. they are the ones who know the game after all, we don't. tell me how many times you go to your doctor, then you tell him your symptoms and then tell him how to treat you and what medicine to give you. its the same thing. also, just because you drop gear, doesn't mean the gear is destroyed. the gear isn't removed from the economy. another player has it, so the gear still exists in the world (its not a gear sink) and can be sold or traded without needing to be crafted. i don't see how you claim this is the same as gear destruction or that it will help crafters. regarding wether crafting and rp is more important than combat in aoc, just because crafters and rpers have a place in the game, doesn't mean the game is focused on crafting or rping (acting). a basketball player can enjoy a baseball or soccer match every now and then. remove crafting and roleplaying from aoc, you still have combat, mobs, PVP, bosses, dungeons, caravans, castle sieges, naval combat, archetypes, node wars, etc, etc. remove combat and all you have is pressing e on a tree and then e again on a crafting station. no more mobs, PVP, bosses, dungeons, caravans, castle sieges, naval combat, archetypes, node wars, etc, etc. so really, Is it the same game? are crafters more important? don't think so. Welcome back! You are taking what I've said and are stretching it into something I don't recognize again. I actually agree with most of what you said. 1. General sinks must exist: Yes 2. Gear sinks don't have to exist: No. Any section of the economy that doesn't have something that acts a sink will build up over time and cause issues. 3. The only way to skin the cat is through durability: No, it can be done a lot of ways. Repair costs is nice, requiring low gear to make higher gear is great. They just have to be strong enough sinks to make a difference. 4. "Best to leave this to the devs": No, I've thought about it and decided that I'm going to design it for them. Start to finish. 5. RP vs Combat or something: I'm not sure what you meant there. You asked in an earlier post if the crafter or the adventurer was more important. In this context the crafter takes priority in design choices. Crafters 3 years after launch should have all the same business options that crafters day one have. If Intrepid can manage it. 6. It being hard to aquire gear can be enough of a sink: I honestly don't think so. It just makes it take longer to flood the market. There is not one solution, and I think you guys are right in saying it can be a combination of small solutions. We will see as things get released, but I'm definitely worried about it with the info we currently have.
Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » There are two types of content that exist. Horizontal and Vertical. Vertical content invalidates earlier content. This is what you are talking about. Why make lv 1 gear because no one buys it when you can make level 50 gear...or the new patch comes out level 60 gear. Its one of the reasons WoW got so bloated. No one wants level 50 gear because level 60 gear exists. Horizonal content would be something like enchanments. It takes different skills and different materials, but doesnt invalidate anything that exists. You still need the same gear as before to enchant, but now you can enchant it. If you make it so lv 1-50 doesnt matter to a crafter, they probably wont grind through it just to make the "super awesome dragon slayer" because that only starts after 50. If ashes wants a player driven economy, it needs gear sinks. If they want things to be reasonably priced, they need gold sinks. Lost Ark and other RNG driven games lose people because RNG for the sake of a sink is shitty. Does it suck to lose a gear set because someone fights you? Sometimes. Does it lead to better stories? Usually. Does it add to the risk factor? Most certainly. Risk and reward is constantly said in terms of AoC. Does going to get a top tier crafting material add risk? It should. Could you lose your gear doing it? Maybe. But should the rewards also match? yes. This can all be balanced. But a gear sink is what allows crafters to provide meaningful contributions. For those who are saying that isnt what AoC is about, you are wrong. Steven has said that it is for people who want to craft or gather or RP. That wont be the only aspect of the game, but one of many. ok I'm back. time to reply, don't think I forgot about this ;3 now you (and Diahmat) are saying that if there isn't main gear destruction, low and mid tier crafting wont have an impact in the economy. these things arent mutually exclusive. you can have main gear destruction and make it so low and mid tier crafting arent impactful. you can also remove gear destruction and make low and mid tier crafting impactful. to make low and mid tier crafting impactful, you have to design with that in mid and build a system around it. a max level player whose gear got destroyed wont want a level 1 sword, or level 10 sword...these things arent mutually exclusive. regarding sinks. no, a game doesn't need gear sinks. it needs sinks, period. you don't need to have main gear destruction to have sinks. in this case I'm assuming gear destruction when you mean gear sinks. if you just mean gear sinks, then you can have gear sinks without main gear destruction (new gear making old gear obsolete for example). gear destruction isn't the only possible way to have a sink. so by claiming that the game means gear isnks (not destruction) you are agreeing that gear destruction isn't the only way to keep the economy going, since gear destruction isn't the only way to add gear sinks and contradicting yourself. regarding risk and reward, you are also forgetting about balance. tell me which one makes more sense to you: spend 6 months getting all the mats to craft your gear because of the high difficulty/quantity of mats acquisition, then lose your gear in 6 mins. now you have to spend another 6 months re acquiring the same mats. or spend 1 hour getting more gear then lose it after a bit. it will be hard to get gear in aoc as already stated by steven. you basically want them to make gear really easy to acquire simply because you believe there is only one solution for a particular problem. presenting the problem is completely fine, but this better to leave the solution to the devs. they are the ones who know the game after all, we don't. tell me how many times you go to your doctor, then you tell him your symptoms and then tell him how to treat you and what medicine to give you. its the same thing. also, just because you drop gear, doesn't mean the gear is destroyed. the gear isn't removed from the economy. another player has it, so the gear still exists in the world (its not a gear sink) and can be sold or traded without needing to be crafted. i don't see how you claim this is the same as gear destruction or that it will help crafters. regarding wether crafting and rp is more important than combat in aoc, just because crafters and rpers have a place in the game, doesn't mean the game is focused on crafting or rping (acting). a basketball player can enjoy a baseball or soccer match every now and then. remove crafting and roleplaying from aoc, you still have combat, mobs, PVP, bosses, dungeons, caravans, castle sieges, naval combat, archetypes, node wars, etc, etc. remove combat and all you have is pressing e on a tree and then e again on a crafting station. no more mobs, PVP, bosses, dungeons, caravans, castle sieges, naval combat, archetypes, node wars, etc, etc. so really, Is it the same game? are crafters more important? don't think so. Welcome back! You are taking what I've said and are stretching it into something I don't recognize again. I actually agree with most of what you said. 1. General sinks must exist: Yes 2. Gear sinks don't have to exist: No. Any section of the economy that doesn't have something that acts a sink will build up over time and cause issues. 3. The only way to skin the cat is through durability: No, it can be done a lot of ways. Repair costs is nice, requiring low gear to make higher gear is great. They just have to be strong enough sinks to make a difference. 4. "Best to leave this to the devs": No, I've thought about it and decided that I'm going to design it for them. Start to finish. 5. RP vs Combat or something: I'm not sure what you meant there. You asked in an earlier post if the crafter or the adventurer was more important. In this context the crafter takes priority in design choices. Crafters 3 years after launch should have all the same business options that crafters day one have. If Intrepid can manage it. 6. It being hard to aquire gear can be enough of a sink: I honestly don't think so. It just makes it take longer to flood the market. There is not one solution, and I think you guys are right in saying it can be a combination of small solutions. We will see as things get released, but I'm definitely worried about it with the info we currently have. I was replying to the other dude. i mentioned you because you agreed with one of the things he said xd edit: also, to number 6 I didn't say hard to acquire ger makes it a sink. i said if gear is hard to acquire, new gear will come out when most people finish gearing up. the new gear will make the older gear obsolete. that's the sink.
Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard.
Texas wrote: » Can anyone name a single MMO where items actually deflated in value? Generally, a few months after launch all low-level things are 3-4x more expensive for a new player joining late. There are now alts and crafting powerlevelers willing to throw around currency impossible for a new player to have. The stuff doesn't get cheaper.
Depraved wrote: » what ive noticed is the first few items of each type are super expensive, then after a few days, they go down. then after a while, they go down even more and only the stuff that are new or with perfect stats or most desirable and hard to get are expensive.
