Open World Raid Boss Respawn Timers

Can there be "raid windows" instead of a pure random respawn for open world raid bosses? It makes it easier for PvE enjoyers to have a set block of time where they can plan to do some content in. Even if it is a "no spawn day" there still should be some type of sub-boss with similar mechanics as the raid boss for a smaller advance group of PvE enjoyers to participate in. Then if they stumble upon a raid boss they can alert their guild/alliance etc.

That seems like a more natural way than sending an "alt-scout" to the spawn location to keep eyes on an important objective. It also gives PvE enjoyers some decent content during breakout play.

I'm a PvP/PvX enjoyer who is worried about losing our PvE gamers because the game doesnt give them meaningful play loops. So this is one solution I brainstormed. Let's discuss.

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iccer

tautau wrote: »

@Veeshan Had the best idea in the thread, that the spawn of bosses should have, as a part of their timing, a relationship to the amount of player activity in an area.

If no one hunts in a region, or mines, or farms etc. then the bosses in that area can be very slow in spawning. If a different area has a lot of player activity, that would speed up the spawn. This would be another example of the players impacting the world and what happens in it.

Kill a lot of goblins and the Goblin Godking starts wandering the goblin lands. Start a lot of active farming freeholds and the Dire Wolf pack spawns to feed on the sheep. Keep killing the undead in the graveyard and the LichKing shows up to settle the score.....

YES!

And I'd expand on that, that you need to actually trigger and complete certain events in order for the boss to spawn.

Texas

Noaani wrote: »

Also, open world bosses are not the content that PvE players plan around - the nature of open world bosses makes that inherently impossible. If the idea is to attract PvE players that would be interested in these open world bosses, you give them content they can plan around (instanced content), and then you add these open world bosses in on top of that.

Most would not consider OW bosses pve content. In games with "pvp stats" you would wear pvp gear to go do the boss.

Orgagriffith

What content does a PvE player plan around then? Or are they just left to fend in a PvP world? this is my concern.
In the same way that pvp was an afterthought in the vast majority of past mmos, I really dont want satisfying pve content to be an afterthought, or only as a service to pvp loops.

I do want a true PvX game. I think the "mob farm influencing boss spawns" is the right solution, as many of yall discussed. What I can't visualize, and what my primary concern, is what are the meaningful PvE loops in AoC? I thought maybe the boss timer was a solution, but i think yall hit the right points for that

Noaani

Texas wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Also, open world bosses are not the content that PvE players plan around - the nature of open world bosses makes that inherently impossible. If the idea is to attract PvE players that would be interested in these open world bosses, you give them content they can plan around (instanced content), and then you add these open world bosses in on top of that.

Most would not consider OW bosses pve content. In games with "pvp stats" you would wear pvp gear to go do the boss.

Yeah, but keep in mind that on these forums, some people here consider mining ore and running around trees to be PvE content, while some people consider buying and selling on the marketplace to be PvP content.

People have really weird opinions of what makes PvP and what makes PvE. If I made the comment that open world bosses were PvP content, this thread would be 5 pages long already.

Veeshan

Texas wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Also, open world bosses are not the content that PvE players plan around - the nature of open world bosses makes that inherently impossible. If the idea is to attract PvE players that would be interested in these open world bosses, you give them content they can plan around (instanced content), and then you add these open world bosses in on top of that.

Most would not consider OW bosses pve content. In games with "pvp stats" you would wear pvp gear to go do the boss.

Your making the assumption that pvp and pve gear isnt one in the same for ashes.
If they do things properaly u wont need stats like resilience that you see in WoW, the game is designed with both pve and pvp in mind compared to more PvE orientated game where they tack on PvP poorly after everything else.
Considering almost all the content is openworld most of the bosses will fall under Open world bosses

Texas

That's not the point I'm making. For OW bosses, the PvP is the greater threat, wearing PvP gear even in primarily PvE games is an acknowledgement of that fact. The boss is a PvP reward for winning a PvP battle. It's not PvE content.

Noaani

Texas wrote: »

That's not the point I'm making. For OW bosses, the PvP is the greater threat, wearing PvP gear even in primarily PvE games is an acknowledgement of that fact. The boss is a PvP reward for winning a PvP battle. It's not PvE content.

This is kind of what I was talking about above. It's why I didn't put a label on it as being PvP or PvE content - but simply left it as not content primary PvE players would plan around.

iccer

The only PvE content in a game like this would be instanced content, where you don't have a chance to encounter PvP.

This is due to how the game is designed, and how the world is designed. You don't have dedicated PvP areas, because PvP can happen anywhere, which in turn means there are no dedicated PvE areas. There is always a risk of PvP.

Personally, I dislike that kind of a system, but oh well, Ashes isn't going to be a perfect game, suited for everyone, where everyone will like everything about it. It's still a better system than what most other MMOs have.

I'd ideally want something similar to Archeage's war/peace system, where zones would cycle between different states. At the same time, I dislike pure PvE games, or games where PvP is an afterthought. Hell, I even dislike how it's done in WoW, GW2, etc.)

Instanced dungeons and raids, will basically be the only pure PvE content in this game (if we get those).

Everything else is pretty much PvP.

World bosses = primarily a PvP event, whoever wins gets to kill the boss or rather you kill the boss and defend at the same time.
Open-world dungeons = PvX event, you have to clear the dungeon, but also be wary that there is possibility for PvP
Caravans = risk of PvP (it's not PvE)
Gathering = risk of PvP (it's not PvE)

Veeshan

iccer wrote: »

Instanced dungeons and raids, will basically be the only pure PvE content in this game (if we get those).

Everything else is pretty much PvP.
World bosses = primarily a PvP event, whoever wins gets to kill the boss or rather you kill the boss and defend at the same time.

Open-world dungeons = PvX event, you have to clear the dungeon, but also be wary that there is possibility for PvP

Caravans = risk of PvP (it's not PvE)

Gathering = risk of PvP (it's not PvE)

Here ill use the same logic in reverse
World Bosses = Primary PvE event since people might not contest it
Open world Dungeons PvX event a pvp intended group might not enter so might not have any possible pvp from occuring
Caravans = Risk of no PvP occuring (So not PvP
Gather = High risk of no pvp (so not PvP)

Soooo yeah it can work both ways too.

Also if you played games from WoW onwards your most likely gonna get a surprise on how dungeons actually function. There a high probability they function much like dungeons in Pre WoW games where you dont fight ur way through from start to end but set up a camp in X area and farm around that spot and there be muiltipul spots and non linear path through the place. This is how i see open world dungeons and general how they work in every game that has open world dungeons ive played.
Instances will be a ur standard start to finish clear though.

Texas

Which is why the "greater threat" determines what is more PvP or PvE.

Because if signing up for an arena and having the other the quit before the battle starts is PvE, then your definition is unworkable.

iccer

Veeshan wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

Instanced dungeons and raids, will basically be the only pure PvE content in this game (if we get those).

Everything else is pretty much PvP.
World bosses = primarily a PvP event, whoever wins gets to kill the boss or rather you kill the boss and defend at the same time.

Open-world dungeons = PvX event, you have to clear the dungeon, but also be wary that there is possibility for PvP

Caravans = risk of PvP (it's not PvE)

Gathering = risk of PvP (it's not PvE)

Here ill use the same logic in reverse
World Bosses = Primary PvE event since people might not contest it
Open world Dungeons PvX event a pvp intended group might not enter so might not have any possible pvp from occuring
Caravans = Risk of no PvP occuring (So not PvP
Gather = High risk of no pvp (so not PvP)

Soooo yeah it can work both ways too.

I don't understand your point.

Yes, you can use the same logic in reverse, but I'm not sure the conclusions are necessarily true.

Sure, some world bosses might not be as contested as others. The rarer they are, and the better loot they drop, the more contested they will be. And trust me, they WILL be contested, if they're worth killing. But we can't really know that right now, not until they actually finish the game and we get to experience it.

Just the fact that another group can come in and kill you, makes it not purely a PvE thing, but rather a PvX thing. Now in most cases, and this is based on my experience from other games, killing a boss isn't even the main or the most exciting thing about the whole event. It's the PvP against other group(s) itself that makes it fun and engaging.

I also feel that bosses for example might not be particularly hard to kill, so again, the fun doesn't come from overcoming a challenging fight against a boss, it comes from beating the other group and taking the boss down yourselves, or even just stopping the other group from killing it.
This begs the question, is that kind of experience going to be fulfilling and satisfying for PvE enjoyers? Are they going to have fun? I don't think so.
If not, this just means the boss is designed with PvP in mind.

Then again, just because people don't contest it, it doesn't mean that it's not an event designed for PvP. It's a PvP event, that is basically finished by a one-sided victory. The event is done before it even started, now you just get to kill the boss.
Again, this also begs the question, are PvE players going to be satisfied by only being able to engage in PvE content, only when other groups decide to not show up? It's totally up to other people whether you will have an enjoyable PvE experience, or just a PvP battle.

To me, this just doesn't seem like a PvE event at all. And it doesn't seem enjoyable to people who only want to do PvE.

Now I could absolutely be wrong about this, because I have no idea how they plan on designing the open world bosses. Maybe they will be mechanically challenging, and hard to take down, on top of there being PvP happening around.

Also, to be honest, this game is just not the game for anyone who's looking to only do PvE. It will be possible, but it doesn't mean it will be particularly great.

With all of that being said, I would like there to be challenging instanced content that can provide decent gear or great looking items when you complete it. Not everything should be in the open world, and not everything should be contestable.

Archeage had dungeons. Now the gear you get from there might not be endgame gear, but it's still decent, and will get you started at endgame. The main gear was crafted gear. I think it will be similar with Ashes as well, but I haven't heard much about dungeons and instanced content so far.

In my opinion, instanced, challenging content should absolutely be added. The loot doesn't have to be the best, it just needs to be good enough, that if you wear that gear, you're useful in PvP. Just useful, and obviously crafted gear will be better if you want to be "competitive" - but not sooo much better that it makes dungeon gear useless. But if someone decides they just want to PvE, gather stuff, maybe try and run some caravans and hope it goes well, they should absolutely have PvE only content that they can do, like instanced dungeons, and raids.

I put caravans and gathering in there just for fun, but even if there is no PvP risk, it's still not "PvE" content.

Dimitraeos

In my opinion, instanced, challenging content should absolutely be added..

I used to be more against this idea but after hearing the debate surrounding "PvX", the PvE side of things absolutely DOES need to have meaningful content that provides a sense of progression and reward that pvp CANT interfere with.

I've liked the following ideas:

1.) (My favorite) Farming mobs and elites in a dungeon has the chance of dropping "boss room locks" or perhaps some kind of key that summons a private instance to attempt a boss encounter without the risk of being ruined by pvp. The RISK in this instance is frontloaded to the farming of said boss summon keys from surrounding monsters in a given dungeon.

2.) Instanced content will yield rewards but only on a daily or weekly loot lockout. Beyond that, if you want to farm, you have to do it in the open world.

Ayeveegaming1

the immortal words of Steven: "This game will not be for everyone".

Ludullu

Veeshan wrote: »

Also if you played games from WoW onwards your most likely gonna get a surprise on how dungeons actually function. There a high probability they function much like dungeons in Pre WoW games where you dont fight ur way through from start to end but set up a camp in X area and farm around that spot and there be muiltipul spots and non linear path through the place. This is how i see open world dungeons and general how they work in every game that has open world dungeons ive played.
Instances will be a ur standard start to finish clear though.

I hope it's like that, but the way they were talking about Carphin reaaaally didn't sound like the open world dungeons of L2, so I'm kinda scared that dungeon will still be "go through it once and get your big loot".

Noaani

Veeshan wrote: »

Here ill use the same logic in reverse
World Bosses = Primary PvE event since people might not contest it

Primary PvE because there might not be PvP.

That isn't a strong argument.

In your experience of PvP enabled open world MMORPG's with open world raid bosses, how often do they go uncontested?

I've seen a handful of spawns over many years, with many hundreds of contested spawns.

If that is the best argument you have at your disposal, I would drop the point all together, to be honest.

Myosotys

tautau wrote: »

@Veeshan Had the best idea in the thread, that the spawn of bosses should have, as a part of their timing, a relationship to the amount of player activity in an area.

If no one hunts in a region, or mines, or farms etc. then the bosses in that area can be very slow in spawning. If a different area has a lot of player activity, that would speed up the spawn. This would be another example of the players impacting the world and what happens in it.

Kill a lot of goblins and the Goblin Godking starts wandering the goblin lands. Start a lot of active farming freeholds and the Dire Wolf pack spawns to feed on the sheep. Keep killing the undead in the graveyard and the LichKing shows up to settle the score.....

I disargree. If the boss is looting some legendary items, the players are going to provoke this situation you're talking about. And there will be full of people 24/24 on the area only to make the boss appear.

Veeshan

Noaani wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

Here ill use the same logic in reverse
World Bosses = Primary PvE event since people might not contest it

Primary PvE because there might not be PvP.

That isn't a strong argument.

In your experience of PvP enabled open world MMORPG's with open world raid bosses, how often do they go uncontested?

I've seen a handful of spawns over many years, with many hundreds of contested spawns.

If that is the best argument you have at your disposal, I would drop the point all together, to be honest.

I play alot of PvP games and 80% of the world bosses fight tend to go uncontested you tend to get muiltipul attempts at bosses before a opposing group can even get enough people to contest it.

The only ones i see that get contested often is when it a planned spawn or there a giant server announcement when a boss spawns.

Also with the size of AoC with limited fast travel also make it harder for groups to quickly organise and contest a boss.

Also the argument there was just a counter argument to a pretty bad statment from the first post which boiled down to PvP may happen when doing the task so that task it now a pvp task. But Flipping it around is PvP might not happen so its not a PvP task.
Their PvX tasks almost everything is a PvX task in this game and shouldnt fall under PvP or PvE tasks.

tbh i think people are fear mongering PvP a little to much atm it not gonna happen as much as people seem to think it gonna be, imo dont complain about PvP content atm wait and see, the world size and design of the game is gonna limit it quite a bit.

Veeshan

iccer wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

Instanced dungeons and raids, will basically be the only pure PvE content in this game (if we get those).

Everything else is pretty much PvP.
World bosses = primarily a PvP event, whoever wins gets to kill the boss or rather you kill the boss and defend at the same time.

Open-world dungeons = PvX event, you have to clear the dungeon, but also be wary that there is possibility for PvP

Caravans = risk of PvP (it's not PvE)

Gathering = risk of PvP (it's not PvE)

Here ill use the same logic in reverse
World Bosses = Primary PvE event since people might not contest it
Open world Dungeons PvX event a pvp intended group might not enter so might not have any possible pvp from occuring
Caravans = Risk of no PvP occuring (So not PvP
Gather = High risk of no pvp (so not PvP)

Soooo yeah it can work both ways too.

I don't understand your point.

Just the fact that another group can come in and kill you, makes it not purely a PvE thing, but rather a PvX thing. Now in most cases, and this is based on my experience from other games, killing a boss isn't even the main or the most exciting thing about the whole event. It's the PvP against other group(s) itself that makes it fun and engaging.

This is kinda my point most PvE task are PvX, Most PvP tasks are PvX aswell.

Even things people see as only PVP still comes back to being PvX, Ganking greens like an ass you then have to PvE to clear corruption, Seiging/nodewars has PvE involved aswell, Caravans might not get attacked by other players but u most likly need to PvE to clear a path through mobs somewhere.

With a couple of exceptions everything in this game boils down to PvX so slapping the PvE/PvP label on things is pointless since u can flip it around and it still works.

Dimitraeos

Veeshan wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

Instanced dungeons and raids, will basically be the only pure PvE content in this game (if we get those).

Everything else is pretty much PvP.
World bosses = primarily a PvP event, whoever wins gets to kill the boss or rather you kill the boss and defend at the same time.

Open-world dungeons = PvX event, you have to clear the dungeon, but also be wary that there is possibility for PvP

Caravans = risk of PvP (it's not PvE)

Gathering = risk of PvP (it's not PvE)

Here ill use the same logic in reverse
World Bosses = Primary PvE event since people might not contest it
Open world Dungeons PvX event a pvp intended group might not enter so might not have any possible pvp from occuring
Caravans = Risk of no PvP occuring (So not PvP
Gather = High risk of no pvp (so not PvP)

Soooo yeah it can work both ways too.

I don't understand your point.

Just the fact that another group can come in and kill you, makes it not purely a PvE thing, but rather a PvX thing. Now in most cases, and this is based on my experience from other games, killing a boss isn't even the main or the most exciting thing about the whole event. It's the PvP against other group(s) itself that makes it fun and engaging.

This is kinda my point most PvE task are PvX, Most PvP tasks are PvX aswell.

Even things people see as only PVP still comes back to being PvX, Ganking greens like an ass you then have to PvE to clear corruption, Seiging/nodewars has PvE involved aswell, Caravans might not get attacked by other players but u most likly need to PvE to clear a path through mobs somewhere.

With a couple of exceptions everything in this game boils down to PvX so slapping the PvE/PvP label on things is pointless since u can flip it around and it still works.

I think the argument about pve vs pvp content though is that pvp can interfere with pve but not visa versa. That's a problem. As a primarily pvp motivated player myself, there's a long term issue if there isn't a way for people who enjoy pve to have meaningful content that pvp cant interfere with. They need their own loop.

That's where an idea like farmable "boss summon keys" comes in. Farming dungeon mobs/minibosses has a chance to drop parts for a boss summon item/key that will provide your group/guild with an item that summons a timed instance for a worthy boss fight.

What's the risk v reward?

1.) Farming the dungeon mods for keys can be contested by pvp.

2.) If you fail to defeat the boss/encounter in the time onces it spawned, you lose. No refunds. Go farm and try again.

3.) Getting out safely with your loot!

At least with this system, pvers can enjoy the actual meaningful challenge (not to mention bosses can actually be tuned correctly) and still wager for a chance at loot.

Ludullu

Dimitraeos wrote: »

I think the argument about pve vs pvp content though is that pvp can interfere with pve but not visa versa. That's a problem. As a primarily pvp motivated player myself, there's a long term issue if there isn't a way for people who enjoy pve to have meaningful content that pvp cant interfere with. They need their own loop.

Or we could have pve that can interfere with pvp. As a pvxer - I want that A LOT. I want people to have abilities that let them control mobs to a greater extent than just "I do or do not aggro a mob".

This kind of approach would also feel fairer to me, cause if my pvp interferes with someone's pve, then the only proper counterbalance is for their pve to be able to interfere with my pvp.

This would work even better if those tools increase the looting rights values, outside of direct dmg stuff. PvErs aggro a mob/boss > see a pvp fight going on nearby or get attacked themselves > use their tool-abilities to interact with the boss in a specific way (ideally with mob/boss properly reacting to the situation cause its AI is designed correctly) > the pvp/attackers get interrupted, the pvpers gotta defend themselves from the mob/boss which helps the pvers finish it off > ??? > profit.

Obviously this is super surface lvl stuff and would need to be tested extensively, but I see this as a much better pvx compromise than "let's just all have our own little corners of content where no one can touch us

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