Problems of Creation Part 1: Race Distrubution Disparity

This is not a new problem. Certain races are more popular then others. The typical order is Humans, Elves, Dwarfs, others.

Moving on, this has been a relatively minor problem with other games due to:

1.) Most games have factions and even if one race has more people the totality of the races within a given faction usually equal out.

2.) The game doesn't have races so no racial disparity could ever occur.

Okay, why is this a bigger problem for AoC then? Well because many things are tied to Node progression, and node progression is tied to time investment. This means if you want to craft something and your node doesn't have access to the necessary systems you are either out of luck, have to wait till the node upgrades, or move to an area that does have access to the whatever system your trying to access. Some people might stay and try to level up the node more quickly by grinding, but most will opt to just head to the closest city that has access to the stuff they need. And given the already weighted race distribution you will see Human and Elf cities growing even faster. This will leave Orc and Dwarf "Cities" floundering because none of their slave nodes will get built up slowing their progress even more. This will end up becoming a feedback loop causing more people to leave their starting area so on and so forth.

This is undoubtably a problem, but there are some possible solutions, any one of these will not completely solve the problem but 2 or 3 of them together might even things out enough that is becomes less of an issue.

1.) Give better racial abilities to the less popular races.
(while this is effective it has 2 issues. First AoC has said they will not have racial abilities. Second having clearly better racials will piss people off)

2.) Base the amount of XP needed to advance a node on the number of people contributing to the node. (This is probably the worst solution because when people figure this out, and they will, they will be livid more so then anything else.)

3.) Give extra node experience in certain biomes based on race selection. (E.G Vaelune give extra node experience while in deserts.)

4.) Change the portals from race based to just pick what you want.

5.) lower the node level needed for progression in related systems

This was not supposed to post as is, I intended on clarifying a few things, but given that it posted and I can do nothing to change that ill just roll with this as best I can.

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Comments

Gizban

/s

Fixed.

bloodprophet

Number 4 is already a thing. Anyone can go through any of the portals.

Is this really a concern though?
If the node your in doesn't have what you need, you travel to the one that does. Kind of like real life before the internet and ordering stuff on line.

nerdymilkshake

Yeah, I don't see how this is a problem. If anything, it seems intended as they want you to have to travel to different nodes to accomplish different things, and travel to different zones to find different resources, no?

Besides, having every node be a tier 5 city and having no village or town level nodes would be pretty lame.

BlackBrony

"Orcs are invading us, stop them from becoming citizens, raise taxes!!"
There, now there's even more gameplay!

AirborneBerserker

bloodprophet
wrote:
»
Number 4 is already a thing. Anyone can go through any of the portals.

Yes I see that, must have missed it when reading through the Wiki. Again though there needs to be at least two of those things not just one. the problem with 4 being a thing is that a group of humans can just decide to go through the Dwarven gate and completely take over the Dwarves starting area.

bloodprophet
wrote:
»
Is this really a concern though?

If the node your in doesn't have what you need, you travel to the one that does. Kind of like real life before the internet and ordering stuff on line.

Yes this is a concern, I'm not talking about them just traveling down and getting some mats and traveling back up, they set up shop there because they have access to production systems they don't have access to in their starting area.

It is a concern because the point is to have a Dwarven Empire, Human Empire, Elven Empire, and Orcish Empire. If the Orcs and Dwarves are all abandoning their starting area to move to Human and Elven starting areas then you miss out on that whole part of the world being developed.

nerdymilkshake
wrote:
»
Yeah, I don't see how this is a problem. If anything, it seems intended as they want you to have to travel to different nodes to accomplish different things, and travel to different zones to find different resources, no?

Yes travel not migrate. What I'm talking about is Dwarves moving to Human settlements and staying there. Not moving to a human controlled area and doing some mining then going back.

nerdymilkshake
wrote:
»
Besides, having every node be a tier 5 city and having no village or town level nodes would be pretty lame.

Yes and having only Human and Elf cities would also be lame. That is what I'm getting at here.

BlackBrony
wrote:
»
"Orcs are invading us, stop them from becoming citizens, raise taxes!!"

There, now there's even more gameplay!

lol

Aszkalon

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

Certain races are more popular then others. The typical order is Humans, Elves, Dwarfs, others.

This doesn't really make them stronger, though.

Not if we look at a certain Game called Worst ... ... ... "World" of Warcraft.

Since quite many Years now,
the Faction of living Corpses, zuck-zuck-Gorillas, stoned Tastingo-Trolls and crooked Visages dominates the PvP inside and outside of Battlegrounds oh-so-very often.

While all the "goodlooking" Prince Charmings of Humans, Elves, cool looking Dwarves and freaky Races like Aliens(Draenei) and Werewolves(Worgen) usually get their faces bashed in most of the time.
In Fact, Six to Eight Battlegrounds out of Ten, at times.

And nothing ever changes.

The "many Prince-Charming Alliance-Players" - KEEP. WANTING. to get carried, most of the time. It doesn't matter how often the Horde smacks them silly,

-> they just leave the BG right away when they realise they are outmatched in Skill and Power -> and wait 15 Minutes until they can log in again.

The Horde dominates most Battlegrounds even without a "Pre-Made Group" - and that's it.

" And - NOTHING - ever - changes ".

This Cringe-Festival seems to be constant from around 2017 onward and it's not going anywhere.

I dare say,
if this ... ... ... ... ... should be DIFFERENT ... ... ... ... ... in Ashes of Creation -> then this will be only because the whole Faction- and Game-System in general is different.

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

Okay, why is this a bigger problem for AoC then ?

Well because many things are tied to Node progression, and node progression is tied to time investment.

This means if you want to craft something and your node doesn't have access to the necessary systems you are either out of luck, have to wait till the node upgrades, or move to an area that does have access to the whatever system your trying to access.

And THIS IS - where your Willpower and Backbone and guts will be first tested.

Will You pull through ?
Do You " LOVE " your Node ?

Do You love the Area/Biome where You have settled to be ?
Will you let your Gamer-Soul decide to stay there and struggle to keep helping your Node to Greatness ?

Or will you run away ... ... ?

... ... ... like a quitter. Like a Person who "wants to get carried" - by others ?

Because if you do ... ... ... ... ... ... and if many People do this -> you might end up with the weakest Node Population on the whole Server.

- i am not joking around.

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

Some people might stay and try to level up the node more quickly by grinding, but most will opt to just head to the closest city that has access to the stuff they need.

I am thinking of Craftsman/Artisan-Stations when you say this.

Because with everything else -> Nodes can trade, right ? You can trade with another Node. You must just make sure that your Cargo destined for your own Node - arrives safely.

It means grab your Friends and Weaponry and help your Allies from another Node to defend their Caravan.

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

And given the already weighted race distribution you will see Human and Elf cities growing even faster.

" IF " Humans and Elves are so overly more popular as in other Games and as one thinks they will be.

But do we need to act like this might become a Problem ?

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

This will leave Orc and Dwarf "Cities" floundering because none of their slave nodes will get built up slowing their progress even more.

I wouldn't be so sure yet if Orc Nodes won't be popular. Especially not considering how many Orc-Fans are bustling and romping around in a certain Game called Wors- ... ... ... "World" of Warcraft,

and apparently "many" of these People like PvP. And are very decent at it. I could magine a Ren'kai or Vek' Node (probably more Ren'kai) to be very powerful,
if enough People who are militant Orc Fans, gather there.

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

This will end up becoming a feedback loop causing more people to leave their starting area so on and so forth.

Won't many/enough People leave the starting Area's anyway, if we are honest ?

And will quickly venture into the Wildernesses around ? Knowing that they will meet amazing Wilderness there for the first and only time in Ashes of Creations History,

before Nodes will take the Places where said Wildernesses will be ?

Plus not all People who "leave" an Area - every single time something is not to their liking -> make reliable Allies/fellow Node Citizens somewhere else.

Enough of these People can weaken or even outright "destroy" the Fate and Destiny of a Node, before this Node has even a Chance to rise to Greatness.

ONE SIEGE is enough to de-level or destroy a Node, now isn't that right ?

Imagine You have a dreadful Amount of "Comfort-Players" who shy from any hard Battle - as your Defenders - because all of these were unhappy with some Challenges along their way -> and landed in your Node when it was a Village and it looked the most promising to them.

(LOOOOL),

then, your Node progressed to a Town or a City -> and is facing a MIGHTY, other Node of the same Level as their Opponent for Dominace - of who becomes a Metropolis first.

Then, You come out to fight bravely for your Node and defend it with all of your Might and Willpower and Concentration and you are totally fired up and feel like this is the Battle of your Life and you are fighting and fighting and fighting and fighting to defeat'as'MANY'Enemies'as'possible'AAAANNNND-

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... AAAAANNNND You are "TOTALLY" getting steamrolled completely and 100% one-sidedly into Oblivion and utterly DISINTEGRATED into Oblivion by the Enemy Forces everytime your Face enters their Range for Combat Skills,

because your Node is mostly made out of "Comfort-Players" who just want to craft and fish and Animal-breed/Husbandry in Peace,

while all the skilled and powerful PvP-Badasses were in the other Side/Node that attacked You, (

)
effectively putting You into Chains and on your Knees QUICKLY as you become their Vassal "or else" (

).

I think making Recordings for all the World to see should be MANDATORY for every Node-Siege.

You will see the Battles (AND smackdowns) of the Ages - with this powerful Engine they are still developing and perfecting right now at dear Intrepid.

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

This is undoubtably a problem, but there are some possible solutions, any one of these will not completely solve the problem but 2 or 3 of them together might even things out enough that is becomes less of an issue.

1.) Give better racial abilities to the less popular races.

This was already the most annoying crap during WoW-Vanilla i must say here,

and it won't be any less annoying in Ashes of Creation. Why toning down a Game which could be a perfect Ten ouf of Ten -> to a Seven to Eight, out of Ten ?
Why aiming to manage and get Defeat - out of the jaws of Victory ?

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

2.) Base the amount of XP needed to advance a node on the number of people contributing to the node. (This is probably the worst solution because when people figure this out, and they will, they will be livid more so then anything else.)

And you are absolutely right with this going to piss People off. People don't want to be punished for working together as an effective Workforce from the beginning.

I suspect some trolling here. Because i can not imagine that You actually want to harm the Game.

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

3.) Give extra node experience in certain biomes based on race selection. (E.G Vaelune give extra node experience while in deserts.)

This is very cool, actually. Nikua could have nice Boni at for Example Coastal Nodes in hotter Biomes.

But if you make it for Example so that only Dunir will get noticeable Boni in colder Biomes, then many Dwarf Players will never leave the Icy Mountains or snowy Forest Biomes.

Sounds cool,
but can backfire badly.

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

4.) Change the portals from race based to just pick what you want.

I don't think having to run over the Map for One or Two Hours will stop "ANY" Player with a certain Race to play anywhere that Player wants.

If Kae'lar Humans for Example would start only and always in the Kae'lar Riverlands -> i don't think it will ever stop them for aiming for every other Biome if just enough Players of them want that.
Same for every other Race.

Depraved

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

This is not a new problem. Certain races are more popular then others. The typical order is Humans, Elves, Dwarfs, others.

Moving on, this has been a relatively minor problem with other games due to:

1.) Most games have factions and even if one race has more people the totality of the races within a given faction usually equal out.

2.) The game doesn't have races so no racial disparity could ever occur.

Okay, why is this a bigger problem for AoC then? Well because many things are tied to Node progression, and node progression is tied to time investment. This means if you want to craft something and your node doesn't have access to the necessary systems you are either out of luck, have to wait till the node upgrades, or move to an area that does have access to the whatever system your trying to access. Some people might stay and try to level up the node more quickly by grinding, but most will opt to just head to the closest city that has access to the stuff they need. And given the already weighted race distribution you will see Human and Elf cities growing even faster. This will leave Orc and Dwarf "Cities" floundering because none of their slave nodes will get built up slowing their progress even more. This will end up becoming a feedback loop causing more people to leave their starting area so on and so forth.

This is undoubtably a problem, but there are some possible solutions, any one of these will not completely solve the problem but 2 or 3 of them together might even things out enough that is becomes less of an issue.

1.) Give better racial abilities to the less popular races.
(while this is effective it has 2 issues. First AoC has said they will not have racial abilities. Second having clearly better racials will piss people off)

2.) Base the amount of XP needed to advance a node on the number of people contributing to the node. (This is probably the worst solution because when people figure this out, and they will, they will be livid more so then anything else.)

3.) Give extra node experience in certain biomes based on race selection. (E.G Vaelune give extra node experience while in deserts.)

4.) Change the portals from race based to just pick what you want.

5.) lower the node level needed for progression in related systems

This was not supposed to post as is, I intended on clarifying a few things, but given that it posted and I can do nothing to change that ill just roll with this as best I can.

afaik, the race that "owns" the node won't have any effects on what stations you can have on that node or things you can craft. everything is purely cosmetics.

also, most games don't have races locked in factions.

so not problem ;3

Liniker

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Racial_influences

AirborneBerserker

Depraved wrote: »

afaik, the race that "owns" the node won't have any effects on what stations you can have on that node or things you can craft. everything is purely cosmetics.

also, most games don't have races locked in factions.

so not problem ;3

That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm saying that you are likely to see 35-40% Humans and 15-20% Dwarves. Which means the Human Cities are going to grow twice as fast as the Dwarf cities. This means the Human settlements will have access to systems that Dwarves don't, so Dwarven crafters migrate to the Human area so they can further their crafting. This further slows the Dwarf settlement growth. That will cause more Dwarf players to leave the Dwarf area and move to the Human area. If that keeps happening then you will get a situation where the Dwarven cities never develop because you do not have enough people in the Dwarf area to advance the nodes.

Gruntag

tldr

Ren'Kai to rule them all!

Caeryl

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

afaik, the race that "owns" the node won't have any effects on what stations you can have on that node or things you can craft. everything is purely cosmetics.

also, most games don't have races locked in factions.

so not problem ;3

That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm saying that you are likely to see 35-40% Humans and 15-20% Dwarves. Which means the Human Cities are going to grow twice as fast as the Dwarf cities. This means the Human settlements will have access to systems that Dwarves don't, so Dwarven crafters migrate to the Human area so they can further their crafting. This further slows the Dwarf settlement growth. That will cause more Dwarf players to leave the Dwarf area and move to the Human area. If that keeps happening then you will get a situation where the Dwarven cities never develop because you do not have enough people in the Dwarf area to advance the nodes.

Node progression comes from ALL exp earned in that node's ZOI, the racial contributions only affect the aesthetics of the node as it progresses.

So if one node has a general racial split of 30-30-40 (human-elf-dwarf) then the node will take on the dwarven aesthetics once the combined exp gained reaches what's needed to level up.

Another node having the same combined exp but a racial split of 80-10-10 (human-elf-dwarf) will take on human aesthetics, but it isn't going to grow any faster than the dwarven aesthetic node.

Garrtok

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

afaik, the race that "owns" the node won't have any effects on what stations you can have on that node or things you can craft. everything is purely cosmetics.

also, most games don't have races locked in factions.

so not problem ;3

That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm saying that you are likely to see 35-40% Humans and 15-20% Dwarves. Which means the Human Cities are going to grow twice as fast as the Dwarf cities. This means the Human settlements will have access to systems that Dwarves don't, so Dwarven crafters migrate to the Human area so they can further their crafting. This further slows the Dwarf settlement growth. That will cause more Dwarf players to leave the Dwarf area and move to the Human area. If that keeps happening then you will get a situation where the Dwarven cities never develop because you do not have enough people in the Dwarf area to advance the nodes.

That's not how the game works.

RocketFarmer

Would kind of be nice if not all of the buildings stay to a single theme and that the ratio of races add to the aesthetics, or at least the option to do so. Having a dwarven pub or smithy in a human town would be cool.

I also think IRL the aesthetics and materials of a place more often relate to the resources in the area. Architecture should follow. Would be a very sad dwarf indeed to live so far from his beloved stone.

AirborneBerserker

Garrtok wrote: »

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

afaik, the race that "owns" the node won't have any effects on what stations you can have on that node or things you can craft. everything is purely cosmetics.

also, most games don't have races locked in factions.

so not problem ;3

That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm saying that you are likely to see 35-40% Humans and 15-20% Dwarves. Which means the Human Cities are going to grow twice as fast as the Dwarf cities. This means the Human settlements will have access to systems that Dwarves don't, so Dwarven crafters migrate to the Human area so they can further their crafting. This further slows the Dwarf settlement growth. That will cause more Dwarf players to leave the Dwarf area and move to the Human area. If that keeps happening then you will get a situation where the Dwarven cities never develop because you do not have enough people in the Dwarf area to advance the nodes.

That's not how the game works.

No that's how people work.

Lodrig

Questions, is it know if a Nodes building type will be subject to change WITHOUT a level up? Say if the node has become level capped to to vassalization to another node, experience still gets generated and the race contributing to that experience would still presumably be tracked. If that Experience mix shifts sufficiently will the Node be 'remodeled' to the new apearance? Will such a change be mandatory or an option of the mayor? When a Node is upgrading dose it look only at the Experience ratios for experience since the last upgrade or is the whole history of it's upgrading count? Is the current Node style inducing any kind of Inertia, such that if old racial majority being at or near a tie with the new it will not flipp untill say for example the new majority were 20% more then the old majority? Is their a cooldown to how rapidly the architectural style can change?

SmileGurney

BlackBrony wrote: »

"Orcs are invading us, stop them from becoming citizens, raise taxes!!"
There, now there's even more gameplay!

If you elect me as your mayor, I promise to build a wall and make orcs pay for it. /s

Do we even know if picking a race is going to predetermine your starting location?

bloodprophet

No.
You can enter through one of the four portal's.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Starting_areas

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