Homogeneous areas or high specificity in PVE according to classes ?

I've read that AOC's gameplay wanted to avoid the appearance of populated areas according to level by giving importance to all areas, regardless of level. Which is a good thing.

But what about the usefulness and practicability of zones according to class?

Will all classes be equivalent in PVE in all areas?

Or will certain zones be de facto reserved for certain classes?

It seems logical to me that mobs that only attack in close combat should be farmed more by tanks or range classes.

The strategy followed will also have an impact on PvP, with classes with advantage or disadvantage when fighting surrounded by mobs.

It also has a significant impact on the economy, with certain materials easy to obtain for some classes and much harder to obtain for others.

Do you know what's planned?

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ReLamas

Great question! The idea of avoiding level-gated areas in Ashes of Creation is definitely a refreshing approach, as it encourages exploration and keeps the world feeling alive and dynamic.

Regarding the usefulness and practicality of zones according to class, it's an intriguing point to consider. It's true that different classes will naturally excel in different scenarios, whether it's due to their abilities or combat style. For instance, tanks and ranged classes might have an easier time farming mobs that only attack in close combat, while other classes might struggle more in those areas.

From what I've gathered, Intrepid Studios aims to create a balanced experience where all classes can be effective in PvE across various zones. This likely means designing encounters and areas with diverse challenges that cater to different class strengths. It could also involve implementing mechanics that allow all classes to adapt and thrive in different environments, ensuring that no particular zone is overwhelmingly favorable to one class over another.

In terms of PvP, the environment will undoubtedly play a role in class performance. Strategic positioning and the ability to leverage the terrain and nearby mobs could give certain classes an edge. This dynamic interaction between PvE and PvP elements is something I'm really looking forward to, as it adds depth and complexity to the gameplay.

The impact on the economy is another critical factor. Balancing resource availability and ensuring that all classes have equitable access to necessary materials will be essential. It might involve creating diverse gathering opportunities or trade networks where players can exchange resources, ensuring that no class is at a significant disadvantage when it comes to resource collection.

Overall, I'm curious to see how Intrepid plans to address these challenges and create a balanced and inclusive world for all classes. The key will be to maintain flexibility and adaptability in game design, allowing for diverse playstyles and strategies to flourish.

Noaani

I would hope there are areas in which some classes are better than others.

The obvious example of this is undead. There should be classes that do more damage to them. This would create a natural situation where those classes are better in those areas than other classes.

I don't really see any way to make all classes equally viable in all areas without making either all classes bland, or without making all content bland.

As such, I hope they don't even try to do this, but rather focus on giving all primary classes roughly equal weight in areas where they are better than normal.

Myosotys

Noaani wrote: »

I would hope there are areas in which some classes are better than others.

The obvious example of this is undead. There should be classes that do more damage to them. This would create a natural situation where those classes are better in those areas than other classes.

I don't really see any way to make all classes equally viable in all areas without making either all classes bland, or without making all content bland.

As such, I hope they don't even try to do this, but rather focus on giving all primary classes roughly equal weight in areas where they are better than normal.

The example of the undead is indeed a good one. I expect Clerics and especially High Priests and Templars to be excellent against the undead, and to survive for hours in areas where other classes (none Cleric) wouldn't last one minute alone.

But strangely enough, there's very little documentation on undeads in the Wiki and clerics don't seem to have any specific skills/spells against them.

Saabynator

Myosotys wrote: »

I've read that AOC's gameplay wanted to avoid the appearance of populated areas according to level by giving importance to all areas, regardless of level. Which is a good thing.

But what about the usefulness and practicability of zones according to class?

Will all classes be equivalent in PVE in all areas?

Or will certain zones be de facto reserved for certain classes?

It seems logical to me that mobs that only attack in close combat should be farmed more by tanks or range classes.

The strategy followed will also have an impact on PvP, with classes with advantage or disadvantage when fighting surrounded by mobs.

It also has a significant impact on the economy, with certain materials easy to obtain for some classes and much harder to obtain for others.

Do you know what's planned?

I think people will farm on the strengths of the mob. if there is an annoying poison move or something, they wont farm there. There might be a specific mob that wizards are good at, because they die in a nuke or two. Ranger wont farm a specific mob because they instantly charge after a shot. But in general, I would think its probably more the location, lootdrop and general strengths of the mobs. Not if they are ranged or melee.

Myosotys

Saabynator wrote: »

I think people will farm on the strengths of the mob. if there is an annoying poison move or something, they wont farm there. There might be a specific mob that wizards are good at, because they die in a nuke or two. Ranger wont farm a specific mob because they instantly charge after a shot. But in general, I would think its probably more the location, lootdrop and general strengths of the mobs. Not if they are ranged or melee.

So you think every class should be able to farm/xp equally whatever the area ?

Noaani

Myosotys wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I would hope there are areas in which some classes are better than others.

The obvious example of this is undead. There should be classes that do more damage to them. This would create a natural situation where those classes are better in those areas than other classes.

I don't really see any way to make all classes equally viable in all areas without making either all classes bland, or without making all content bland.

As such, I hope they don't even try to do this, but rather focus on giving all primary classes roughly equal weight in areas where they are better than normal.

The example of the undead is indeed a good one. I expect Clerics and especially High Priests and Templars to be excellent against the undead, and to survive for hours in areas where other classes (none Cleric) wouldn't last one minute alone.

But strangely enough, there's very little documentation on undeads in the Wiki and clerics don't seem to have any specific skills/spells against them.

It is far too early in development for things like that to be added to abilities, but that said what often ends up happening in a number of games is that rather than giving a class a bonus to a damage type against a creature type, developers give mobs a vulnrability to the damage type that class deals. A number of cleric abilities deal radiant damage, if undead have a vulnrability to radian damage, this is the same effective thing as giving clerics a buff with damage to undead.

Developers tend to do it this way because it allows them to not put that vulnrability on all undead, if it makes sense for a mob or mob type to not have it, they can simply not add that vulnrability to them, without clerics feeling like their ability should deal additional damage due to the mob being undead.

Other obvious examples of this are treants being vulnrable to fire damage or water elementals being vulnrable to lighning damage. There are an

Saabynator

Myosotys wrote: »

Saabynator wrote: »

I think people will farm on the strengths of the mob. if there is an annoying poison move or something, they wont farm there. There might be a specific mob that wizards are good at, because they die in a nuke or two. Ranger wont farm a specific mob because they instantly charge after a shot. But in general, I would think its probably more the location, lootdrop and general strengths of the mobs. Not if they are ranged or melee.

So you think every class should be able to farm/xp equally whatever the area ?

No, Im saying there is specific mobs some classes will avoid, for regular farming.

arkileo

I think this specificity will emerge whether the devs intend it or not. The mechanics/types of the mobs will automatically cause patterns to emerge.

Look at Classic WoW for example:

Mage AOE farmers, regarded as the quickest way to level up, start this strategy at specifically gnoll camps, where the mobs are placed especially close together, allowing the mage to use blizzard and hit all of them inside the target area. For everyone else, these mob-dense areas are dangerous enough to avoid altogether unless they're significantly over-leveled for the zone.

Paladins get the Exorcism ability, which does high damage but can only target undead. As such, paladins feel a large power spike in the Duskwood zone, which contains a lot of undead.

Blackrock Depths is a famous dungeon that has a specific area with a vault that players can open for fairly good money, except that it's a 5-person dungeon and the vault coffers are behind many packs of mobs. But if you're a rogue or druid in cat form, you can carefully stealth all the way to the vault and open the coffers solo.

These are all examples when level design and class design converge and create emergent patterns. Maybe it was intended for these things to happen, but probably not.

tautau

I agree with the consensus that seems to be building: the mob characteristics will determine the ease with which different types of players can kill them. Rangers, for example, may want to kill slow moving mobs which die before they can reach the archer. Mobs that can be mostly killed with a backstab will attract players who have that skill, and so forth.

So different areas will be easier for certain types of players based on the mobs there. Remember that mobs in a location may change whether it is day or night, which season of the year it is, and events impacting the nearby node or the whole world.

Aszkalon

Myosotys wrote: »

Homogeneous Area's

In one and only " ONE " Factor of the Game, i think being "homogeneous" is an important Factor.

-> If you want a Node to look for Example "very Dwarvish" - as in "classical Dwarvish" - you. WILL. need. a clear Majority of Dunir Dwarf Players there who complete most of the Quests.

" If " i have understood this right,
that is when the racial Identity/Culture of these Players who do the most Quests for the Node - mostly influence the cultural/racial Look and Identity - of the Node.

And when You want for Example be part of a VERY Viking-/Nord-/Skellige-like looking Node,

WELP !!! Then you WILL. need. an overwhelming Majority of the Players doing Quests and Stuff for that Node, being Kae'lar Humans. It will look more Persian/Arabian when it's Vaelune-Humans.

I am afraid we might " NEVER " - EVER - see a good, strong, huge, powerful Kae'lar Node in Ashes of Creation if my Worries are strong enough. And that will be - because "Politics" influenced People's Brains to much in the last +13 Years to start hating and loathing white People.

But who knows ?
Maybe i am just to pessimistic.

Maybe when Ashes "should" release one Day -> MAAAYYYBE we can get like +500 to +1000 or more Players together who all want to live and create the NORD/Skellige/Viking-Dream in around the Middle-Region of the World of Verra - where the Two coldest Biomes have their Home. >;-)

The Words " Never give up/surrender " ring in my Ears. I think People can start to talk about it when Alpha Two will finally arrive and People will - finally - get in really great Numbers a good Impression of how Verra will actually be like.

Yes.
Even if it is just in Development still.

Myosotys

Aszkalon wrote: »

Myosotys wrote: »

Homogeneous Area's

In one and only " ONE " Factor of the Game, i think being "homogeneous" is an important Factor.

-> If you want a Node to look for Example "very Dwarvish" - as in "classical Dwarvish" - you. WILL. need. a clear Majority of Dunir Dwarf Players there who complete most of the Quests.

" If " i have understood this right,
that is when the racial Identity/Culture of these Players who do the most Quests for the Node - mostly influence the cultural/racial Look and Identity - of the Node.

And when You want for Example be part of a VERY Viking-/Nord-/Skellige-like looking Node,

WELP !!! Then you WILL. need. an overwhelming Majority of the Players doing Quests and Stuff for that Node, being Kae'lar Humans. It will look more Persian/Arabian when it's Vaelune-Humans.

I am afraid we might " NEVER " - EVER - see a good, strong, huge, powerful Kae'lar Node in Ashes of Creation if my Worries are strong enough. And that will be - because "Politics" influenced People's Brains to much in the last +13 Years to start hating and loathing white People.

But who knows ?
Maybe i am just to pessimistic.

Maybe when Ashes "should" release one Day -> MAAAYYYBE we can get like +500 to +1000 or more Players together who all want to live and create the NORD/Skellige/Viking-Dream in around the Middle-Region of the World of Verra - where the Two coldest Biomes have their Home. >;-)

The Words " Never give up/surrender " ring in my Ears. I think People can start to talk about it when Alpha Two will finally arrive and People will - finally - get in really great Numbers a good Impression of how Verra will actually be like.

Yes.
Even if it is just in Development still.

I was not talking about the race but the class. And I hope the world will NOT be homogeneous and that each class will NOT be able to farm every mobs and get every mats/ingredients themselves (or at least easy for some and difficult for others).

Aszkalon

Myosotys wrote: »

I was not talking about the race but the class. And I hope the world will NOT be homogeneous and that each class will NOT be able to farm every mobs and get every mats/ingredients themselves (or at least easy for some and difficult for others).

I see.

This should become a Suggestion-Topic, but i think it is already a little bit like that. When i saw the Presentation with the Minotauer-Camp and the Mage, i realised "Mages" are either super-careful there : or super-dead.

Intrepid should definitely have a few Area's in which Enemies are greatly resistant to physical Damage, making the physical Classes like Fighter, Rogue, Ranger and Tank VEEERY weak against the Enemies there. Meaning they need magical Classes there.

And the other way around, of Course.

Or that there are Areas where Enemies can detect Stealth very good. Making Rogues and everyone else who can use Stealth there, pretty dependent on Help from other Classes.

And and and and ... ...

Myosotys

Aszkalon wrote: »

When i saw the Presentation with the Minotauer-Camp and the Mage, i realised "Mages" are either super-careful there : or super-dead.

That's how it should be. Mages should be able to make massive damage in some specific areas and gather tons of mats but becomes losers in some other areas vs mobs with very high magical resistance.

Azherae

I'm hoping this plays out moreso by build than by class, because that's the level of complexity I've come to expect from MMOs that I play for more than a month.

DoT mages kill things like Crabs with high defense, low HP, average damage, high resistances.
Burst mages kill things like Scorpions with decent-high defense, high HP, high damage, lower resistances (sleep-nuke methods)
Quick-hit DPS kill things that fly with higher evasion or evasion skills that occasionally slow down or waste large-strike based DPS rotations.
Big Hit DPS kill things that use berserk/frenzy style statuses (raise attack to lower phys defense) by having a CC response followed by just crushing them with big damage during the window.

Standard stuff, I'm not sure I would call it 'high specificity' in a game like Ashes though. Even if your build in the moment matters a lot, having loadouts for different ways of approaching things even within the same class would let you decide before heading out.

Sure, some classes will lack certain options, I'm not expecting my Dagger-spec Shadow Disciple to ever be bringing down Berserker style enemies efficiently, and might even struggle if I switched to Greatsword Templar or similar, but I don't much like the idea of the simplified 'oh well you're a Cleric so you should fight these'.

That sort of thing can stay in the C-Tier games. I'm here for the A(shes)-Tier experience.

Myosotys

Azherae wrote: »

I'm hoping this plays out moreso by build than by class, because that's the level of complexity I've come to expect from MMOs that I play for more than a month.

DoT mages kill things like Crabs with high defense, low HP, average damage, high resistances.
Burst mages kill things like Scorpions with decent-high defense, high HP, high damage, lower resistances (sleep-nuke methods)
Quick-hit DPS kill things that fly with higher evasion or evasion skills that occasionally slow down or waste large-strike based DPS rotations.
Big Hit DPS kill things that use berserk/frenzy style statuses (raise attack to lower phys defense) by having a CC response followed by just crushing them with big damage during the window.

Standard stuff, I'm not sure I would call it 'high specificity' in a game like Ashes though. Even if your build in the moment matters a lot, having loadouts for different ways of approaching things even within the same class would let you decide before heading out.

Sure, some classes will lack certain options, I'm not expecting my Dagger-spec Shadow Disciple to ever be bringing down Berserker style enemies efficiently, and might even struggle if I switched to Greatsword Templar or similar, but I don't much like the idea of the simplified 'oh well you're a Cleric so you should fight these'.

That sort of thing can stay in the C-Tier games. I'm here for the A(shes)-Tier experience.

Wait a minute, I didn't say that class should be the only factor determining one's ability to farm in one area or another.

It seems obvious that the build will have an influence. But some classes could have a predisposition.

An MMO where one character can do everything as well as the others becomes a single-player online game.

I'm in favor of its specificities to encourage social ties and players' dependence on each other to strengthen the economy and fun.

In PvP, I find it necessary to use the PvE environment, and I imagine that certain classes (or builds, as you pointed out) to be at an advantage or disadvantage in certain zones.

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