Githal wrote: » Veeshan wrote: » George_Black wrote: » Dimitraeos wrote: » George_Black wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Also, if there is no AOE cap, zergs will crumble to small groups. With or without caps, if AoC allows for AoE gameplay to overshadow single target dmg the massively larger numbers will always win and nobody will enjoy pvp. Why would having a handful of AoE options to punish heavily grouped up zerg/deathballs mean that single target is overshadowed? How does a smaller group fight a larger group without some kind of strong aoe to punish them zerging? Because the zerg group has the option for the same abilities. You have let's say 20 people with aoe abilities that deal 2k aoe dmg. No limit on targets. And you have 30 people with the same shit. The 30 will win. Doesnt quiet work that way, player density of the larger group is higher so your aoe will hit more targets at once since a smaller group can spread out easier than a larger one. Dont get me wrong the larger group has the advantage still but it not as much 10 players vs 30 players the cluster of 30 players ill be more dense so any aoe are more likely to hit more targets at once than the group of 30 aoeing the group of 10 Single target skills 10 players = 10 instances of dmg 30 players = 30 instances of dmg AoE attacks for 10v30 10 players casting aoe can do 0-300 instances of dmg (However higher chance to hit closer to the 300 mark due to more players density) where 30 players do 0 - 300 instances of dmg aswell (However lower chance to hit the 300 mark due to lower player density) You have never faced a Zerg group have you? If your numbers are small they will just run over you. They have more heals in their group than the full number of members of your group. You can hardly kill a single player of the enemy even when your whole group focus him with single targets. AOE will do nothing since the healers will just use 1 mass heal each and its already GG. And dont forget that they have several times more CC than your group. They just spam all their biggest cds at start of the combat to cc and deal big dmg and till the spells end you already lost.
Veeshan wrote: » George_Black wrote: » Dimitraeos wrote: » George_Black wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Also, if there is no AOE cap, zergs will crumble to small groups. With or without caps, if AoC allows for AoE gameplay to overshadow single target dmg the massively larger numbers will always win and nobody will enjoy pvp. Why would having a handful of AoE options to punish heavily grouped up zerg/deathballs mean that single target is overshadowed? How does a smaller group fight a larger group without some kind of strong aoe to punish them zerging? Because the zerg group has the option for the same abilities. You have let's say 20 people with aoe abilities that deal 2k aoe dmg. No limit on targets. And you have 30 people with the same shit. The 30 will win. Doesnt quiet work that way, player density of the larger group is higher so your aoe will hit more targets at once since a smaller group can spread out easier than a larger one. Dont get me wrong the larger group has the advantage still but it not as much 10 players vs 30 players the cluster of 30 players ill be more dense so any aoe are more likely to hit more targets at once than the group of 30 aoeing the group of 10 Single target skills 10 players = 10 instances of dmg 30 players = 30 instances of dmg AoE attacks for 10v30 10 players casting aoe can do 0-300 instances of dmg (However higher chance to hit closer to the 300 mark due to more players density) where 30 players do 0 - 300 instances of dmg aswell (However lower chance to hit the 300 mark due to lower player density)
George_Black wrote: » Dimitraeos wrote: » George_Black wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Also, if there is no AOE cap, zergs will crumble to small groups. With or without caps, if AoC allows for AoE gameplay to overshadow single target dmg the massively larger numbers will always win and nobody will enjoy pvp. Why would having a handful of AoE options to punish heavily grouped up zerg/deathballs mean that single target is overshadowed? How does a smaller group fight a larger group without some kind of strong aoe to punish them zerging? Because the zerg group has the option for the same abilities. You have let's say 20 people with aoe abilities that deal 2k aoe dmg. No limit on targets. And you have 30 people with the same shit. The 30 will win.
Dimitraeos wrote: » George_Black wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Also, if there is no AOE cap, zergs will crumble to small groups. With or without caps, if AoC allows for AoE gameplay to overshadow single target dmg the massively larger numbers will always win and nobody will enjoy pvp. Why would having a handful of AoE options to punish heavily grouped up zerg/deathballs mean that single target is overshadowed? How does a smaller group fight a larger group without some kind of strong aoe to punish them zerging?
George_Black wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Also, if there is no AOE cap, zergs will crumble to small groups. With or without caps, if AoC allows for AoE gameplay to overshadow single target dmg the massively larger numbers will always win and nobody will enjoy pvp.
Dolyem wrote: » Also, if there is no AOE cap, zergs will crumble to small groups.
Veeshan wrote: » If i were the devs i would make aoe heals only heal party members
Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: » Veeshan wrote: » If i were the devs i would make aoe heals only heal party members Yes! Raid-based healing is the dumbest thing ever. Party is one unit, so why the hell should my healer ever think about other units? Heals should be either single target or party-wide - that's it.
Solid_Sneak wrote: » I like how the solutions for healing involve the healers being heavily limited, and not counter play by these fine masters of tactical warfare. What is focusing the healer anyway.
Ravicus wrote: » You know what would shake things up? Friendly fire. You could damage your friends and heal your enemies. You would have to stay on point and focus targets weather you are doing damage or healing. That would be a trip.
Veeshan wrote: » Ravicus wrote: » You know what would shake things up? Friendly fire. You could damage your friends and heal your enemies. You would have to stay on point and focus targets weather you are doing damage or healing. That would be a trip. wont happen makes thing to hard for peopel and then u gotta take into account of corruption and griefing, do u flag if u friendly fire, do u get corruption if u accidently last hit an ally, if not well can i trust people in my party not to grief me. It wont work in this game with how it currently developed and to late to change it at this stage. So u wont see friendly fire.
Veeshan wrote: » Solid_Sneak wrote: » I like how the solutions for healing involve the healers being heavily limited, and not counter play by these fine masters of tactical warfare. What is focusing the healer anyway. Well the difference between AoE healing and AoE dmg is AoE requires both sides to be effective caster need to time it right to hit most targets and defenders need to be sily enough to allow it by grouping up, if they never cluster up then they cant effectivly use AoE dmg skills Where AoE heal is pretty much use it when a couple people are injured which will be most of the time in combat unless the attackers are super good at focus targeting a single person at once.
Solid_Sneak wrote: » Veeshan wrote: » Solid_Sneak wrote: » I like how the solutions for healing involve the healers being heavily limited, and not counter play by these fine masters of tactical warfare. What is focusing the healer anyway. Well the difference between AoE healing and AoE dmg is AoE requires both sides to be effective caster need to time it right to hit most targets and defenders need to be sily enough to allow it by grouping up, if they never cluster up then they cant effectivly use AoE dmg skills Where AoE heal is pretty much use it when a couple people are injured which will be most of the time in combat unless the attackers are super good at focus targeting a single person at once. Do you know what line of sight is, cause I think you might be unaware how it works??? Seems to me you are discussing a bunch of facerollers, fighting another bunch of facerollers, and your solution to the mindless, off-time spellcasting or nuking, is nerfing the healer, instead of "getting good". Like, what is your solution to an organised group that will melt you within a long CC chain, nerfing the bard? What is your solution to shield healer builds? Or healers focused on raid wide damage prevention? The tank absorbtion field? What if 3 tanks rotate those fields, should we nerf tanks? Ban thrm to the shadow realm? What if there is a steel battery build (healer that absorb damage to them like masochists). What about Spidertanking Healers. Should healers be unable to heal other healers? The list goes deeper. I have no clue if the cleric/rogue can lifesteal, but if they can, what is the solution to Siphoner healer builds?
Dimitraeos wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Dimitraeos wrote: » The zerg wouldnt have the same tools actually, that's the point. If you want to survive long enough to get close enough to use one of these things - yes they would. Imagine they deal an average of 15% HP to a player. That doesnt mean you need 7 of them to kill someone - that means you need 14 to be able to assume 7 of them will be used before the person is dead, you will need a number of healers to keep people up, a few tanks to keep the zerg from just running over you with melee, and probably a few others that would be Ashes specific. If we are talking about each attack dealing 15% damage, you are looking at needing 22 - 24 players in order to have a reasonable assumption that you can get 7 off close enough together to make it impossible to heal through - if we are assuming a partially competent zerg. As I said, you need to zerg the zerg to make this work. if you are assuming each attack would deal more than 15% of an average players HP in damage, and to an unlimited number of players within the area of effect, then I'm just going to go ahead and say nope. On top of all of this, there is the need to consider what this kind of AoE would mean for the games PvE. Im not following your example. In my example the group of 8 going up against the group of lets say 16+ could leverage some kind of scaling AoE ability to deal 30% (an example) more damage to the group of the 16+ but the group of 16+ couldnt leverage that same mechanic against the group of 8 (because there arent enough potential targets to scale off of.
Noaani wrote: » Dimitraeos wrote: » The zerg wouldnt have the same tools actually, that's the point. If you want to survive long enough to get close enough to use one of these things - yes they would. Imagine they deal an average of 15% HP to a player. That doesnt mean you need 7 of them to kill someone - that means you need 14 to be able to assume 7 of them will be used before the person is dead, you will need a number of healers to keep people up, a few tanks to keep the zerg from just running over you with melee, and probably a few others that would be Ashes specific. If we are talking about each attack dealing 15% damage, you are looking at needing 22 - 24 players in order to have a reasonable assumption that you can get 7 off close enough together to make it impossible to heal through - if we are assuming a partially competent zerg. As I said, you need to zerg the zerg to make this work. if you are assuming each attack would deal more than 15% of an average players HP in damage, and to an unlimited number of players within the area of effect, then I'm just going to go ahead and say nope. On top of all of this, there is the need to consider what this kind of AoE would mean for the games PvE.
Dimitraeos wrote: » The zerg wouldnt have the same tools actually, that's the point.
The pve concern is an easy fix. Just dont enable it for pve.
Noaani wrote: » A zerg is 50 at a minimum. The 30 in the example above was enough to point out that it wouldn't work, but 30 is still less than a fill raid.
Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: » Noaani wrote: » A zerg is 50 at a minimum. The 30 in the example above was enough to point out that it wouldn't work, but 30 is still less than a fill raid. Considering that Steven's aiming at 500v500, and 50 being 1/10 of that - 50 is nowhere near a zerg in Ashes terms. 100 would be the bare minimum, but still not really.
Dolyem wrote: » People arguing for factions just want a "common cause" system to direct players goals. You get this naturally through nodes in Ashes. And one could argue that guilds themselves are factions in a way.
Noaani wrote: » Dimitraeos wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Dimitraeos wrote: » The zerg wouldnt have the same tools actually, that's the point. If you want to survive long enough to get close enough to use one of these things - yes they would. Imagine they deal an average of 15% HP to a player. That doesnt mean you need 7 of them to kill someone - that means you need 14 to be able to assume 7 of them will be used before the person is dead, you will need a number of healers to keep people up, a few tanks to keep the zerg from just running over you with melee, and probably a few others that would be Ashes specific. If we are talking about each attack dealing 15% damage, you are looking at needing 22 - 24 players in order to have a reasonable assumption that you can get 7 off close enough together to make it impossible to heal through - if we are assuming a partially competent zerg. As I said, you need to zerg the zerg to make this work. if you are assuming each attack would deal more than 15% of an average players HP in damage, and to an unlimited number of players within the area of effect, then I'm just going to go ahead and say nope. On top of all of this, there is the need to consider what this kind of AoE would mean for the games PvE. Im not following your example. In my example the group of 8 going up against the group of lets say 16+ could leverage some kind of scaling AoE ability to deal 30% (an example) more damage to the group of the 16+ but the group of 16+ couldnt leverage that same mechanic against the group of 8 (because there arent enough potential targets to scale off of. 16 isn't a zerg. Its less than half of a raid. If that is the size you are thinking this.kind of thing is for, then I change my opinion from "it won't work" to "it won't work and it isn't needed". A zerg is 50 at a minimum. The 30 in the example above was enough to point out that it wouldn't work, but 30 is still less than a fill raid. If you have 8 and are going uo against 16, the appropriate solution is to get more people, not to expect the game to provide you with leverage. The pve concern is an easy fix. Just dont enable it for pve. Hard nope on that one. If something works, if it deals damage, it should function the same in PvP and PvE.
