Weapons seem redundant beyond combat style

Long story short. I've watched melee classes and ranged classes. I have seen the combat iterations and I've seen the class changes.

Weapons are redundant because you do not need a good weapon. You can currently max stats dye to the amount of armour slots and accessory slots. Weapon skill trees are lacklustre and the basic attack is a pittance. Not sure how the situation has occurred but I noticed the trend after the devs said stats will have soft caps.

Therefore, I do not see the need to min max a weapon. It is similar to paladin in bg3. You can have the crappest weapons but Divine smite doesn't increase off weapon, it increases off level.

Right now, I do not even believe the combat team understands combat. Every iteration is an improvement which shows the lack of cohesive application.

It is even debatable whether armour needs to be levelled and enchanted. Though as I said before the armour and accessory slots would be ample to min max.

I haven't touched sfx on the weapons and armour though. I have focussed on the general application I have seen since 2017.

Any thoughts to add?

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Ludullu

Otr wrote: »

Now I want to know ...
Certain higher-end weapons (and Armor) have active abilities
... what active abilities armor can have

If you listen to that quote, it's more about "the ability will need this item" rather than "this item gives an ability".

Azherae

Otr wrote: »

Now I want to know ...
Certain higher-end weapons (and Armor) have active abilities
... what active abilities armor can have?

Also I want to say that weapons should have more basic attacks instead of just one, mapped by default to Q or left-mouse-click.
With a blade you can slash, you can stab, you can parry ...
Dual wielded weapons could bring something from each single handed original weapon.

Usually the 'Armor' type Active ability is a thing you can choose to activate when you take a specific type of damage, or a particular amount of damage.

Sometimes it's just 'I know I'm going to be taking damage so I activate this defensive skill'. It's no different than weapon, really.

Songcaller

Otr wrote: »

Now I want to know ...
Certain higher-end weapons (and Armor) have active abilities
... what active abilities armor can have?

Also I want to say that weapons should have more basic attacks instead of just one, mapped by default to Q or left-mouse-click.
With a blade you can slash, you can stab, you can parry ...
Dual wielded weapons could bring something from each single handed original weapon.

Careful mate. I can be whacky and make such notions (I get sectioned a lot in reality). I've seen some armour with polymorph skill imbued. Didn't delve deeper though.

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Songcaller wrote: »

There is need and there is want. I learnt the best builds on bg3, best equipment for each build, best process for each group, best companions for the perfect roles. Every game of bg3 is the same. My main toon just changes role each rendition but the team as a whole is identical. Replayability level? Next to zero unless you love the sex scenes.

This most definitely sounds like a you problem. You've optimized the fun out of the game for yourself, by "solving it". But if doing that was fun for you - that's cool. You can have the same fun with Ashes once it comes out, while the absolute majority of players have fun doing absolutely random shit that they find interesting

Yeah. The thing is the guild will either solve the game with me or without me and my pledge upon recruitment wad to assist in solving the game. I have been on holiday for months and have not had chance to discuss matters with my guild (unless my flat mate has been on my discord). Such is the way, the truth and the life. 😉

Otr

Songcaller wrote: »

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Songcaller wrote: »

I keep seeing weapons and accessories being shown. There is no reason to my knowledge why all armour and accessories can be enchanted to safe level +5 and I bet such an approach would reach soft cap long before the weapon has a chance.

Is there any reason for you to believe that literally every item type can have phys or mage power stat on it?

I'd personally hope that is NOT the case, for the exact reason you stated. If any item can be given any stat - items have no inherent value. I sure as fuck hope that is not the case, cause what's the point of farming for shit if you can just craft the most basic item with the stat you want and then just enchant it higher. That'd be waaaaay too stupid of a design.

Not sure how to respond. If we cam use any weapon we need the ability to select the best stats for the build on our toons. I still believe hybrid will suck for the reasons you mentioned and on top of that crofters can not change all stats on a piece of gear. The further I go down the rabbit whole the more I feel I've been conned out of 3000 quid of packages and cosmetics because the more that is revealed the more mirroring I am seeing.

Crafters will be able to assign different skills/abilities and stats on gear.[31][32]

Crafters will be able to 'rejigger' stat blocks; and there will be a couple of other ways to move things around to create both the look and the stat block that you're looking for. It's not always going to be easy. There will be a lot of challenges involved with that. But the goal is to give you guys the option to customize your gear the way you want them to be.[31] – Jeffrey Bard

Master crafters will be able to influence several (but not all) stats on their crafted items.[31][33]
Stats on crafted items will vary based on the item's rarity.[34]
There will also be methods of moving stat blocks around but this won't necessarily be an easy task.[35][31]

The most recent link is from 2011
https://youtube.com/watch?v=FkWLLLOlm2E&t=3178s

Azherae

Otr wrote: »

Songcaller wrote: »

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Songcaller wrote: »

I keep seeing weapons and accessories being shown. There is no reason to my knowledge why all armour and accessories can be enchanted to safe level +5 and I bet such an approach would reach soft cap long before the weapon has a chance.

Is there any reason for you to believe that literally every item type can have phys or mage power stat on it?

I'd personally hope that is NOT the case, for the exact reason you stated. If any item can be given any stat - items have no inherent value. I sure as fuck hope that is not the case, cause what's the point of farming for shit if you can just craft the most basic item with the stat you want and then just enchant it higher. That'd be waaaaay too stupid of a design.

Not sure how to respond. If we cam use any weapon we need the ability to select the best stats for the build on our toons. I still believe hybrid will suck for the reasons you mentioned and on top of that crofters can not change all stats on a piece of gear. The further I go down the rabbit whole the more I feel I've been conned out of 3000 quid of packages and cosmetics because the more that is revealed the more mirroring I am seeing.

Crafters will be able to assign different skills/abilities and stats on gear.[31][32]

Crafters will be able to 'rejigger' stat blocks; and there will be a couple of other ways to move things around to create both the look and the stat block that you're looking for. It's not always going to be easy. There will be a lot of challenges involved with that. But the goal is to give you guys the option to customize your gear the way you want them to be.[31] – Jeffrey Bard

Master crafters will be able to influence several (but not all) stats on their crafted items.[31][33]
Stats on crafted items will vary based on the item's rarity.[34]
There will also be methods of moving stat blocks around but this won't necessarily be an easy task.[35][31]

The most recent link is from 2011
https://youtube.com/watch?v=FkWLLLOlm2E&t=3178s

Yes, all this stuff is basically trivial, if you build it up from the bottom.

For example, TL's installed basis is able to go upwards a full five steps of complexity over the next 2 years if they want it to, and easily match what Ashes is offering. The question is almost always if the playerbase will want that, and that's pretty much what this thread is about.

"We haven't seen the same type of base from Ashes yet as we've seen in TL."

But we don't need to care about that, it's easy to do. The 'confusing' part, for someone like OP, is 'why isn't it already done when it's so easy to do?' and getting a bit 'agitated' because of it.

No big deal though, things are working.

Songcaller

Hmm. I have of course read those words when I read/read the wiki. Until we can get hands on it is difficult to quantify the substance against the words...

Otr

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

Now I want to know ...
Certain higher-end weapons (and Armor) have active abilities
... what active abilities armor can have

If you listen to that quote, it's more about "the ability will need this item" rather than "this item gives an ability".

Eventually he mentions active skills too
https://youtu.be/OmTNooWyZxU?t=4630

Azherae

Songcaller wrote: »

Hmm. I have of course read those words when I read/read the wiki. Until we can get hands on it is difficult to quantify the substance against the words...

It's really not though, you're just being a bit unnecessarily skeptical.

We have examples of this, we have an example of this from this year. If this isn't about specific numbers (which people are telling you that it shouldn't be), then there's nothing difficult about it. I know you're the type who could bang this up in an afternoon.

Songcaller

What I meant by substance are these old quotes verses the new. Of course, I take Steven quotes on board more than Jeff quotes these days but the mixed messages could be why the epic mace is neither good for physical or magical build outright.

Azherae

Songcaller wrote: »

What I meant by substance are these old quotes verses the new. Of course, I take Steven quotes on board more than Jeff quotes these days but the mixed messages could be why the epic mace is neither good for physical or magical build outright.

But it's just some random instance of the mace that happened to end up on the wiki.

My Heavenly Arbiter Attire doesn't have the same stats as my tank's Heavenly Arbiter Attire because the Traits are different.

It only takes the bare minimum to go from 'Oh, these traits are RNG and these items are drops from Instanced Dungeons' to 'Oh, these traits are controlled by the Crafter's experience and the Materials used to make the armor'.

Not every BludgeonBane has to be the same.

Songcaller

Yeah I understand not all Mace's need to be the same. The substance I refer to specifically is how much can stat blocks be changed? What stats are on said weapon schematics at first blush and which stats have been modified to make a mace that neither works for physical, magical or even hybrid? 😇

Azherae

Well, would you like approximately 300 examples?

I'm assuming that just basic proof of concept is enough.

For anyone who takes a look at that, just note that not every item has the same options for Traits, even within a gear type or rarity tier

That is, there are Epic Chest Pieces that have Melee Evasion as an option for Traits, and others that lack it. If we apply that to this conversation, then there's no concern.

Songcaller

Hmm. I thought I'd be redirected to all the armour sets put in for a2 on the wiki but I was sent to TnL. I've read the current list of examples but the examples do not state how the items were created only if they are from vendor or crafter.

Otr

Azherae wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

Songcaller wrote: »

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Songcaller wrote: »

I keep seeing weapons and accessories being shown. There is no reason to my knowledge why all armour and accessories can be enchanted to safe level +5 and I bet such an approach would reach soft cap long before the weapon has a chance.

Is there any reason for you to believe that literally every item type can have phys or mage power stat on it?

I'd personally hope that is NOT the case, for the exact reason you stated. If any item can be given any stat - items have no inherent value. I sure as fuck hope that is not the case, cause what's the point of farming for shit if you can just craft the most basic item with the stat you want and then just enchant it higher. That'd be waaaaay too stupid of a design.

Not sure how to respond. If we cam use any weapon we need the ability to select the best stats for the build on our toons. I still believe hybrid will suck for the reasons you mentioned and on top of that crofters can not change all stats on a piece of gear. The further I go down the rabbit whole the more I feel I've been conned out of 3000 quid of packages and cosmetics because the more that is revealed the more mirroring I am seeing.

Crafters will be able to assign different skills/abilities and stats on gear.[31][32]

Crafters will be able to 'rejigger' stat blocks; and there will be a couple of other ways to move things around to create both the look and the stat block that you're looking for. It's not always going to be easy. There will be a lot of challenges involved with that. But the goal is to give you guys the option to customize your gear the way you want them to be.[31] – Jeffrey Bard

Master crafters will be able to influence several (but not all) stats on their crafted items.[31][33]
Stats on crafted items will vary based on the item's rarity.[34]
There will also be methods of moving stat blocks around but this won't necessarily be an easy task.[35][31]

The most recent link is from 2011
https://youtube.com/watch?v=FkWLLLOlm2E&t=3178s

Yes, all this stuff is basically trivial, if you build it up from the bottom.

For example, TL's installed basis is able to go upwards a full five steps of complexity over the next 2 years if they want it to, and easily match what Ashes is offering. The question is almost always if the playerbase will want that, and that's pretty much what this thread is about.

"We haven't seen the same type of base from Ashes yet as we've seen in TL."

But we don't need to care about that, it's easy to do. The 'confusing' part, for someone like OP, is 'why isn't it already done when it's so easy to do?' and getting a bit 'agitated' because of it.

No big deal though, things are working.

AoC lists as inspiration
Star Wars Galaxies with its crafting systems.[1]

I've not played it but I've seen SWG mentioned before as a good example. Was it complex?

I have no good answer regarding where complexity should be to allow or prevent easy stat adjustments. NPCs seem to do the crafting after we do it once and those quotes are somewhat old. Maybe stats adjustment is similar and finding freeholds and crafting stations in nodes and transporting materials will be difficult.

Songcaller

SWG was very customisable and one of the best crafting systems pre combat upgrade 2. It was the SWG references that got me to invest. I imagine Steven and the team will not kill ashes in the same way Sony killed SWG.

Azherae

Otr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

Songcaller wrote: »

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Songcaller wrote: »

I keep seeing weapons and accessories being shown. There is no reason to my knowledge why all armour and accessories can be enchanted to safe level +5 and I bet such an approach would reach soft cap long before the weapon has a chance.

Is there any reason for you to believe that literally every item type can have phys or mage power stat on it?

I'd personally hope that is NOT the case, for the exact reason you stated. If any item can be given any stat - items have no inherent value. I sure as fuck hope that is not the case, cause what's the point of farming for shit if you can just craft the most basic item with the stat you want and then just enchant it higher. That'd be waaaaay too stupid of a design.

Not sure how to respond. If we cam use any weapon we need the ability to select the best stats for the build on our toons. I still believe hybrid will suck for the reasons you mentioned and on top of that crofters can not change all stats on a piece of gear. The further I go down the rabbit whole the more I feel I've been conned out of 3000 quid of packages and cosmetics because the more that is revealed the more mirroring I am seeing.

Crafters will be able to assign different skills/abilities and stats on gear.[31][32]

Crafters will be able to 'rejigger' stat blocks; and there will be a couple of other ways to move things around to create both the look and the stat block that you're looking for. It's not always going to be easy. There will be a lot of challenges involved with that. But the goal is to give you guys the option to customize your gear the way you want them to be.[31] – Jeffrey Bard

Master crafters will be able to influence several (but not all) stats on their crafted items.[31][33]
Stats on crafted items will vary based on the item's rarity.[34]
There will also be methods of moving stat blocks around but this won't necessarily be an easy task.[35][31]

The most recent link is from 2011
https://youtube.com/watch?v=FkWLLLOlm2E&t=3178s

Yes, all this stuff is basically trivial, if you build it up from the bottom.

For example, TL's installed basis is able to go upwards a full five steps of complexity over the next 2 years if they want it to, and easily match what Ashes is offering. The question is almost always if the playerbase will want that, and that's pretty much what this thread is about.

"We haven't seen the same type of base from Ashes yet as we've seen in TL."

But we don't need to care about that, it's easy to do. The 'confusing' part, for someone like OP, is 'why isn't it already done when it's so easy to do?' and getting a bit 'agitated' because of it.

No big deal though, things are working.

AoC lists as inspiration
Star Wars Galaxies with its crafting systems.[1]

I've not played it but I've seen SWG mentioned before as a good example. Was it complex?

I have no good answer regarding where complexity should be to allow or prevent easy stat adjustments. NPCs seem to do the crafting after we do it once and those quotes are somewhat old. Maybe stats adjustment is similar and finding freeholds and crafting stations in nodes and transporting materials will be difficult.

I'll try to outline it briefly.

I'll reference the TL stuff because it's a really solid point, and my data indicates that you prefer those.

I mentioned the Heavenly Arbiter Attire, I'm not going to link it because I don't want to confuse anyone with abstractions.

It is made from three components and a Recipe. the three components are 'Thread, Magic Powder, and Magic Crystal.

It can have one of the following Traits when you craft it (it can fit 3 traits total, but that doesn't matter to this example):
Magic Endurance
Magic Evasion
Mana Regen
Max Mana
Melee Endurance
Melee Evasion

It also has some base stats that it always has because it is Heavenly Arbiter Attire. So there's the stats that are from what it is, and the stats that are RNG when crafted.

In a game like Ashes or SWG, the second set of stats would not need to be RNG.

You might have the choice of using 'Light Mana Channeling Thread', 'Tough Reinforced Thread', or just normal Thread.

Imagine that using Light Mana Channeling Thread would cause the trait of the completed gear to have the Max Mana trait, and using Tough Reinforced Thread would cause it to have Melee Endurance trait.

The base stats of Heavenly Arbiter Attire would still be there, and be the same every time.

To me, this isn't complex, but for some people, it's complex.

You could make it more complex by having a Crafter build up experience with making Heavenly Arbiter Attire, for example 'experience in adding a Trait'. For example, if the crafter could not control the outcome perfectly even if they used Light Mana Channeling Thread, and they had a 50/50 chance of getting either Max Mana or Mana Regen, maybe that Crafter could have a skill or experience which allows them to choose or change the chances.

But the Heavenly Arbiter Attire would still only have the same six Trait options (for example, there is no Max Health option on it, and there are no materials used to construct it that could give Max Health). And whatever its base stats or abilities are would be the same.

Caeryl

‘Can use’ does not mean it’s going to be a good choice for your class. That seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding in the intro post and in these later posts too.

A ranger can equip a spell book, but they won’t make good use of it because it doesn’t synergize with a ranger’s skill set.

A tank could pick up DW daggers but then they don’t have strong defenses anymore.

As for upgrading, literally why would you not want better stats on gear that synergies well with your class and preferred play style? It’s straight vertical power when you’ve already hit the horizontal power/comfort you prefer.

Otr

Azherae wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

Songcaller wrote: »

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Songcaller wrote: »

I keep seeing weapons and accessories being shown. There is no reason to my knowledge why all armour and accessories can be enchanted to safe level +5 and I bet such an approach would reach soft cap long before the weapon has a chance.

Is there any reason for you to believe that literally every item type can have phys or mage power stat on it?

I'd personally hope that is NOT the case, for the exact reason you stated. If any item can be given any stat - items have no inherent value. I sure as fuck hope that is not the case, cause what's the point of farming for shit if you can just craft the most basic item with the stat you want and then just enchant it higher. That'd be waaaaay too stupid of a design.

Not sure how to respond. If we cam use any weapon we need the ability to select the best stats for the build on our toons. I still believe hybrid will suck for the reasons you mentioned and on top of that crofters can not change all stats on a piece of gear. The further I go down the rabbit whole the more I feel I've been conned out of 3000 quid of packages and cosmetics because the more that is revealed the more mirroring I am seeing.

Crafters will be able to assign different skills/abilities and stats on gear.[31][32]

Crafters will be able to 'rejigger' stat blocks; and there will be a couple of other ways to move things around to create both the look and the stat block that you're looking for. It's not always going to be easy. There will be a lot of challenges involved with that. But the goal is to give you guys the option to customize your gear the way you want them to be.[31] – Jeffrey Bard

Master crafters will be able to influence several (but not all) stats on their crafted items.[31][33]
Stats on crafted items will vary based on the item's rarity.[34]
There will also be methods of moving stat blocks around but this won't necessarily be an easy task.[35][31]

The most recent link is from 2011
https://youtube.com/watch?v=FkWLLLOlm2E&t=3178s

Yes, all this stuff is basically trivial, if you build it up from the bottom.

For example, TL's installed basis is able to go upwards a full five steps of complexity over the next 2 years if they want it to, and easily match what Ashes is offering. The question is almost always if the playerbase will want that, and that's pretty much what this thread is about.

"We haven't seen the same type of base from Ashes yet as we've seen in TL."

But we don't need to care about that, it's easy to do. The 'confusing' part, for someone like OP, is 'why isn't it already done when it's so easy to do?' and getting a bit 'agitated' because of it.

No big deal though, things are working.

AoC lists as inspiration
Star Wars Galaxies with its crafting systems.[1]

I've not played it but I've seen SWG mentioned before as a good example. Was it complex?

I have no good answer regarding where complexity should be to allow or prevent easy stat adjustments. NPCs seem to do the crafting after we do it once and those quotes are somewhat old. Maybe stats adjustment is similar and finding freeholds and crafting stations in nodes and transporting materials will be difficult.

I'll try to outline it briefly.

I'll reference the TL stuff because it's a really solid point, and my data indicates that you prefer those.

I mentioned the Heavenly Arbiter Attire, I'm not going to link it because I don't want to confuse anyone with abstractions.

It is made from three components and a Recipe. the three components are 'Thread, Magic Powder, and Magic Crystal.

It can have one of the following Traits when you craft it (it can fit 3 traits total, but that doesn't matter to this example):
Magic Endurance
Magic Evasion
Mana Regen
Max Mana
Melee Endurance
Melee Evasion

It also has some base stats that it always has because it is Heavenly Arbiter Attire. So there's the stats that are from what it is, and the stats that are RNG when crafted.

In a game like Ashes or SWG, the second set of stats would not need to be RNG.

You might have the choice of using 'Light Mana Channeling Thread', 'Tough Reinforced Thread', or just normal Thread.

Imagine that using Light Mana Channeling Thread would cause the trait of the completed gear to have the Max Mana trait, and using Tough Reinforced Thread would cause it to have Melee Endurance trait.

The base stats of Heavenly Arbiter Attire would still be there, and be the same every time.

To me, this isn't complex, but for some people, it's complex.

You could make it more complex by having a Crafter build up experience with making Heavenly Arbiter Attire, for example 'experience in adding a Trait'. For example, if the crafter could not control the outcome perfectly even if they used Light Mana Channeling Thread, and they had a 50/50 chance of getting either Max Mana or Mana Regen, maybe that Crafter could have a skill or experience which allows them to choose or change the chances.

But the Heavenly Arbiter Attire would still only have the same six Trait options (for example, there is no Max Health option on it, and there are no materials used to construct it that could give Max Health). And whatever its base stats or abilities are would be the same.

Thanks for the details.
This sounds similar to Guild Wars 2. They had 3 final components which players had to craft from different resources
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Draconic_Coat#itemct29

I don't like it.

What I would like to is the crafter to not be ready to craft just because he leveled up some skills but a preparation to be needed:
- buffs from other players
- buffs from guild hall
- equipping special gear or getting attuned to it or some complex process (not a simple mouse click)
- the intermediate recipes should not have a clear pattern (like all ending up with 3 components) but multiple intermediate items which you should have them prepared just in case somebody comes and you need them. Like having to keep and organize a lot of junk, like farmers care for their crops.
- the crafting itself should be manual not just give ingredients to an NPC and should involve observing processes, like estimating temperature observing colors, sounds...
- after crafting you should again work to become fit for combat, the reverse of the 3rd step above
If somebody pays you to craft something, they should be happy they are not in your place.

Ludullu

Otr wrote: »

Eventually he mentions active skills too

U rite. I misheard the "that come with those things" part.

Though considering that these active abilties will somehow not influence the gameplay of your archetype, I'm not sure what kind of impact can those even have. Like, even a simple "give this weapon an elemental atk attribute for 30s" active ability would immediately introduce some changes to how you might approach your entire build and gameplay.

Azherae

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

Eventually he mentions active skills too

U rite. I misheard the "that come with those things" part.

Though considering that these active abilties will somehow not influence the gameplay of your archetype, I'm not sure what kind of impact can those even have. Like, even a simple "give this weapon an elemental atk attribute for 30s" active ability would immediately introduce some changes to how you might approach your entire build and gameplay.

Still, it's not uncommon, I feel like TL has gear that has either 'the equivalent of entire active skills' or 'Augments to skills that are so meaningful that they might as well be new active Skills'.

It's semi-popular in ARPGs like Diablo and POE as well, so I'm not surprised that Intrepid is considering it too.

It's just one more cell in the balance spreadsheet, after all, and in a weapon-agnostic game where you have to make all the animations anyway, no change in effort.

Child Item