Fixing the Class system

The goal is to change the class system while keeping as much of Steven's vision intact as possible and allowing enough flexibility for the devs to develop something that inspires them without pressuring them to develop something that doesn't while allowing for more design space later on to add new classes or sub classes.

1.) Change the language to first class picked as being the base class, and make it clear this will be your playstyle. The second class could be either archtype or secondary class, though secondary class would be more clear. Call the result of those two decisions the Sub-Class. (I will be using this terminology from here on out)

2.) Remove the double up sub-classes (Ranger/Ranger, Fighter/Fighter). While an interesting idea it only serves to make people feel like stuff was withheld from them when they selected their class, and inflate an already huge number of sub-classes.

3.) Remove any subclass that would be a nightmare to balance or would be redundant either by base classes or other sub classes.

4.) Add more base classes. You have no Gish class (hybrid caster and melee), No Dark/Evil caster, No Holy Warrior, No Druid/Nature caster, no Monk/Brawler class.

5.) Armor/Weapon restrictions determined by base class and sometimes modified by the secondary class either unlocking or locking out different armor/weapon types.(I'll give an example at the end)

6.) Either reduce the level at which you get your secondary class or you should get 1 major passive change/active ability to you class when you make the choice at 25.(I'll give an example at the end)

The Cons:

1.) Less subclasses, like way less, like going from 8 to 3 or 4, this depends on how many base classes they add if any

2.) Longer development time, this also depends on how many base classes they add

3.) I can't think of anything else right now but I'm sure I'm missing at least a few

The Pros:

1.) More possible sub-classes means more design space.

2.) More design space means less design pressure.

3.) More playstyles at the start means more people can find something they like until they get what they want.

Example:

Base Class: Rogue
Secondary Class: Necromancer
Sub-Class name: Edge Lord
Armor: From Medium to Light
Weapon: Unlocks Dual short swords
Active ability: Become incorporeal reducing physical damage taken but increasing magic damage taken. The first creature attacked from stealth cowers in fear for X seconds.

So this feels like a huge change but it isn't. The playstyle is exactly the same, with one ability which could replace a stun with cower mechanic. Visually I'm thinking something like Nocturne from LoL. So more like a Dementor with blades for arms, and much faster.

Edit for clarification: I want to make it clear all I am suggesting is a focus shift to more base classes to facilitate more playstyles at launch, creating some kind of class identity, and make some language changes which will clarify things to most people.

I realize most of you are looking at this as a game that will launch in 2-4 years. That's not what I'm thinking about. I'm thinking about 3 months after launch when most people are max level, what a new player experience will be. That's where I am coming from. The game MUST be able to stand on its own no help. They will have no friends to help them, there will be no guides, and what you don't want is someone forcing themselves to play a playstyle for 100 hours only to find out they only get a few aesthetic changes and not the playstyle change they were expecting.

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George_Black

Azherae wrote: »

Lodrig wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

You lost me.
And I'm not sure what you mean by "only change it 10%".
If a Mage Teleport applied to my Fighter's Rush allows me to blink past a Wall that would otherwise impede me, that significantly changes my tactics. A quantifier like 10% seems to be meaningless.
I'd definitely prefer some other Mage-like stuff to place on my other Active Skills, than a Teleport.
I dunno how a Teleport Augment is supposed to help augment my Battle Cry.

Your being willfully ignorant if you can't understand this.

And your example is emblematic of lazy thinking. You have to postulate a SPECIFC enemy countermeasure produced by 1 opposing archetype for limited time under which a teleport augmented Blitz would seemingly play ANY different then the base Blitz. To call this reaching is an understatement.

No player worth their salt would call that a meaningful change to tactics let alone playstyle because once you think about it for more then a second you remember the barrier is still present and your now trapped and cut off from team mates so in even in your hypothetical 90% of the time you ain't gonna teleport through said wall because you have no escape path. Your still a Fighter with a gap closer which is gonna feel exactly the same as every other fighter, that's what 10% change is, something you don't even need to relearn or alter your play around.

I'm no fan of that example from Steven either, but if we just discount the difference between two skills that both gap close but differently, then we might as well just downgrade all expectations of all the combat.

See, this is some kind of logic that I cant dress as deserved because then peoples feelings can get hurt.

Here you have people telling you that the promised "play as you want" wont provide meaningful variety, and that the meta will be narrow and they want to discuss new ways forward.

Your response is "leave it as it is and dont discount it even though it looks that way. And dont discuss things that are not tested yet. It's not valid feedbackEven. Though. It looks. That way."

Why let the system fail and then lead to delays?

AirborneBerserker

George_Black wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Lodrig wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

You lost me.
And I'm not sure what you mean by "only change it 10%".
If a Mage Teleport applied to my Fighter's Rush allows me to blink past a Wall that would otherwise impede me, that significantly changes my tactics. A quantifier like 10% seems to be meaningless.
I'd definitely prefer some other Mage-like stuff to place on my other Active Skills, than a Teleport.
I dunno how a Teleport Augment is supposed to help augment my Battle Cry.

Your being willfully ignorant if you can't understand this.

And your example is emblematic of lazy thinking. You have to postulate a SPECIFC enemy countermeasure produced by 1 opposing archetype for limited time under which a teleport augmented Blitz would seemingly play ANY different then the base Blitz. To call this reaching is an understatement.

No player worth their salt would call that a meaningful change to tactics let alone playstyle because once you think about it for more then a second you remember the barrier is still present and your now trapped and cut off from team mates so in even in your hypothetical 90% of the time you ain't gonna teleport through said wall because you have no escape path. Your still a Fighter with a gap closer which is gonna feel exactly the same as every other fighter, that's what 10% change is, something you don't even need to relearn or alter your play around.

I'm no fan of that example from Steven either, but if we just discount the difference between two skills that both gap close but differently, then we might as well just downgrade all expectations of all the combat.

Why let the system fail and then lead to delays?

Fuck it bro it's just money.

Dygz

Lodrig wrote: »

And your example is emblematic of lazy thinking.

LMFAO
I can no longer take anything you say seriously. Mr. Pot.
(Obviously, if you can blink past Walls and other obstacles, you have several escape paths.)

Lodrig

Dygz wrote: »

LMFAO
I can no longer take anything you say seriously. Mr. Pot.
(Obviously, if you can blink past Walls and other obstacles, you have several escape paths.)

Someone forgot that Blitz only goes towards enemies, and it has a cooldown. See why I call this lazy thinking.

Kilion

Lodrig wrote: »

I think you belive that ROLE is the same as Playstyle/tactics and that Augments will 'preserve the role' what your indicating is that playstyle and tactics will be unaltered.

No what I think is that people are underestimating the impact the (currently expected) augments will make despite being seemingly small. I am quite aware that the Role is not the same as the playstyle. The Core function of augmented skills will remain the same, Steven said as much, but he also said that augments are meant to "blur the lines a bit" between the Archetypes to allow for some adjustments regarding the Rock-Paper-Scissor System (A Mage can account for their weakness against Rangers and Rogues by augmenting their skills with Tank aspects), this allows for situational, new options during fights, but at that core the Mage is still that: A mage.

Lodrig wrote: »

You present and speak of Flavor changes AS IF they were Radical changes because you over interpret the tactical effects of an extra damage proc or buff getting applied ontop of a skill.

I'm just saying what I think will be Intrepids approach to augments and its effects. And correct me if I am wrong: We have nothing PROVING neither me nor you wrong. It's an open question and I don't share the worry that augments will be little more than cosmetics.

So I don't think we are talking past each other, we simply don't agree on what we will get because information is not conclusive on the matter. Which is why I think that there is no "fixing the class system" when nobody can really know whether there is something to fix to begin with.

Lodrig wrote: »

I am asking for and brainstorming playstyle varients for the classes in the light of radical changes and with the intent to create a simple description of that playstyle which synthesises both archetypes. This is healtheir then trying to design augments for an individual skill. See ny Class Fantasy thread for examples, I'd like to produce a description for all 64 classes.

Fair enough, but this is over at your thread and I was primarily concerend with OPs prompt here to "fix" something that we don't even know the workings of. Additionally, I don't think we need short descriptions for every class, which is while I will not grace/taint your thread either.

Lodrig

CROW3 wrote: »

Agreed, with an emphasis for Cleric and Tank. Augments must significantly transform the base archetype or the core of the 8-man team is going to get boring.

I'd like to hear what ideas you have on them in the 'Class Fantay' thread. If your going Ranger do you have a particular secondary in mind and what it could/should do?

I find Cleric is easier to think of varients on because sustainment (a more expansive goal then just heal) is already normally done in so many ways in game (HoT, AoE Heal, single target heal etc) which can then be emphasized and synergized with other activities. Take an existing Cleric kit and just narrow it and your mostly done.

Tank on ther other hand is harder to figure out because they are more dependent on the tight interaction of Taunting, CC and Damage mitigation in order to achive their goal of enemy aggression control. Dodge tanks and Mesmerize tanks are obvious paths that even Intrepid described, but other types get weird. Likewise a Tank secondary can't just be "I have more HP" as, one skills don't give you base stats like that, two it would be super bland, three it would not be tanking as you would exert no control over enemy aggression.

iccer

Lodrig wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

You lost me.
And I'm not sure what you mean by "only change it 10%".
If a Mage Teleport applied to my Fighter's Rush allows me to blink past a Wall that would otherwise impede me, that significantly changes my tactics. A quantifier like 10% seems to be meaningless.
I'd definitely prefer some other Mage-like stuff to place on my other Active Skills, than a Teleport.
I dunno how a Teleport Augment is supposed to help augment my Battle Cry.

Your being willfully ignorant if you can't understand this.

And your example is emblematic of lazy thinking. You have to postulate a SPECIFC enemy countermeasure produced by 1 opposing archetype for limited time under which a teleport augmented Blitz would seemingly play ANY different then the base Blitz. To call this reaching is an understatement.

No player worth their salt would call that a meaningful change to tactics let alone playstyle because once you think about it for more then a second you remember the barrier is still present and your now trapped and cut off from team mates so in even in your hypothetical 90% of the time you ain't gonna teleport through said wall because you have no escape path. Your still a Fighter with a gap closer which is gonna feel exactly the same as every other fighter, that's what 10% change is, something you don't even need to relearn or alter your play around.

I think we first need to set what actually makes an ability different enough from one another.

At its core, teleport and charge are both movement skills that displace your character, and move it to another location. How they do it is very important, and also what's very important are the visuals and sound effects.
You are just downplaying the importance of both things here.

How they do it is important, because something that makes you appear at another location almost instantly, has different implications than something that takes time to reach the target. One can be used to traverse terrain faster, to engage easier and avoid cc, to disengage, etc. allowing you more freedom of movement, because it doesn't require a target necessarily, while the other thing does it slower, maybe requires a target, probably deals damage to the target, etc.

Visuals and sound effects are a huge part of what make the ability feel different and separate from one another, and this is the key part that people seem to downplay when talking about augments. It's more important that the visual and sound effects change, than anything else. This is what will easily distinguish your class from everyone else, and make it unique.

I'm really not sure what you expect, and how do you want to make the ability even more different?

If you expect that augments will change your charge ability, into something completely different, unrelated to the base skill, which offers mobility and displaces your character, then you just have to manage your expectations better, because that's not the aim with this system.

Both abilities are the same at its core, but how they achieve their purpose and how they look and sound is what separates them, just like every other ability in the game.

Tell me, what separates Mage's Blizzard ability, and Fighter's Whirlwind? Both are channeled AoEs that deal damage around your character. By your logic, there is not enough difference between the two.
In reality, visuals are different, Blizzard basically rains down projectiles, while Whirlwind allows you to move while channeling it, damage type and status effects they apply are different, etc..

Dimitraeos

I think Intrepid is inevitably going to either change their original intent for Augments, or downscale them in some way (either by reducing the number of base class skills that are augmentable or seriously reducing the impact of augments).

I think having a smaller pool of augmentable skills is more manageable. That way you can actually make the augments much more impactful and interesting and make tuning more manageable.

If its just going to be a dash of flavor on everything, meh. I'm fine with it either way as long as base class builds are diverse enough through skill trees, weapon and gear builds.

Dygz

Lodrig wrote: »

Someone forgot that Blitz only goes towards enemies, and it has a cooldown. See why I call this lazy thinking.

Apparently you forgot that Blitz is not the only Active Skill on which a Teleport Augment can be placed and that we haven't seen all of the Active Skills that will be available at release and that we also haven't seen any of the Utility Skills.
So... the suggestion that using a Teleport Augment on Blitz or Rush would leave the Fighter without an escape path is the epitome of absurd, paranoid, delusional, lazy thinking.
Especially since there will also be Racial, Social Org, Religion and Node Augments that might also provide alternative paths of escape.

Dygz

Dimitraeos wrote: »

I think Intrepid is inevitably going to either change their original intent for Augments, or downscale them in some way (either by reducing the number of base class skills that are augmentable or seriously reducing the impact of augments).

We'll have to test it and see what they actually do

RedLeader1

Dimitraeos wrote: »

I think Intrepid is inevitably going to either change their original intent for Augments, or downscale them in some way (either by reducing the number of base class skills that are augmentable or seriously reducing the impact of augments).

I think having a smaller pool of augmentable skills is more manageable. That way you can actually make the augments much more impactful and interesting and make tuning more manageable.

If its just going to be a dash of flavor on everything, meh. I'm fine with it either way as long as base class builds are diverse enough through skill trees, weapon and gear builds.

I think that your impression of the "original intent for Augments", is highly subjective. You seem to have interpreted "Flavor" as "Insignificant", which I am not certain is true.

CROW3

Just an observation, and you can take what you will from it. We’ve seen more in game footage on the mayoral system, which very few players will use than footage about secondary archetype augments, which every player will use.

Ludullu

CROW3 wrote: »

Just an observation, and you can take what you will from it. We’ve seen more in game footage on the mayoral system, which very few players will use than footage about secondary archetype augments, which every player will use.

Not just that. Steven pretty much said "well, we do have some kind of plans for them, but we don't really know shit because we haven't even started working on them, cause we need archetypes first".

We haven't heard shit about this HUUUUUGE system. And considering how damn long it'll take to balance-test all of this shit - I am really starting to think that 2030 is not off the table.

George_Black

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

Just an observation, and you can take what you will from it. We’ve seen more in game footage on the mayoral system, which very few players will use than footage about secondary archetype augments, which every player will use.

Not just that. Steven pretty much said "well, we do have some kind of plans for them, but we don't really know shit because we haven't even started working on them, cause we need archetypes first".

We haven't heard shit about this HUUUUUGE system. And considering how damn long it'll take to balance-test all of this shit - I am really starting to think that 2030 is not off the table.

Sweet. Start on unstable foundations on a system proven in other games to be problematic, have forum users critisise discussion on better alternatives, move ahead with said course and then have the same forum users complain about delays and 2030.
Great logic right there. Dont forget to keep parroting "we have to test and see".

Dygz

I mean... they could always just scrap the current design now and give us a WoW clone.

George_Black

Dygz wrote: »

I mean... they could always just scrap the current design now and give us a WoW clone.

Never played wow. Try again.

CROW3

George_Black wrote: »

Never played wow. Try again.

You not having played wow doesn't make it an irrelevant reference in a class discussion.

George_Black

CROW3 wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

Never played wow. Try again.

You not having played wow doesn't make it an irrelevant reference in a class discussion.

It is a fitting reply to an ironic comment, generalizing and stereotyping, trying to downgrade the conversation, implying that people just want their class from another game, when the truth is that people care about the success of the system AoC will develop.

CROW3

George_Black wrote: »

people just want their class from another game, when the truth is that people care about the success of the system AoC will develop.

These aren't necessarily competing interests.

George_Black

CROW3 wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

people just want their class from another game, when the truth is that people care about the success of the system AoC will develop.

These aren't necessarily competing interests.

Never said that

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