What is the advantage of choosing the same archetype as class?

What do I gain by going Ranger/Ranger as opposed to going Ranger/Fighter or Ranger/Mage?

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check back near phase 3 of alpha2 cause we have no clue how archtypes work and phase 3 is when a couple classes seems to get them

Hinotori

WumpusAmungus wrote: »

What do I gain by going Ranger/Ranger as opposed to going Ranger/Fighter or Ranger/Mage?

You become a ranger squared. Aka... a powered ranger

Spif

The same kind of advantage that you would get by going Ranger/Mage instead of Ranger/Fighter. As far as we know, each secondary has 4 augment schools and it's access to specific augments that modify base Ranger skills.

Of course, we know very little about the augment schools that a class will provide, and even less about what each augment school will do. The teasers for mage secondaries were: fire, lightning, frost and teleport augments IIRC

Blip

Hinotori wrote: »

WumpusAmungus wrote: »

What do I gain by going Ranger/Ranger as opposed to going Ranger/Fighter or Ranger/Mage?

You become a ranger squared. Aka... a powered ranger

Go! Go! Powerrangers!

Songcaller

Hinotori wrote: »

WumpusAmungus wrote: »

What do I gain by going Ranger/Ranger as opposed to going Ranger/Fighter or Ranger/Mage?

You become a ranger squared. Aka... a powered ranger

Haha. Looks like they ran out of helmets so the yellow goofball helmet was thrown into the last shots. Either that or its some japenese find and search toon which waves.

Dimitraeos

Veeshan wrote: »

check back near phase 3 of alpha2 cause we have no clue how archtypes work and phase 3 is when a couple classes seems to get them

Pretty much the end of the thread right here lol

Sathrago

Your character explodes in a mix of ash and gore with a pop-up saying " Oops you chose wrong! Thanks for playing!"

Its the most extreme form of risk vs reward.

SmileGurney

I dont think anyone really knows, I'm not convinced even the game designers fully fleshed out those ideas.

I would imagine by doubling down on your archetype will most likely make you even better at your archetype's CORE role.

Lodrig

You get the 4 augment options to apply to your skills.

I've said for a long time that I think trying to make augments for a secondary archetype that are good for both applying to that same base archeype AND onto others will not be feasable and that augment sets will need to be customized to each of the 64 classes. While this would SEEM like a lot more work it's really not. The same number of Skill/augment combinations still exist.

Hutchy1989

Mage/Mage will probably turn single element abilities into duo element abilities.

When we know what each archetype offers as augments it will probably be as simplistic as that.

Aszkalon

WumpusAmungus wrote: »

What is the advantage of choosing the same archetype as class ?

Probably stronger Abilities of your same, original Archetype/Class.

Probably better/longer-lasting/superior Stealth as a Rogue,
probably better/stronger/further Shots as a Ranger,

probably being EVEN MORE tanky/sturdy as a Tank,
probably slice and dice even more capable as a Fighter or a Rogue, (<- DoubleRogue is "Assassin")

More blinking/teleporting as a Mage ? Faster Casting-Time ? Cooldowns reduced how often You can spam an Icy-Storm, thicc Fireballs - or Lighting-Spells ??

Strongest Heals ever as a Cleric who choose Cleric as secondary Archetype as well ??

I could imagine that it enhances and strengthens what You already have.

Rippley

The short answer is we don't know yet. But IMHO that's a good thing because it means we have an opportunity to advocate for the implementation of a better system.

Personally, I think it makes sense for the double-down archetypes to provide advantageous stat distributions. The original idea for archetypes (I don't know if this is still the case) was that your stats would be modified by your archetype. For example;

Fighter: +20% STR/-30% INT/+0% AGI/+10% CON
Ranger: -20%STR/10%INT/+20% AGI/-10% CON

If you go RANGER/FIGHTER your stats now look like this;

Strider: +10%STR/-30%INT/+20%Agi/+0%CON

But if you go RANGER/RANGER your stats look like this;

Hawkeye: -20%STR/+20%INT/+30%AGi/-20%CON

So you take on bigger penalties to the stats you don't really use as a Ranger, but in return you gain a bigger bonus to the stats that you really want. If you want to play the quintessential Ranged Ranger, the Hawkeye gives you ultra-specialization at the cost of durability and utility.

However, if you want to play a hybrid Ranger that has some ability to dish out damage in melee and is a little more durable, the Strider still gives you a better stat spread for building that type of character.

Azherae

Rippley wrote: »

The short answer is we don't know yet. But IMHO that's a good thing because it means we have an opportunity to advocate for the implementation of a better system.

Personally, I think it makes sense for the double-down archetypes to provide advantageous stat distributions. The original idea for archetypes (I don't know if this is still the case) was that your stats would be modified by your archetype. For example;

Fighter: +20% STR/-30% INT/+0% AGI/+10% CON
Ranger: -20%STR/10%INT/+20% AGI/-10% CON

If you go RANGER/FIGHTER your stats now look like this;

Strider: +10%STR/-30%INT/+20%Agi/+0%CON

But if you go RANGER/RANGER your stats look like this;

Hawkeye: -20%STR/+20%INT/+30%AGi/-20%CON

So you take on bigger penalties to the stats you don't really use as a Ranger, but in return you gain a bigger bonus to the stats that you really want. If you want to play the quintessential Ranged Ranger, the Hawkeye gives you ultra-specialization at the cost of durability and utility.

However, if you want to play a hybrid Ranger that has some ability to dish out damage in melee and is a little more durable, the Strider still gives you a better stat spread for building that type of character.

And I, in turn, will disagree with this one.

I don't think that stat distributions are the way to go here, even if they're easier to understand, because they're not as controllable, and they're 'too easy to understand' in a way that would probably be either misleading or meta.

But, with the current combat style of Ashes, I can see why it might be difficult to actually use the doubled-down augments properly.

I'll continue to hope that specialization can be achieved in the same way that we've seen in the past, where empowerment against defenses is the thing you get, making the character more consistent at doing the single thing they want to do against varying targets.

Stat buffing doesn't innately do this, and in my opinion/experience, often fails terribly at it, leading to unpleasant (imo) gameplay.

Rippley

Ranger is one of the archetypes where I find it really easy to imagine OTHER archetypes augmenting THEM, but comparatively difficult to imagine what THEIR augments would look like on other classes.

I suppose Ranger augments could be applied to a melee ability and turn it into a ranged ability or increase the range or area of effect of certain abilities. But how would that work with Ranger/Ranger?

Azherae

Rippley wrote: »

Ranger is one of the archetypes where I find it really easy to imagine OTHER archetypes augmenting THEM, but comparatively difficult to imagine what THEIR augments would look like on other classes.

I suppose Ranger augments could be applied to a melee ability and turn it into a ranged ability or increase the range or area of effect of certain abilities. But how would that work with Ranger/Ranger?

Interestingly I again feel the exact opposite, because the 'Carry' itemization options in MOBAs (Predecessor being the main one that comes to mind) are almost always the ones most flexibly 'inserted' into basically any other attack build.

And I'm not necessarily talking about the simple 'hit harder' or 'attack faster' ones either, though obviously, debuffing against damage or getting Penetration options would suit every Ranger player I can think of, while still not requiring it to be Ranged (and then it could be Ranged whenever that was suitable).

Also, Rangers might get 'retreating mobility' or 'certain CC types' in the Augment space. It would be best for everyone, I think, if specific types of CC could be restricted to certain Archetypes, Augment wise.

e.g. Tanks have Knockbacks, Fighters have Slows/Staggers, Rangers have Snares and Roots, Rogues have Detargeting and punish-bleeds.

Rippley

Azherae wrote: »

Rippley wrote: »

Ranger is one of the archetypes where I find it really easy to imagine OTHER archetypes augmenting THEM, but comparatively difficult to imagine what THEIR augments would look like on other classes.

I suppose Ranger augments could be applied to a melee ability and turn it into a ranged ability or increase the range or area of effect of certain abilities. But how would that work with Ranger/Ranger?

Interestingly I again feel the exact opposite, because the 'Carry' itemization options in MOBAs (Predecessor being the main one that comes to mind) are almost always the ones most flexibly 'inserted' into basically any other attack build.

And I'm not necessarily talking about the simple 'hit harder' or 'attack faster' ones either, though obviously, debuffing against damage or getting Penetration options would suit every Ranger player I can think of, while still not requiring it to be Ranged (and then it could be Ranged whenever that was suitable).

Also, Rangers might get 'retreating mobility' or 'certain CC types' in the Augment space. It would be best for everyone, I think, if specific types of CC could be restricted to certain Archetypes, Augment wise.

e.g. Tanks have Knockbacks, Fighters have Slows/Staggers, Rangers have Snares and Roots, Rogues have Detargeting and punish-bleeds.

So if Rangers already have snares and roots, what would a RANGER augment on a RANGER look like to you?

Lodrig

I've always said that augments as described will not work well for BOTH, similar and disimilar base and secondary archetypes. Either different sets of augments need to exist for the 'pure' classes or the whole system needs to be rethought.

Azherae

Rippley wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Rippley wrote: »

Ranger is one of the archetypes where I find it really easy to imagine OTHER archetypes augmenting THEM, but comparatively difficult to imagine what THEIR augments would look like on other classes.

I suppose Ranger augments could be applied to a melee ability and turn it into a ranged ability or increase the range or area of effect of certain abilities. But how would that work with Ranger/Ranger?

Interestingly I again feel the exact opposite, because the 'Carry' itemization options in MOBAs (Predecessor being the main one that comes to mind) are almost always the ones most flexibly 'inserted' into basically any other attack build.

And I'm not necessarily talking about the simple 'hit harder' or 'attack faster' ones either, though obviously, debuffing against damage or getting Penetration options would suit every Ranger player I can think of, while still not requiring it to be Ranged (and then it could be Ranged whenever that was suitable).

Also, Rangers might get 'retreating mobility' or 'certain CC types' in the Augment space. It would be best for everyone, I think, if specific types of CC could be restricted to certain Archetypes, Augment wise.

e.g. Tanks have Knockbacks, Fighters have Slows/Staggers, Rangers have Snares and Roots, Rogues have Detargeting and punish-bleeds.

So if Rangers already have snares and roots, what would a RANGER augment on a RANGER look like to you?

My expectation would be that most Ranger abilities don't Snare or Root, a few do relatively powerful Snares/Roots.

Then the others would be able to be augmented with weaker Snares/Roots, and the ones that already have it could be enhanced to be slightly more powerful/longer duration Snares/Roots. That's what I'd expect from doubling down.

Applying the Snare/Root 'augment' to an ability that only affects the Ranger could be applied as something that gives the Ranger a status which causes the enemy to be snared/rooted after attacking them a certain number of times within a specific time period.

The latter is an example of the sort of thing I feel could be applied to many neutral or defensive abilities across many clases. You would just know that /Rangers in general have 'Brambles' or whatever and if you try to hit them and they heal/buff/pop a defensive ability, that you're going to be rooted or snared if you keep attacking them.

insomnia

I think Steven talked about it some years ago. But I can't remember the example

nanfoodle

This is the real problem no one really knows how this augment system is going to work. We've been given examples but nothing practical to Digest.

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