What surprised you in the FireBrand fight?
Azherae
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
So, we were told in the stream, before the fight, that FireBrand was going to do something that was surprising.
I want to briefly discuss this separately because I want to calibrate my expectations. I watched the fight pretty carefully, but I can't figure out what Firebrand did, that wasn't entirely just what you would expect.
Now, I know that I'm a Monster Hunter player so I have different ideas, so I ask, for those who mostly only play MMOs or don't play either MMOs or Monster Hunter style games...
What surprised/impressed you about FireBrand's actions or mechanics?
I want to briefly discuss this separately because I want to calibrate my expectations. I watched the fight pretty carefully, but I can't figure out what Firebrand did, that wasn't entirely just what you would expect.
Now, I know that I'm a Monster Hunter player so I have different ideas, so I ask, for those who mostly only play MMOs or don't play either MMOs or Monster Hunter style games...
What surprised/impressed you about FireBrand's actions or mechanics?
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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It doesn't mean its bad of course even more so if you are looking at the level of that kind of boss fight.
When i think Elden ring bayle doesn't do anything special and just does dragon stuff but its very epic feeling to me atleast. But at the same time i don't expect a young dragon to be bringing super epic end game raid boss vibes. Their dragon looked amazing but do to the terming with it being a young dragon i expect other color variants and such and not fully akin to a unique dragon.
*edit of course there are tons of cool things you could add to the fight, but I feel atm we are mainly going to be seeing introduction level bosses (that will have more heavy on the side of gear check difficulty) then more complex mechanics.
Imo there should prob be a few more stronger attacks that it doesn't use very often which will lean towards being able to wipe out zergs (if it uses it more often). And having player bodies making it more difficult to get around and dodge the attack.
So im guessing all mobs need to be attacking everything on sight sense it knows its going to be attacked. So technically if you go into a camp the entire camp should zerg people?
Sometimes i here these kinds of suggestions and they don't seem akin to a mmorpg.
Even in dragons dogma dragons don't attack you instantly just being in sight in far distance.
Resurrect should have like 30 min cd, maybe some talent can make it have 2 charges.
Or it should have no cd but cost 70% of max mana.
If you want more resurrects - put resurrect on Bards. But like in 40 man party you should have like max 10 revives. In this fight we saw like 50 resurrects.
Else the dragon fight was good.
From the citadel i was expecting more. Like the Ancient in the end should be some kind of boss fight.
There should be traps that the fire elements put in the citadel where they can for example reduce healing, stun, or stuff like this.
Maybe put a fire wave moving from the entrance forward that forces everyone to move forward, Getting in touch with the fire wave is instant kill.
Steven had god mode on so he didnt die and had infinite everything so people could view the content + so they didnt wipe.
Unless I missed the actual quest premise, this was a dragon whose egg was just stolen, so it should be much more hostile than normal
The "Body-Slam Attack" where he shortly flew up and then QUICKLY slammed down again to crush a few of his Opponents under his huge Body, cut me off guard.
It is like what the Flying Mount-Dragons from the Node-War could do as well -> but it felt faster.
I hope the "Breath-Attack" gets a bit of a bigger Flame and more glowing Ground. To emphasise Power. But otherwise it was a nice, cool Dragonfight.
Kinda like in WoW. But this here looked quicker and of Course - better, more modern - and more realistic, due to the superior Graphic and "Graphic-Style".
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
As for expecting more from the Citadel, they did state at the beginning that it was the end of the event.
they have said that they are making ashes a relatively hard MMO. and from what I saw today I am overjoyed that they seem to be living up to that promise.
I also really enjoyed the model and animations of Firebrand. personally I'd like the boss to operate at a higher pace. but I'm sure I'll get plenty of hectic high paced fights at higher levels so I'm not fussed about it.
So buckle up when you finally come across a level 50 dragon raid boss 40 people just might not cut it.
I actually quite liked the way it jumped back before it did its breath attack to try and hit as many targets as possible.
However, I did find the dragons use of magic to be surprising. Throughout the raid the dragon would uses physical and breath attacks. So maybe a little more elemental connection to those attacks, the claws apply a bleed and burning. Needs a little more magic. Maybe tail swipe is a pushback with a detonate explosion.
Because the power of the actual magic used was pretty substantial. Summon what looked like 20 elementals. And then use an elemental life steal, or whatever it was, a power drain on those summons to build rage. It seemed the raid was not prepared for that. And even a designer was surprised by I don't believe he got eleven stacks.
It was pretty clear that the raid was done for at that point. Half the raid was wiped out by the follow up enraged dragon attacks. Even Steven Tha God would've been disintegrated in that moment he ran right into the dragons maw and fire.
But for showcase purposes, they were able to recover and succeed.
Since this Firebrand clearly has some powerful magic, it would be neat to see more of that used earlier in the raid. To keep players on their toes because this is a powerful supernatural beast.
I completely agree with this, but I think you are missing an important aspect.
In terms of PvE content, Steven is one of those new players. I'm sure the encounter did things he has never seen before - even if it is only basic mechanics at play to anyone that has run PvE content.
Made me smile that Steven needed to be made unkillable. They would have wiped otherwise. He just kept resing everyone.
Positive impression: breath weapon used both from the ground and as a flying attack. I haven't seen much of this in my limited experience, but I expect it has already been done, at least I hope so.
Minor limited negative impressions: for a creature of this size, its attacks lacked the physical impact one would think come with the weight behind them. Size, not level. For something this big I would expect tail swipes to project those hit some distance, in an ark (those missed could stay in place having ducked below the passing tail). Same with paw attacks, on a smaller scale. When taking flight, everyone in front getting pushed back by the wind generated by the wings. Hard landing making the ground shake, and players lose their footing, going prone if already unstable... That kind of things.
If it's a question of level... maybe size it down?
It could be that the egg is Firebrand's unhatched sibling rather than child or something.
1000 years 'young dragon' is believable enough, for some settings. Going beyond that is a little weird for me personally,
Honestly depending on the familial status of Dragons, i.e. if they form up or have tyrannies or such, I'd think 'my unhatched sibling whose power still shapes the world by flowing out into the Citadel, guarded by my friend and confidant He-Who-Beguiles, has been taken and I will not have it' is pretty believable.
(as a general reminder, I'm not saying this fight needed to be different, I'm just trying to figure out what I missed about it, I play lots of such things so I know that nothing will surprise me, but I have no model of what the team thought would surprise someone except I guess now just Aszkalon giving the WoW player perspective of 'oh hey it has touchdown/crashdown that's neat/surprising!', and I'm not sure if to just assign that as the 'surprising' thing...)
But still curious on what ages dragons are in AoC compared to other games and perhaps their connection to the apocalypse.
Now the other question is do you allow the cultists to break the seal on the vault so that you can enter perhaps a dungeon or instanced area?
That would ruin my awesome headcanon of FireBrand still being a Summoner (as in A1) and friends/allies with He-Who-Beguiles, but I think it's a bit more 'implied' that FireBrand is somehow 'related' to the current state of the POI, right?
A powerful dragon summoner would have just left Flame Elementals around for defense in case of any upstarts trying to disrupt their peaceful home while they were off looking for snacks. But having rewatched it myself, I'm finding myself agreeing with you, unfortunately.
Unless the Cultists are directly FireBrand's followers, rather than having specifically stolen the egg, in which case everything goes back to making perfect sense (and explains why FireBrand didn't come to attack just for the relic being there, but came as soon as all their Flame Elemental guards were extinguished, or whatever).
Either GM powers or respawn location let people just stand up a few meters away from the boss with full hp and mana
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/468590/#Comment_468590
Keep in mind, this was not a showcase of how hard the fight was.
If we assume the fight is actually properly tuned (we don't assume that, because it is not physically possible), and if we assume that it was designed to be actually hard when looked at within the context of all MMORPG raids, then it wouldn't be possible for the developers to beat it with the characters they were using. Not even the classes - the characters.
Anyway, Steven wasn't even the one who said that; that was all Chong. What's with the snarkiness?
I wasn't impressed by the fight either. I think the PvE-enthusiasts at this point have to recognise that they have to restrict their highest expectations to the announced instanced skillcheck encounters.
The main appeal for open world experiences will primarily have to come from mechanics that make PvX more challenging and interesting.
That said, I still have hopes in the team leaning more into gimmicks that might make the fight more basic-looking/predictable, but also more challenging in requiring more strict player coordination. (Not just instadeath effects, but things like damage immunity windows or damage reflections, or massive shield effects for the boss, or requiring specific player skills to break boss casts or effects, etc.)
I don't think Intrepid can handle the combination
of flashy/aesthetically impressive AND difficult/demanding/engaging, so I'm hoping they'll lean more into just making it challenging, without worrying so much about making it look perfect.
I think that's part.of what's holding them back from introducing more advanced mechanics.
1. Combat Dynamics and Challenge Level
Current Observation: While the dragon does engage in some aerial maneuvers and scorches the earth, much of the fight sees it remaining on the ground. This static behavior reduces the threat level and undermines the dragon's inherent aerial advantage.
Suggestion: Dragons, by their very nature, should rarely give up the advantage of flight, particularly in an open battle. The fight could be greatly enhanced by making flight the dragon’s default behavior, with it only coming to ground under specific conditions. For instance, the dragon could stay airborne for the majority of the battle, executing strafing runs with its breath attack and using its wings to create powerful gusts of wind that push players back or disrupt their formations. This would make the fight more dynamic and require players to adapt to a constantly moving target, increasing both the difficulty and the excitement.
2. Introducing Mechanics to Ground the Dragon
Current Observation: Given the dragon's tendency to remain grounded, the fight loses some of its epic potential, especially considering that dragons should be seen as nearly insurmountable challenges without proper preparation.
Suggestion: To justify bringing the dragon to the ground, players should have to employ specific mechanics that force it out of the sky. This could be achieved through the use of siege equipment, as well as other innovative gameplay elements:
Siege Equipment: Players could utilize existing siege weapons, such as ballistae or cannons, to target the dragon while it is airborne. These weapons could be placed around the battlefield and would require coordination to use effectively, adding a layer of strategy to the fight. The siege equipment could be specifically designed to deal significant damage to the dragon's wings, forcing it to land temporarily for repairs or recovery, creating windows of opportunity for melee combat.
Harpoon or Net Launchers: Players could operate large, stationary weapons designed to pull the dragon to the ground, requiring teamwork to operate effectively. These could be spread across the battlefield, forcing the dragon to target and disable them unless the players do so first.
Grounding Spells: Mages or specific classes could be given access to spells or abilities that temporarily disrupt the dragon’s ability to fly, such as grounding sigils or binding chains that tether the dragon to the earth.
Exploiting Weaknesses: The dragon might have vulnerable moments after specific aerial attacks, where it needs to land to recuperate energy or after performing a particularly devastating move. Players could capitalize on these moments to deal more damage or to force the dragon into a vulnerable state on the ground.
3. Enhancing Team Dynamics with Defensive and Collision Mechanics
Current Observation: The dragon’s breath attacks are visually stunning, but they present an opportunity for greater player interaction, especially considering the game’s planned player collision feature.
Suggestion: The use of player collision could enhance the team dynamic during these breath attacks. Tanks could form a physical barrier with their shields, protecting the party from the dragon’s fire breath. This mechanic could be tied to the dragon’s airborne nature, with it swooping down to unleash these attacks, making positioning and timing critical.
Implementation Ideas:
Shield Wall Formation: The game could detect when a certain number of tanks are aligned in a formation, triggering a special defense mode that reduces or blocks incoming damage from the dragon’s breath.
Dynamic Battlefield Changes: The breath attack could also alter the environment, scorching the ground and creating temporary hazards that players must avoid. The use of the shield wall could prevent these hazards from spreading, adding a layer of strategic planning to the encounter.
Interactive Collision Feedback: When the dragon’s fire breath hits the shield wall, it could create a dramatic visual and auditory effect, reinforcing the significance of this team-based defensive maneuver.
These are of course just a few things that jump to mind. As it stands now, it looks rather dull.
BTW, I’d have the Tank’s grappling hook work to pull the Tank onto the dragon where the Tank can latch on for the ride and enable the players to oppose the dragon tactics rather than act like sitting ducks. Perhaps the tank then drops lines for the fighters and other hand-to-hand PCs to climb on and join in the fun. Of course the risk is killing the dragon at a high altitude where the fall damage could kill the riders. That’s where the dragon then uses the environment (Citadel?), hills, mountains or trees to attempt to knock off the riders. It also means the battle extends beyond the starting point and could take it all over a node, eventually ending in the dragon’s lair or a place the dragon thinks is more defensible. This also raises the likelihood of the PVP element as everyone else can witness this epic fight.
But bottom line, while I like that the fights have stages, I think they tend to be too scripted and predictable. That’s always been an issue for me with PVE in MMOs in that it becomes more of a memory game. I think there ought to be a set of options the players can engage in, or the boss to choose, that changes up the script to make for a more dynamic event. In other words you have no idea where the fight is going, although you can use tactics to try to nudge it along. The dragon AI should also recognize player tendencies to counter routines and perhaps program it to come up with new, more creative strategies and tactics.
Appreciate you Intrepid.