Current Concerns with Player Only Economy

Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven.

What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear.

My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard.

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Dygz

Zipp_Adoudel wrote: »

I know that if an appropriate gear sink does not exist, then it will fail

That's your opinion. If it were a valid opinion, experienced game devs would know that, too.
And they would be sure to include it if they don't want their game to fail.

Zipp_Adoudel wrote: »

I will not like the game.

OK.
Ashes is not made for everyone.

Texas

[

Diamaht wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

Can anyone name a single MMO where items actually deflated in value? Generally, a few months after launch all low-level things are 3-4x more expensive for a new player joining late. There are now alts and crafting powerlevelers willing to throw around currency impossible for a new player to have. The stuff doesn't get cheaper.

Eve Online. The items don't excessively inflate or deflate. They stay steady over time, the ups and downs occur with resource price changes or competing items that use the same resources becoming more or less in demand. Because items leave the economy, things don't become flooded and thus maintain a natural value.

So there's normal price fluctuations, that's not deflation.

Huge inflation tends to happen in games like WoW that only take two weeks to level and tend to give away all the gear a player needs as they level. The only people who care about lower tier gear are people who transmog, and they have cash so prices go up.

I'm confused because you just said this causes huge deflation. Also, it has nothing to do with transmog. Go play classic Wow or any game without transmog, the same thing happens.

----

I think you don't really understand why low-level crafting is unprofitable. It's unprofitable because players are willing to lose currency in order to gain crafting XP. It's unprofitable in Wow, it was unprofitable in probably the most player-driven economy ever in SWG. It was unprofitable the last time I played Albion Online. If the playerbase thinks XP is worth more than currency, it will be unprofitable.

I'm not sure how that breaks down in EVE, I've never played it, but have heard it described as more of a space trader simulation than RPG. Gold might be worth more than XP in that type of game.

Laetitian

Texas wrote: »

Can anyone name a single MMO where items actually deflated in value? Generally, a few months after launch all low-level things are 3-4x more expensive for a new player joining late. There are now alts and crafting powerlevelers willing to throw around currency impossible for a new player to have. The stuff doesn't get cheaper.

"There are now alts and crafting powerlevelers willing to throw around currency impossible for a new player to have."
There are also more items around, for fewer people to use, with each iteration. Unless you specifically only count the absolute top-of-the-line of low-level gear released in the most recent game update, or the abslute peak item that has ever been crafted. But no one needs those to level up.

Also, the alts you're talking about don't make the economy go around anyway, because they only trade with each other. The prices with players that aren't involved in closed cycles are the relevant parts of the global economy.

Which leaves us with max level. Where it absolutely does matter when the economy is full of existing high-tier items.

I'm not even in the "item depletion is necessary" camp, but with arguments like yours, I'm considering switching.

Diamaht

Texas wrote: »

[

Diamaht wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

Can anyone name a single MMO where items actually deflated in value? Generally, a few months after launch all low-level things are 3-4x more expensive for a new player joining late. There are now alts and crafting powerlevelers willing to throw around currency impossible for a new player to have. The stuff doesn't get cheaper.

Eve Online. The items don't excessively inflate or deflate. They stay steady over time, the ups and downs occur with resource price changes or competing items that use the same resources becoming more or less in demand. Because items leave the economy, things don't become flooded and thus maintain a natural value.

So there's normal price fluctuations, that's not deflation.

Huge inflation tends to happen in games like WoW that only take two weeks to level and tend to give away all the gear a player needs as they level. The only people who care about lower tier gear are people who transmog, and they have cash so prices go up.

I'm confused because you just said this causes huge deflation. Also, it has nothing to do with transmog. Go play classic Wow or any game without transmog, the same thing happens.

----

I think you don't really understand why low-level crafting is unprofitable. It's unprofitable because players are willing to lose currency in order to gain crafting XP. It's unprofitable in Wow, it was unprofitable in probably the most player-driven economy ever in SWG. It was unprofitable the last time I played Albion Online. If the playerbase thinks XP is worth more than currency, it will be unprofitable.

I'm not sure how that breaks down in EVE, I've never played it, but have heard it described as more of a space trader simulation than RPG. Gold might be worth more than XP in that type of game.

I never said anything about deflation in WoW.

And low level gear doesn't really exist in SWG. Gear there is about experimentation.
The top class resources and highly experimented items flooded the market. There are no levels, its just skill grind. One thing SWG and WoW had in common was max lvl in under two weeks. The gear has no value (except to other crafters).

Depends on what you are talking about in SWG, pre NGE and post NGE are two separate conversations. Either way you don't need levels to wear the gear, just basic certification.

Either way, high level or low level we need sinks.

Zipp_Adoudel

Texas wrote: »

[

Diamaht wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

Can anyone name a single MMO where items actually deflated in value? Generally, a few months after launch all low-level things are 3-4x more expensive for a new player joining late. There are now alts and crafting powerlevelers willing to throw around currency impossible for a new player to have. The stuff doesn't get cheaper.

Eve Online. The items don't excessively inflate or deflate. They stay steady over time, the ups and downs occur with resource price changes or competing items that use the same resources becoming more or less in demand. Because items leave the economy, things don't become flooded and thus maintain a natural value.

So there's normal price fluctuations, that's not deflation.

Huge inflation tends to happen in games like WoW that only take two weeks to level and tend to give away all the gear a player needs as they level. The only people who care about lower tier gear are people who transmog, and they have cash so prices go up.

I'm confused because you just said this causes huge deflation. Also, it has nothing to do with transmog. Go play classic Wow or any game without transmog, the same thing happens.

----

I think you don't really understand why low-level crafting is unprofitable. It's unprofitable because players are willing to lose currency in order to gain crafting XP. It's unprofitable in Wow, it was unprofitable in probably the most player-driven economy ever in SWG. It was unprofitable the last time I played Albion Online. If the playerbase thinks XP is worth more than currency, it will be unprofitable.

I'm not sure how that breaks down in EVE, I've never played it, but have heard it described as more of a space trader simulation than RPG. Gold might be worth more than XP in that type of game.

SWG isnt the most player-driven economy. Eve Online has that one. Its been studied and is used as an example of a real world economy.

As for Albion, It was always profitable, but you had to use the time-specalized resource. The one that you only go so much and gave you back materials.

If you want a game that is going to be around for a while, you need people. The more people that can find value in playing, the more content that exists. WoW is out there and if you dont want to lose gear play that. It isnt going anywhere. If Eve devs didnt suck the fun out of the game I would still be there. If you want a game that is fun for two years and then dies, I am all for no gear sink. I am all for lets rush max level and not worry about the economy. People will get bored as content gets stale. There are only so many expansions people can suffer where they have to get a new "Max-level" item because all of their previous gear has been invalidated.

Depraved

Zipp_Adoudel wrote: »

WoW is out there and if you dont want to lose gear play that. It isnt going anywhere.

and albion, mortal online and eve are out there. if you want to lose gear play that. they arent going anywhere.

Swifty00

There is no problem with the concept of a player built economy, the problem is that MMO designers in the past made MMO games like single player games and didn't model them on real supply/demand economies.

The simple way in which you make an economy work is that you still make end game upgrades and gear include a certain proportion of earlier components.

So to make a level 1 sword you need 100 copper ore.
To make a level 2 sword you need 100 copper ore + 50 Iron ore.
To make a level 3 sword you need 100 copper ore + 50 Iron ore + 25 mithril, and so on.

Demand for the earlier material remans just as high as it was when everyone started, particularly if repairs require materials. This isn't a particularly difficult problem to solve if you understand economics.

The more important thing (and what I am more worried about) is to not make the game like work where people are gathering ore to pay their "rent", when they would rather be out playing the game. So this is where freehold mines/farms etc. will come in, passively producing ore, auto-gathering it and refining it.

If the designers are smart they will include a global "Yield" variable that allows them to arbitrarily modify production of ore from the mines to avoid a glut or a scarcity of lower level materials.

To avoid the freeholds getting too rich the tax/maintenance on the freehold essentially cancels out most of the profit. And this tax is also tied to the yield variable.

Diamaht

Swifty00 wrote: »

There is no problem with the concept of a player built economy, the problem is that MMO designers in the past made MMO games like single player games and didn't model them on real supply/demand economies.

The simple way in which you make an economy work is that you still make end game upgrades and gear include a certain proportion of earlier components.

So to make a level 1 sword you need 100 copper ore.
To make a level 2 sword you need 100 copper ore + 50 Iron ore.
To make a level 3 sword you need 100 copper ore + 50 Iron ore + 25 mithril, and so on.

Demand for the earlier material remans just as high as it was when everyone started, particularly if repairs require materials. This isn't a particularly difficult problem to solve if you understand economics.

The more important thing (and what I am more worried about) is to not make the game like work where people are gathering ore to pay their "rent", when they would rather be out playing the game. So this is where freehold mines/farms etc. will come in, passively producing ore, auto-gathering it and refining it.

If the designers are smart they will include a global "Yield" variable that allows them to arbitrarily modify production of ore from the mines to avoid a glut or a scarcity of lower level materials.

To avoid the freeholds getting too rich the tax/maintenance on the freehold essentially cancels out most of the profit. And this tax is also tied to the yield variable.

I agree with this 100 percent on the material usage part of you point. However that helps mitigate the cost and supply of materials, but it doesn't address the issue of the items themselves. It's whole point I'm trying to make. (Edit: although I wouldn't lean too much into the "auto" side of gathering/crafting. Too much auto is a great way to invalidate gatherers)

From the wiki:
"Specific and necessary crafting materials for higher tier items can only be obtained through the deconstruction of lower-tier items. This is designed to keep lower tier crafted gear relevant through progression and across expansions."

This is fantastic. If this is really leaned into, along with the enchantment mechanic, then it can create the sinks you need for a healthy economy. And it does it without people losing items except by choice.

Also from the wiki:
"Gear is acquired from a number of different sources, such as quests, drops, crafting, legendary bosses, guild-oriented tasks, favor, and unique currencies"

This could be a concern. It's great that you have a variety of ways to get gear for your characters, however if those items never leave because the game gives out more than it consumes through crafting and enchanting then you have a problem.

I think a couple things need to happen:
1) All gear, including non crafted, has to be destructible.
2) Non crafted gear needs to have unique resources that encourages people to destroy it instead of passing it down.
3) Crafted gear needs to provide resources or components not given out by non crafted, so it stays relevant. Or you could even just require the entire item as a "base".

We don't necessarily have to have gear destruction though wear and tear, but the game has to be set up to heavily incentivize getting rid of old gear in a variety of ways that are not adding it to the existing market.

If you don't do this, then pricing will be permanently distorted after a year or two, and gear/weapon crafters that start two years after launch have no incentive or ability to participate in the market until they reach max level. This devalues the leveling process for them, which goes against what Intrepid says they are trying to do with the leveling experience.

Texas

Diamaht wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

[

Diamaht wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

Can anyone name a single MMO where items actually deflated in value? Generally, a few months after launch all low-level things are 3-4x more expensive for a new player joining late. There are now alts and crafting powerlevelers willing to throw around currency impossible for a new player to have. The stuff doesn't get cheaper.

Eve Online. The items don't excessively inflate or deflate. They stay steady over time, the ups and downs occur with resource price changes or competing items that use the same resources becoming more or less in demand. Because items leave the economy, things don't become flooded and thus maintain a natural value.

So there's normal price fluctuations, that's not deflation.

Huge inflation tends to happen in games like WoW that only take two weeks to level and tend to give away all the gear a player needs as they level. The only people who care about lower tier gear are people who transmog, and they have cash so prices go up.

I'm confused because you just said this causes huge deflation. Also, it has nothing to do with transmog. Go play classic Wow or any game without transmog, the same thing happens.

----

I think you don't really understand why low-level crafting is unprofitable. It's unprofitable because players are willing to lose currency in order to gain crafting XP. It's unprofitable in Wow, it was unprofitable in probably the most player-driven economy ever in SWG. It was unprofitable the last time I played Albion Online. If the playerbase thinks XP is worth more than currency, it will be unprofitable.

I'm not sure how that breaks down in EVE, I've never played it, but have heard it described as more of a space trader simulation than RPG. Gold might be worth more than XP in that type of game.

I never said anything about deflation in WoW.

And low level gear doesn't really exist in SWG. Gear there is about experimentation.
The top class resources and highly experimented items flooded the market. There are no levels, its just skill grind. One thing SWG and WoW had in common was max lvl in under two weeks. The gear has no value (except to other crafters).

Depends on what you are talking about in SWG, pre NGE and post NGE are two separate conversations. Either way you don't need levels to wear the gear, just basic certification.

Either way, high level or low level we need sinks.

The crafting term was Efficacy in SWG, if I remember the exact word correctly, because gear didn't have levels. A low-level weaponsmith could make a Scout Blaster. However, only a high-level crafter with high-efficacy materials produced high-efficacy Scout Blasters. As ludicrous as Master Weaponsmithing could be you had to pump out like a million survey gears to level because low efficacy Scout Blasters were a giant waste of resources (so were survey gears, but it was less of an investment made for that sweet sweet Weaponsmithing XP).

For those not following, it's essentially like making white vs purple Scout Blasters.

Diamaht

Texas wrote: »

Diamaht wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

[

Diamaht wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

Can anyone name a single MMO where items actually deflated in value? Generally, a few months after launch all low-level things are 3-4x more expensive for a new player joining late. There are now alts and crafting powerlevelers willing to throw around currency impossible for a new player to have. The stuff doesn't get cheaper.

Eve Online. The items don't excessively inflate or deflate. They stay steady over time, the ups and downs occur with resource price changes or competing items that use the same resources becoming more or less in demand. Because items leave the economy, things don't become flooded and thus maintain a natural value.

So there's normal price fluctuations, that's not deflation.

Huge inflation tends to happen in games like WoW that only take two weeks to level and tend to give away all the gear a player needs as they level. The only people who care about lower tier gear are people who transmog, and they have cash so prices go up.

I'm confused because you just said this causes huge deflation. Also, it has nothing to do with transmog. Go play classic Wow or any game without transmog, the same thing happens.

----

I think you don't really understand why low-level crafting is unprofitable. It's unprofitable because players are willing to lose currency in order to gain crafting XP. It's unprofitable in Wow, it was unprofitable in probably the most player-driven economy ever in SWG. It was unprofitable the last time I played Albion Online. If the playerbase thinks XP is worth more than currency, it will be unprofitable.

I'm not sure how that breaks down in EVE, I've never played it, but have heard it described as more of a space trader simulation than RPG. Gold might be worth more than XP in that type of game.

I never said anything about deflation in WoW.

And low level gear doesn't really exist in SWG. Gear there is about experimentation.
The top class resources and highly experimented items flooded the market. There are no levels, its just skill grind. One thing SWG and WoW had in common was max lvl in under two weeks. The gear has no value (except to other crafters).

Depends on what you are talking about in SWG, pre NGE and post NGE are two separate conversations. Either way you don't need levels to wear the gear, just basic certification.

Either way, high level or low level we need sinks.

The crafting term was Efficacy in SWG, if I remember the exact word correctly, because gear didn't have levels. A low-level weaponsmith could make a Scout Blaster. However, only a high-level crafter with high-efficacy materials produced high-efficacy Scout Blasters. As ludicrous as Master Weaponsmithing could be you had to pump out like a million survey gears to level because low efficacy Scout Blasters were a giant waste of resources (so were survey gears, but it was less of an investment made for that sweet sweet Weaponsmithing XP).

For those not following, it's essentially like making white vs purple Scout Blasters.

Yes, level didn't matter, you had to be certified to use gear based on your class. Quality of materials determined what your item was capable of. What is the point you are trying to make?

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