Buffs and Debuffs

Greetings, fellow players,

I recently came across a clip from Narc discussing buffs and debuffs in games, particularly drawing parallels to Guild Wars 2. Watching it got me thinking about how these mechanics might play out in Ashes of Creation.

Link to Narc's Thoughts on Buffs and Debuffs

Considering the direction Ashes of Creation is taking, what are your thoughts on the buffs and debuffs system?

As someone who played Guild Wars 2 a long time ago and doesn't remember how the buff and debuff mechanics worked, I'm just curious about the discussion. Do you anticipate Ashes of Creation following similar patterns to other MMORPGs like Guild Wars 2 and Elder Scrolls Online in terms of buffs and debuffs, or do you think Intrepid Studios should explore different mechanics altogether?

Looking forward to your thoughts,
Faimith

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Ludullu

I'd prefer if debuffs had a base effect (such as "burn", "stagger", etc) and then all the different classes had their own special interactions with that base effect.

As for buffs. I come from L2 where buffs ruled all, and I do like that kinda of design, but I just hope that the application of those buffs is more interesting and complex than L2's.

Texas

It definitely takes away from class identity. It appears the class debuffs will synergize better in AoC, though. Like a Cleric applies Burning, then a Mage turns it into Conflagurate. They showed this a little bit in the [Cleric?] showcase with the Cleric using chains to Stagger then the Tank Tripping the staggered enemies.

It was rwally bad in GW2. It nerfed debuff gameplay in group scenarios. There were classes that applied Burning, but all it did was make the debuff longer, so you lost a lot of damage if there was another player that applied Burning.

Bleeding stacked, so it was better but I still think it capped out at some point in really large groups.

Laetitian

Hated it in ESO. It cuts so deep into the class identity.
Agree with every word from that section of the linked video. Unique buffs are so important.

It's an obvious attempt at making balancing changes easy to control, but that's a terribly lazy motivation for designing one of the most essential parts of the game that has the potential of constituting the bulk of the character of the game's combat and classes. I'd rather have no balance than balance through bland abilities.

I have at least one complete vivid memory associated with each and every unique debuff of the 6 classes in Regnum that was cast on me or my allies. Because they all completely changed the dynamics of the fight. They made you remember that you were fighting a Hunter/Marksman/Knight/Barbarian/Warlock/Conjurer(=Healer). And want to reconsider your skills to be better prepared for the next time you'd run into that class.
Same for my or my allies' buffs.

I have 0 memories of ever having a single emotion about which minor or major debuff an enemy cast on me in ESO.

arkileo

Texas wrote: »

It definitely takes away from class identity. It appears the class debuffs will synergize better in AoC, though. Like a Cleric applies Burning, then a Mage turns it into Conflagurate. They showed this a little bit in the [Cleric?] showcase with the Cleric using chains to Stagger then the Tank Tripping the staggered enemies.

It was rwally bad in GW2. It nerfed debuff gameplay in group scenarios. There were classes that applied Burning, but all it did was make the debuff longer, so you lost a lot of damage if there was another player that applied Burning.

Bleeding stacked, so it was better but I still think it capped out at some point in really large groups.

It sounds like Burning in AoC is like you describe for GW2, unfortunately.

Burning: Deals fire damage every second. Lasts 8 seconds or up to 24 seconds based on total applied burn.

So it sounds like subsequent applications only extend it up to 24 seconds, and then who knows what happens to any beyond that, or how the damage is calculated. Like is the dps based on the stats of the person who originally applied it? So if a person with lower stats applies it then you're extending a lower damage burn?

I'm reminded of the debuff limit in classic WoW, where a given enemy could only have a certain number of debuffs on them at a time. This lead to the debuffs considered less good being blacklisted for raids, which in turn made certain specs unplayable in raids because they relied on blacklisted debuffs. While not quite the same, I wonder if a similar effect could happen here where less geared players are "forbidden" by raid leaders from applying certain debuffs because someone else can apply the debuff better, thereby locking the lesser geared player out of certain builds. MMO players will never ignore the chance to min-max the fun out of the game. I sincerely hope the design doesn't facilitate that.

What would actually be kind of interesting is if the total burn took the damage value of the highest applier. So you could have someone built for big burns and conflagrations and others for applying burns as fast as possible. This would actually give lesser geared players better legs to stand on.

Voeltz

The generic buffs from Guild Wars 2 are very limiting and kill class identity. Better to have more unique buffs/debuffs to individual classes or per ability. They can still have some that can be used across multiple classes, just not all of them and even so things like burning should stack in intensity AND duration within reason. So as an example lets say burning is available to Cleric/Mage and Bleed is available to Fighter/Rogue/Ranger. Then you can have cleanses for the Support classes which clears the entire stack of 1 debuff as a counterplay option.

Veeshan

Dots shouldnt overide eachother from other players like2 players bleed the same target one does 100 dpg other 200 dps.

The 200 dps shouldnt overide the 100 dps one it should apply so they now take 300 dps when they both get applied for example

if the same type of dots overide eachother you have the issue where you dont want muiltipul classes that specilise it dots since they cannabalise the dps of eachother

Laetitian

Veeshan wrote: »

Dots shouldnt overide eachother from other players like2 players bleed the same target one does 100 dpg other 200 dps.

The 200 dps shouldnt overide the 100 dps one it should apply so they now take 300 dps when they both get applied for example

if the same type of dots overide eachother you have the issue where you dont want muiltipul classes that specilise it dots since they cannabalise the dps of eachother

I think all of that is fine. The same problem can exist with unique debuffs if multiple people from the same class show up.
That's the tradeoff you make for choosing that type of DOT; not being able to stack with yourself or others.
It usually gets balanced by making the stacking deal less damage before it's stacked up and more punished by being dispelled regularly, but more powerful when left unmanaged, and more effective when multiple players use it.
Whereas the non-stacking DOT is more reliable but doesn't escalate as much, and it's less effective when multiple players have it.
Ideally there would be a third distinction between stacking buffs that can only be applied by one player and get overridden when another player uses them, so you have to be very careful with them in group settings, and a regular type that stacks from all enemies, but has a lower effectiveness ceiling.

The main reason unique debuffs are needed is simply that unique effects allow for more powerful effects.
I want to know a Ranger showed up because one of the tanks has a "can't receive positive effects for 10-40 seconds" debuff on them.
Let the Cleric have a "Non-damaging debuffs" protection spell for 50+ seconds to allow them to select one target to safeguard.

When all classes get the same core buff and debuff pool, everything just becomes types of damage, healing, soft CC and hard CC. It's so boring. *That's* really the main problem that needs to be focused on here.

Texas

arkileo wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

It definitely takes away from class identity. It appears the class debuffs will synergize better in AoC, though. Like a Cleric applies Burning, then a Mage turns it into Conflagurate. They showed this a little bit in the [Cleric?] showcase with the Cleric using chains to Stagger then the Tank Tripping the staggered enemies.

It was rwally bad in GW2. It nerfed debuff gameplay in group scenarios. There were classes that applied Burning, but all it did was make the debuff longer, so you lost a lot of damage if there was another player that applied Burning.

Bleeding stacked, so it was better but I still think it capped out at some point in really large groups.

It sounds like Burning in AoC is like you describe for GW2, unfortunately.

Burning: Deals fire damage every second. Lasts 8 seconds or up to 24 seconds based on total applied burn.

So it sounds like subsequent applications only extend it up to 24 seconds, and then who knows what happens to any beyond that, or how the damage is calculated. Like is the dps based on the stats of the person who originally applied it? So if a person with lower stats applies it then you're extending a lower damage burn?

I'm reminded of the debuff limit in classic WoW, where a given enemy could only have a certain number of debuffs on them at a time. This lead to the debuffs considered less good being blacklisted for raids, which in turn made certain specs unplayable in raids because they relied on blacklisted debuffs. While not quite the same, I wonder if a similar effect could happen here where less geared players are "forbidden" by raid leaders from applying certain debuffs because someone else can apply the debuff better, thereby locking the lesser geared player out of certain builds. MMO players will never ignore the chance to min-max the fun out of the game. I sincerely hope the design doesn't facilitate that.

What would actually be kind of interesting is if the total burn took the damage value of the highest applier. So you could have someone built for big burns and conflagrations and others for applying burns as fast as possible. This would actually give lesser geared players better legs to stand on.

It looks like GW2 at some point updated their Burning and Poison to stack in intensity - i.e. match how the Bleeding works. Where stacks increase damage instead of duration, so that's at least something.
But when I played, like in classic WoW, it made some playstyles useless. I had a Necromancer alt who I was planning to be heavily DoT-centric and in group content realized how the mechanics worked and how unplayable it was vs my solo experience up to then.

I think to some extent, the way Intrepid want debuffs to work as synergies between classes, they need to be generic to some extent. Whether it feels better or not in the end I won't know until I play.

Then, again, at times in WoW rogues, warriors, druids all had class synergies with Bleed effects and the bleeds were still all unique. And when the debuffs were overridden like with Trauma/Mangle. The Feral Druid was actually better off having a Trauma Warrior in party, so it was still considered a positive synergy.

Githal

If they are aiming the groups to be 8 man consisted of 1 of each class - Then it will make sense for each class to have unique buffs/debuffs.

And if they aiming to make a lot of different group options viable - Then it will make sense the buffs to not be that impactful so even missing some buff wont be big deal, and options for class to spec to synergize with different other classes, so even missing some class you can just spec to assist different one as a bard.

Laetitian

And if they aiming to make a lot of different group options viable - Then it will make sense the buffs to not be that impactful so even missing some buff wont be big deal

That's not how that works; or at least that disadvantage can be completely counteracted by good game design.
Buffs can be impactful and still not be required because every other class's unique abilities are *also* impactful, even if one or two of them are redundant in the party. In PvP this is obviously the case. For PvE, it's fine if there are some encounters where it's highly advantageous to have a few particular classes present, as long as most encounters give every class a chance to shine.

Impactful =/= mandatory, if everything else is also impactful in its own way. It just changes how the party plays in order to put everyone's strength to its best use.

Voeltz

Veeshan wrote: »

Dots shouldnt overide eachother from other players like2 players bleed the same target one does 100 dpg other 200 dps.

The 200 dps shouldnt overide the 100 dps one it should apply so they now take 300 dps when they both get applied for example

if the same type of dots overide eachother you have the issue where you dont want muiltipul classes that specilise it dots since they cannabalise the dps of eachother

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. When you have debuffs like GW2 it makes DOT builds worthless. So in order to make them viable you either need more unique debuffs, stacking or both. Ashes will have large battles with hundreds of players, so it is necessary if they want a large variety of relevant builds. I'd like it to be possible/viable to run DOT heavy comps with the same classes or multiple in groups just like it is with direct damage ones.

Faimith

First off, I want to thank everyone for their input on this topic—it's been very interesting to read all the perspectives.

arkileo wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

..... can apply the debuff better, thereby locking the lesser geared player out of certain builds. MMO players will never ignore the chance to min-max the fun out of the game. I sincerely hope the design doesn't facilitate that.

What would actually be kind of interesting is if the total burn took the damage value of the highest applier. So you could have someone built for big burns and conflagrations and others for applying burns as fast as possible. This would actually give lesser geared players better legs to stand on.

I agree with Arkileo that the current debuff system could lead to players with lesser gear being excluded from raids, which is a concern. It would be ideal if we could stack debuffs as Veeshan and Laetitian suggested.

Additionally, I think it would be really cool if each class had a unique buff or debuff that could evolve when combined with others. For instance, if one Cleric casts a spell causing Debuff X, and then a second Cleric casts the same spell on the same target, it transforms into a stronger Debuff Y. Alternatively, if another class uses Debuff Z on a target already affected by Debuff X, it could evolve into Debuff A.

This would enhance group combat dynamics and make buffs and debuffs more interesting and strategic.

Xeeg

NiKr wrote: »

I'd prefer if debuffs had a base effect (such as "burn", "stagger", etc) and then all the different classes had their own special interactions with that base effect.

As for buffs. I come from L2 where buffs ruled all, and I do like that kinda of design, but I just hope that the application of those buffs is more interesting and complex than L2's.

This make sense to me. There could be a "major" category of debuffs (burn, stagger, etc.) which classes combo off of, and then a "minor" category of buffs/debuffs which are class specific and still important.

I really like in WoW how you could have 4 paladins and each could do a separate aura, but there were only 2 blessings such that 2 paladins were ideal, but more still added some minor value.

ArnasPanika

@Faimith

90% of AoC bosses from level 10 to 50 will be in open world and will be killed on spawn and heavily contested by biggest sides of the server, no one will leave some free loot for tourists. So if you are in one of these top 2 or 3 (depends on the server) alliances then you don't have to worry about debuffs and similar things, you won't be excluded. Bosses won't be difficult, the difficulty will come in terms of pvp before and during the boss encounter. And if after few months of the server there will be less demand for low level bosses and you will find one wondering around and you will start making a group most probably you will take any healer, tank and dd's because if you spend too much time others will show up and kill that boss even before your group will be ready. Ofc, you could try to pvp them during the fight and retake the boss.

ExiledByrd

Unique class buffs are important to me. I played a shaman in WoW and it felt good to press the bloodlust/heroism button when the raid leader called for it. It made me feel like I was making an impact to the raid more than just DPS numbers. Now so many different people can do the same thing, it feels like I lost something. I think every class should have a defining buff or debuff that groups will miss if they don't have.

I am not a huge fan of buffs like 42 more stamina for 1 hour, or +5% damage for 20 minutes etc. I would rather my support be more active.

nanfoodle

Laetitian wrote: »

Hated it in ESO. It cuts so deep into the class identity.
Agree with every word from that section of the linked video. Unique buffs are so important.

It's an obvious attempt at making balancing changes easy to control, but that's a terribly lazy motivation for designing one of the most essential parts of the game that has the potential of constituting the bulk of the character of the game's combat and classes. I'd rather have no balance than balance through bland abilities.

I have at least one complete vivid memory associated with each and every unique debuff of the 6 classes in Regnum that was cast on me or my allies. Because they all completely changed the dynamics of the fight. They made you remember that you were fighting a Hunter/Marksman/Knight/Barbarian/Warlock/Conjurer(=Healer). And want to reconsider your skills to be better prepared for the next time you'd run into that class.
Same for my or my allies' buffs.

I have 0 memories of ever having a single emotion about which minor or major debuff an enemy cast on me in ESO.

This was the same in EQ1. Making a team was almost like deck building. Class sinergizes. I hope that's how the buff / debuffs work here.

Faimith

ArnasPanika wrote: »

@Faimith

90% of AoC bosses from level 10 to 50 will be in open world and will be killed on spawn and heavily contested by biggest sides of the server, no one will leave some free loot for tourists. So if you are in one of these top 2 or 3 (depends on the server) alliances then you don't have to worry about debuffs and similar things, you won't be excluded. Bosses won't be difficult, the difficulty will come in terms of pvp before and during the boss encounter. And if after few months of the server there will be less demand for low level bosses and you will find one wondering around and you will start making a group most probably you will take any healer, tank and dd's because if you spend too much time others will show up and kill that boss even before your group will be ready. Ofc, you could try to pvp them during the fight and retake the boss.

ArnasPanika, I see your point about the contested nature of open-world bosses and the focus on PvP. However, I believe that buffs and debuffs still play a crucial role, especially in structured group encounters and harder PvE content. It's still PvX.

The server is huge and not every alliance will be able to cover every world event and boss. Having an effective debuff system can make a significant difference. This ensures that skill and a well-coordinated group matter more than just sheer numbers.

tautau

@Faimith I agree with your expectations regarding the amount of contestation of bosses. While bosses will be desired targets without a doubt, AmasPanika's comments are based only upon her expectations, not based on any experience or facts about AoC. It is a good example of someone expecting what they experienced in other games to happen again.

Since AoC has significant roots in L2, which I played extensively, I wouldn't be surprised if the boss availability was somewhat similar to that game's. The major bosses were hotly contested but many other bosses roamed to be found. Additionally, the world of AoC is going to be vastly larger than any which we have experienced before, potentially providing many more bosses to hunt. Add to that the lack of fast travel and the aggregation of large guilds at major bosses would mean that most of the world would be open pickings for the rest of the players.

Needless to say, in that last paragraph I am indulging in exactly what I criticized AmasPanika about, basing my expectations on my own experiences.

But I think there will be plenty of bosses to be hunted.

Depraved

Faimith wrote: »

ArnasPanika wrote: »

@Faimith

90% of AoC bosses from level 10 to 50 will be in open world and will be killed on spawn and heavily contested by biggest sides of the server, no one will leave some free loot for tourists. So if you are in one of these top 2 or 3 (depends on the server) alliances then you don't have to worry about debuffs and similar things, you won't be excluded. Bosses won't be difficult, the difficulty will come in terms of pvp before and during the boss encounter. And if after few months of the server there will be less demand for low level bosses and you will find one wondering around and you will start making a group most probably you will take any healer, tank and dd's because if you spend too much time others will show up and kill that boss even before your group will be ready. Ofc, you could try to pvp them during the fight and retake the boss.

ArnasPanika, I see your point about the contested nature of open-world bosses and the focus on PvP. However, I believe that buffs and debuffs still play a crucial role, especially in structured group encounters and harder PvE content. It's still PvX.

The server is huge and not every alliance will be able to cover every world event and boss. Having an effective debuff system can make a significant difference. This ensures that skill and a well-coordinated group matter more than just sheer numbers.

but you can have numbers that are coordinated and skilled. and just because you have a small group, doesn't mean you are coordinated or skilled.

Finov

I really don't like the debuff system in pvp GW2. The developers just added dots damage to each skill. Thus, you take weapons and skills that best throw negative effects and you are in a big advantage compared to power build, which deals direct damage. That's why everyone is playing condition build.

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