Weapons seem redundant beyond combat style

Long story short. I've watched melee classes and ranged classes. I have seen the combat iterations and I've seen the class changes.

Weapons are redundant because you do not need a good weapon. You can currently max stats dye to the amount of armour slots and accessory slots. Weapon skill trees are lacklustre and the basic attack is a pittance. Not sure how the situation has occurred but I noticed the trend after the devs said stats will have soft caps.

Therefore, I do not see the need to min max a weapon. It is similar to paladin in bg3. You can have the crappest weapons but Divine smite doesn't increase off weapon, it increases off level.

Right now, I do not even believe the combat team understands combat. Every iteration is an improvement which shows the lack of cohesive application.

It is even debatable whether armour needs to be levelled and enchanted. Though as I said before the armour and accessory slots would be ample to min max.

I haven't touched sfx on the weapons and armour though. I have focussed on the general application I have seen since 2017.

Any thoughts to add?

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Ludullu

Songcaller wrote: »

I have quickly checked the wiki (on beach about to have bbq). I can't locate where the 'base' comes from nor the 'rating'. Yes, I often make formulas when I can. The lifeblood of min maxing requires the arteries of foundation to be revealed. 😉

I think base is just the innate power of your character, which is why Steven said gear only gives a portion of your dps.

Rating definitely comes from several sources, and is allegedly influenced by the str and int stats.

The funny thing is that on the bard, the str stat can be directly applied to the phys power stat. The phys power is 13.9, which means it's 10 base + 39*K, 39 there being the rating. And Bard's str is 39.

So if the Bard is a magic archetype, which this pic kinda implies imo

That might mean that weapon's impact on the power stat is only applied to the magic power, while phys power is determined by str alone and directly.

Alternatively, of course, there's a chance that all of Steven's items have not a single damn phys power stat on them, which would leave purely the str impact.

And if we go with that last assumption, it would imply that prime attributes are applied 1:1 to the power stats. Which then implies that 102 of the Fighter's phys power rating comes from str. So the 232 that's left comes from items. Even if the weapon is only a half of that rating - that's still a noticeable impact on your overall power stat, which means that it's quite usefull to get better weapons or enchant your weak ones.

Songcaller

So, the gatekeepers will be happy. Low rating = no raids.

Ludullu

Sathrago wrote: »

Honestly the more I look into the skills they have shown off, the less I want for every weapon to be used by every class. Some of these just wouldnt make sense. Like a fighter with a book would need extensive animation/effect creation just to make it work. and ranger as you can see above is mostly bow focused. I expect that there will be many restrictions on what weapons can be used across the archetypes due to skills not being able to use them. It kind of defeats the stated goal of "everyone can use any weapon" but this does make it more important what weapon you bring.

Don't you dare deny me my Wand Shield Tank!!

As for "anyone can use anything". That has never implied that using anything will be in any way viable. It simply states that it's possible.

Ludullu

Songcaller wrote: »

So, the gatekeepers will be happy. Low rating = no raids.

This will highly depend on the build and class. You might have low power stat rating, but your crit values could be off the charts, which pushes you over the dps of all the other dps in your raid.

Weapon combo passives could potentially influence multipliers and/or effects, so even if your weapon is shit, your attacks might provide a great utility to the party.

And this is not even talking about any potential synergies between classes that might provide a bigger party dps boost even w/o the presence of high power rating.

But yes, ultimately there'll always be a way to filter people. Your stats are usually one of the biggest filters in any given game, be they your basic stats or your dps values.

Songcaller

Yeah. I still do not believe I will boost my weapon. I would only have to weave and proc buffs etc as Bard. Though if I play the game for decades you can bet your boots i would eventually get the urge to have an awesome weapon skin. 😎

Sathrago

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

Honestly the more I look into the skills they have shown off, the less I want for every weapon to be used by every class. Some of these just wouldnt make sense. Like a fighter with a book would need extensive animation/effect creation just to make it work. and ranger as you can see above is mostly bow focused. I expect that there will be many restrictions on what weapons can be used across the archetypes due to skills not being able to use them. It kind of defeats the stated goal of "everyone can use any weapon" but this does make it more important what weapon you bring.

Don't you dare deny me my Wand Shield Tank!!

As for "anyone can use anything". That has never implied that using anything will be in any way viable. It simply states that it's possible.

look if you can use a wand and a shield or a stupid book it should be more than reasonable for me to use a 2h shield to bash peoples faces in.

Otr

Backpacks should give tanks increased player collision.

Otr

Sathrago wrote: »

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

Honestly the more I look into the skills they have shown off, the less I want for every weapon to be used by every class. Some of these just wouldnt make sense. Like a fighter with a book would need extensive animation/effect creation just to make it work. and ranger as you can see above is mostly bow focused. I expect that there will be many restrictions on what weapons can be used across the archetypes due to skills not being able to use them. It kind of defeats the stated goal of "everyone can use any weapon" but this does make it more important what weapon you bring.

Don't you dare deny me my Wand Shield Tank!!

As for "anyone can use anything". That has never implied that using anything will be in any way viable. It simply states that it's possible.

look if you can use a wand and a shield or a stupid book it should be more than reasonable for me to use a 2h shield to bash peoples faces in.

One of Steven's examples was
Certain higher-end weapons (and Armor) have active abilities, but the intention is that these abilities will not radically redefine the way an archetype is played.[33]

Let's say a dagger has some slashing effects that bleed the target or that cripple the target... Every time you attack you have a chance to proc that effect. That effect then can synergize with what your active skills tree has available to it. So let's say your backstab deals 30 additional damage to a bleeding target. If you attack with your main weapon first and the target gets the bleed proc off and you do your backstab skill then you're synergizing your effects.[26] – Steven Sharif
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Weapon_combo_system

So if you have no backstab skill, you will have no reason to use the dagger.

arkileo

For anyone confused by the back and forth in this thread,

K here is a constant. (K is the typical variable used in math for a constant). That constant is 0.1, which means for every 10 physical power rating, you get 1 physical power.

Now looking at two recent items (Magical power uses the same formula, so they're comparable, maybe):

Power from a rare level 10 weapon: 346
Power from an uncommon level 20 jewelry: 27 * 0.1 = 2.7

@Songcaller since you seem to have formulas held close to your chest, maybe you can tell use what that jewelry scales to as rare and level 10.

The power difference between these two items is massive. If the trend holds for other items, it seems like most of your power comes from weapons, so you'd be at a massive disadvantage by not upgrading your weapon at every opportunity. Unless the soft cap on power is ridiculously low, your weapon seems like it will hugely matter.

Obvious disclaimer that that wand comes from June 2023, I think, so it could be outdated. I wanted to use it because it shows a level requirement, unlike this more recent weapon from the commissions showcase:

This also shows a quite massive amount of power compared to that necklace.

I'm a newcomer to this discussion, so am I missing something here?

Songcaller

The issue is not the formulas per say. It is the mirroring of the formula that is the problem. It means you will always build the exact same way but not use the same stats each time. Every toon will be identical but not every toon will use the same weapon.

I keep seeing weapons and accessories being shown. There is no reason to my knowledge why all armour and accessories can be enchanted to safe level +5 and I bet such an approach would reach soft cap long before the weapon has a chance.

Ludullu

arkileo wrote: »

I'm a newcomer to this discussion, so am I missing something here?

This post, mostly. And some theorizing from it later on. But not much else.

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Well, the power stat doesn't come directly from the main attribute, so the weapon's own stat values are still really important.

The same was true in the bard showcase.

61int, but the rating is at 234.

And considering that in both cases the characters were wearing the same type of jewels from this set

There's 2 possibilities:
difference between magic and physic weapons is huge (i.e. 334phys power vs 39 phys power)

Steven went out of his way to give himself super precise jewels with magic atk power for the bard showcase, in order to boost his m.a.p.

To me this implies that difference between weapons is big enough to not make them redundant. And this would also imply that vertical increase of the weapon's main attacking stat would also mean only a 1/10 (even slightly less) of that increase in pure dmg output, cause the "raiting" part of the attack power equation is always 1/10ed to make the numbers smaller.

p.s. this is to anyone reading. Please do not hold the current items to their lvl requirements or stats. None of that is real of worth truly caring about. None of this has come even close to being balanced, nor should it be. Weapon stats have already undergone SEVERAL huge changes in the last few years, so assuming that the current stuff is somehow static would be silly.

The only thing we can kinda really judge is the equations and multipliers, though even those are most likely a "WiP" kinda thing.

But my main point is that neither lvls nor stats really exist right now. And any requirement on any item is simply there to see if the system is working correctly.

Ludullu

Songcaller wrote: »

I keep seeing weapons and accessories being shown. There is no reason to my knowledge why all armour and accessories can be enchanted to safe level +5 and I bet such an approach would reach soft cap long before the weapon has a chance.

Is there any reason for you to believe that literally every item type can have phys or mage power stat on it?

I'd personally hope that is NOT the case, for the exact reason you stated. If any item can be given any stat - items have no inherent value. I sure as fuck hope that is not the case, cause what's the point of farming for shit if you can just craft the most basic item with the stat you want and then just enchant it higher. That'd be waaaaay too stupid of a design.

Songcaller

I know it's all WIP hence my thread input. I have advised before not to putting buffs and debuffs on same stat or damage and heals on same stat - still no movement. I have now advised to boost the soft caps to hard caps which require a full suite of +15 enchantment level to unlock. It is how we can use l2 olympiad toons if luck, dares and the rng gods agree.

Songcaller

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Songcaller wrote: »

I keep seeing weapons and accessories being shown. There is no reason to my knowledge why all armour and accessories can be enchanted to safe level +5 and I bet such an approach would reach soft cap long before the weapon has a chance.

Is there any reason for you to believe that literally every item type can have phys or mage power stat on it?

I'd personally hope that is NOT the case, for the exact reason you stated. If any item can be given any stat - items have no inherent value. I sure as fuck hope that is not the case, cause what's the point of farming for shit if you can just craft the most basic item with the stat you want and then just enchant it higher. That'd be waaaaay too stupid of a design.

Not sure how to respond. If we cam use any weapon we need the ability to select the best stats for the build on our toons. I still believe hybrid will suck for the reasons you mentioned and on top of that crofters can not change all stats on a piece of gear. The further I go down the rabbit whole the more I feel I've been conned out of 3000 quid of packages and cosmetics because the more that is revealed the more mirroring I am seeing.

Azherae

Songcaller wrote: »

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Songcaller wrote: »

I keep seeing weapons and accessories being shown. There is no reason to my knowledge why all armour and accessories can be enchanted to safe level +5 and I bet such an approach would reach soft cap long before the weapon has a chance.

Is there any reason for you to believe that literally every item type can have phys or mage power stat on it?

I'd personally hope that is NOT the case, for the exact reason you stated. If any item can be given any stat - items have no inherent value. I sure as fuck hope that is not the case, cause what's the point of farming for shit if you can just craft the most basic item with the stat you want and then just enchant it higher. That'd be waaaaay too stupid of a design.

Not sure how to respond. If we cam use any weapon we need the ability to select the best stats for the build on our toons. I still believe hybrid will suck for the reasons you mentioned and on top of that crofters can not change all stats on a piece of gear. The further I go down the rabbit whole the more I feel I've been conned out of 3000 quid of packages and cosmetics because the more that is revealed the more mirroring I am seeing.

The thing is, we don't actually need that.

There are multiple ways to do it, and multiple ways to design even with 'min-maxing' that doesn't require it.

All we need is some decent combat depth that takes us beyond 'maximize the particular type of damage your skills do'.

Obviously I have the TL bias, but I also believe that if TL can do it (and they absolutely do) Intrepid can easily at least match them.

The only thing 'holding them back' would be a thing that we already know most gamers don't care about. I empathize with you if you care a lot, but this isn't a situation where minority rules, y'know?

Ludullu

Songcaller wrote: »

Not sure how to respond. If we cam use any weapon we need the ability to select the best stats for the build on our toons. I still believe hybrid will suck for the reasons you mentioned and on top of that crofters can not change all stats on a piece of gear. The further I go down the rabbit whole the more I feel I've been conned out of 3000 quid of packages and cosmetics because the more that is revealed the more mirroring I am seeing.

Like I said in a previous comment here, the ability to use any weapon doesn't necessarily mean that any weapon will be, or even can be, your BiS.

At least I never took that claim as that.

If anything, to me, different items having different specialties is the entire point of "you could attempt all kinds of builds, because you can use anything". A mage with a twohander might go into a strict phys build, but with elemental aplications on his basic attacks. While my wand tank will be the best at defending others, and not good at all at dpsing.

Songcaller

There is need and there is want. I learnt the best builds on bg3, best equipment for each build, best process for each group, best companions for the perfect roles. Every game of bg3 is the same. My main toon just changes role each rendition but the team as a whole is identical. Replayability level? Next to zero unless you love the sex scenes.

Otr

Now I want to know ...
Certain higher-end weapons (and Armor) have active abilities
... what active abilities armor can have?

Also I want to say that weapons should have more basic attacks instead of just one, mapped by default to Q or left-mouse-click.
With a blade you can slash, you can stab, you can parry ...
Dual wielded weapons could bring something from each single handed original weapon.

Ludullu

Songcaller wrote: »

There is need and there is want. I learnt the best builds on bg3, best equipment for each build, best process for each group, best companions for the perfect roles. Every game of bg3 is the same. My main toon just changes role each rendition but the team as a whole is identical. Replayability level? Next to zero unless you love the sex scenes.

This most definitely sounds like a you problem. You've optimized the fun out of the game for yourself, by "solving it". But if doing that was fun for you - that's cool. You can have the same fun with Ashes once it comes out, while the absolute majority of players have fun doing absolutely random shit that they find interesting

Azherae

Songcaller wrote: »

There is need and there is want. I learnt the best builds on bg3, best equipment for each build, best process for each group, best companions for the perfect roles. Every game of bg3 is the same. My main toon just changes role each rendition but the team as a whole is identical. Replayability level? Next to zero unless you love the sex scenes.

Right, because you're that type of person, and your expectation of roles in games line up with that too. Just let this one go, since it's the outcome of an interaction between your personality type and this game's design, moreso than a flaw in the design itself.

Just be the person who builds the optimized version of each class and uses the weapon that is optimal for whatever you consider that class' role to be.

That's not a thing that reflects on either 'whether you need to level weapons' nor 'whether you actually can use them all'.

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