Resurrection during combat

So during the Dev stream, while the raid was fighting the dragon. Steven (and others) were resurrecting people who had died. I was wondering what everyone feels about resurrecting people mid fight? I know Steven had GM powers on, which made it appear to be much easier to do than it actually is, but i'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on it anyways.

My thought is that if you're going to allow people to be resurrected during combat, there are a couple of things to consider:

1. The cooldown of the resurrect ability. Should there be one? Should you be able to chain cast your rez if you have it?
2. Diminishing returns - Should there be a defined period of time that must elapse before you can accept another rez? (i.e. you must wait 30 seconds to be rezzed again after receiving a rez, with subsequent rezzes requiring more and more time.)

What are your thoughts?

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Effah

daveywavey wrote: »

It's PvX though, we shouldn't be thinking of it in terms of PvE and PvP.

No its a pvp game with pve excuses to gank each other. Casual players already pushing their impossible balancing.

Shabooey

daveywavey wrote: »

Resurrection during combat is essential. It opens up so many more options, and means that once somebody dies, if the fight goes on for another 20mins, that they get to actually join in, rather than either lying there being useless or having to port to the nearest resurrection shrine and being useless. All archetypes should be able to do it, with different degrees of efficiency.

Agree with this. I would also add I'd want the res to be a channel which can be interrupted (same goes for all channelled abilities, they need to be able to be interrupted).

Githal

Noaani wrote: »

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

I want combat rez, mass combat rez and combat rez scrolls. Abilities should have long cd, high cost and long cast time (with mass rez having ~30 min cd, if not hour). Mass rez should only apply to your party, not the guild/raid.

Scrolls should have an even longer cast time and should be crafted at a fairly high cost.

I agree with this, personally.

Mass rez on a 30 minute cd, rez scroll on a 60 minute cd, and single target on a 5 minute cd. Give all of them a 10 second cast time, and I don't really consider the mana use to be of significance (if you have 10 seconds to rez someone, you can probably get your mana back fairly easily).

To me, rather than the mass rez being group only though, I'd like to see it being 8 players in your own raid, within a given range. However, people bought up with this specific ability should find themselves at lower HP/mana than if they were bought up by a single target rez.

so in 40 man raid, if you have 5 clerics (1 for every 8 players). You get: 40 res from scrolls + 40 res from the 5 clerics mass resurrect + 5 resurrects every 5 mins.
So you want to tell me 90-100 resurrects in 1 fight is acceptable for 40 players? WOW, just WOW.

I am in the complete opposite stance. Combat resurrect should NOT EXIST. Or if it exist should be only single target resurrect with 30 min cd at least. WIth only clerics having resurrect spell (no scrolls for res at all). And also the resurrect should put debuff that prevents the same target from being resurrected again for the next 30 min.

Noaani

Githal wrote: »

so in 40 man raid, if you have 5 clerics (1 for every 8 players). You get: 40 res from scrolls + 40 res from the 5 clerics mass resurrect + 5 resurrects every 5 mins.
So you want to tell me 90-100 resurrects in 1 fight is acceptable for 40 players?

Yeah, if you want to use them all up.

I'm not sure why you would, as if you are needing that many, clearly you are doing something wrong.

Having access to that amount of resurrection capacity doesn't mean you want to use it all, nor that you should use it all. If you use all of those resurrections because you needed to use them all, you are still going to fail at killing the encounter - so you are only wasting your own time and resources by doing so.

In this situation, it doesn't even matter if this is PvE or PvP, if you use that amount of resurrection resources, you've lost. More resurrection resources used just means you lost even more.

From a PvP perspective, thrashing a rival guild and watching them resurrect mid fight in order to attempt to keep things going - but thrashing them anyway is just one of lifes little joys.

Githal

Noaani wrote: »

Githal wrote: »

so in 40 man raid, if you have 5 clerics (1 for every 8 players). You get: 40 res from scrolls + 40 res from the 5 clerics mass resurrect + 5 resurrects every 5 mins.
So you want to tell me 90-100 resurrects in 1 fight is acceptable for 40 players?

Yeah, if you want to use them all up.

I'm not sure why you would, as if you are needing that many, clearly you are doing something wrong.

Having access to that amount of resurrection capacity doesn't mean you want to use it all, nor that you should use it all. If you use all of those resurrections because you needed to use them all, you are still going to fail at killing the encounter - so you are only wasting your own time and resources by doing so.

In this situation, it doesn't even matter if this is PvE or PvP, if you use that amount of resurrection resources, you've lost. More resurrection resources used just means you lost even more.

From a PvP perspective, thrashing a rival guild and watching them resurrect mid fight in order to attempt to keep things going - but thrashing them anyway is just one of lifes little joys.

In the Firebrand showcase. We saw more than 40 resurrects. and in the end they managed to kill it. And without those resurrects they would have failed. So i disagree.

Noaani

Githal wrote: »

In the Firebrand showcase. We saw more than 40 resurrects. and in the end they managed to kill it. And without those resurrects they would have failed. So i disagree.

Yes, because that "showcase" had an aspect of reality to it...

If a raid leader suggested that as a method to kill a boss, that raid leader would be looking for a new raid.

Githal

Noaani wrote: »

Githal wrote: »

In the Firebrand showcase. We saw more than 40 resurrects. and in the end they managed to kill it. And without those resurrects they would have failed. So i disagree.

Yes, because that "showcase" had an aspect of reality to it...

If a raid leader suggested that as a method to kill a boss, that raid leader would be looking for a new raid.

I thought players wanted harder PVE content. If you have 100 potential resurrects in 1 fight. Even the hardest bosses will be trivial if you are willing to invest into killing them.

Veeshan

On topic of combat rezz the Necromancer (Summoner/cleric) should totally get a quick rezz skill the revives allied players as a zombie/skeleton that they control for like 20 seconds-30 seconds (Could do enemy too but they dont get to control those) the undead type u rezz as could be dependent on the class u rezz too, would be an interesting little mechanic for that class :P

Noaani

Githal wrote: »

I thought players wanted harder PVE content. If you have 100 potential resurrects in 1 fight. Even the hardest bosses will be trivial if you are willing to invest into killing them.

I hate to say it, but this is absolutely spoken like someone that has no clue.

If you have infinate resurrects, a hard encounter is still hard. If you are taking the fight on the wrong way, you will not kill it.

Ever.

If you are taking it on the right way, you probably don't need any ressurects at all.

Having more resurrect capacity means those that have no clue (poke poke) simply end up costing their raid/guild more because they don't know when to call the pull and try something different. Again, this applies as much to PvP as it does PvE.

Githal

Noaani wrote: »

Githal wrote: »

I thought players wanted harder PVE content. If you have 100 potential resurrects in 1 fight. Even the hardest bosses will be trivial if you are willing to invest into killing them.

I hate to say it, but this is absolutely spoken like someone that has no clue.

If you have infinate resurrects, a hard encounter is still hard. If you are taking the fight on the wrong way, you will not kill it.

Ever.

If you are taking it on the right way, you probably don't need any ressurects at all.

Having more resurrect capacity means those that have no clue (poke poke) simply end up costing their raid/guild more because they don't know when to call the pull and try something different. Again, this applies as much to PvP as it does PvE.

What you are talking about will apply if the boss has some kind of Instant Wipe mechanics. And this wont be the case with AOC since its open world.

And you are talking here some complete noobies, And even they will be able to kill a hard boss.
For a group that is doing the highest mythic dungeons in WOW or hardest raids in other games,
Even if AOC create hard enough boss, with infinite resurrects the boss will be still trivial

STEVEN is talking that only like 10% of the population will be able to clear the hardest contents. And what you are talking is like: Everyone can clear the hardest content, just invest some more in ingame gold beforehand.

Korela

It's really sad that Steven showed another boss in the open world WITHOUT PvP. Because of this, some, ahem, experienced PvE mmorpg players can't understand how the PvP aspect affects the game experience.

Khronus

PVP combat rez is a terrible idea unless there is a specific "battle rez" skill for certain classes.

PVE combat rez open to everyone is an interesting idea and I don't really know if I like it yet or not. I would need to be in a raid setting to figure that out.

On one hand, I don't want it to make content trivial and on the other, it will be a nice tool to use if there are heavy limitations.

Bringing 20 clerics to a raid because you can cheese it is a horrible thought that will cause my entire guild to quit.

Effah

Raids can be trivial, they already are in most game.

Electronn

daveywavey wrote: »

All archetypes should be able to do it, with different degrees of efficiency.

I completely disagree with this. While we are at it, maybe give every class blink and shield wall too?

As stated in a previous thread, once you start giving every class every ability, it erodes class identity and the fun of playing (for me anyway).

I personally don't like the scrolls, but if they have a long cd for the party/raid, like 15 minutes, and they are weak rezzes, then ok. The Cleric should have the best rez with the ability to spec skill points into a very strong rez with shortest cd, shortest cast time and reduced death penalties. I think Cleric and the scrolls should be the only battle rez (again, with scrolls being weak and having a long cd). Give the bard and maybe summoner a weak rez without the ability to rez in combat, just to help alleviate the annoyance of corpse runs.

Resurrection, especially during combat, should be viewed as a very powerful ability that can save the group in an epic fashion and must be used strategically. Not something everyone is running around doing with 10+ rezzes during every encounter. There were WAY too many resurrections during the Firebrand fight.

Also, scrolls should be a high end crafted item.

iccer

Resurrection during combat is absolutely necessary.

It should be risky, but if you pull it off, you get rewarded for it - and I'm talking about mass ress here. High risk could be longer cast time for example, but not too long. Enemies should have the ability to react to someone casting it, and interrupt them, but it shouldn't be too long, where you will always be interrupted.
Cooldown around 20-30min, sure, but what if you don't finish the cast? Should it be fully reset, fully on cd, or somewhere in between?
Test, and see what works.

In my opinion, only the Cleric should have access to such ability, while others can use scrolls. Maybe summoner can get it's own version of single target res, especially if they're a Cleric as a secondary.

If you pull off a good mass res, you can turn the tide of a battle.

I'm going to make an assumption here that might as well be wrong, but I think those who are against combat res in PvP, simply haven't played any games with open-world mass PvP.

Vargan

For sure.

I would actually love for each archtype to gain access to an extremely powerful , unique, group-wide skill, on a very long cooldown. Something that can turn the tide in battle, or provide a counter-play of sorts. Here are a few examples:

Cleric - Mass Resurrection - Resurrects all party members in a radius with 50% health and 25% mana - 1h CD
Rogue - Mass Invisibility - Provides 20s of cloak to all party members in a radius. The first attack when coming out of cloak deals 20% more damage - 30m CD
Summoner - Summon Allies - Teleports all party members to the caster's location, regardless of distance - 2h CD
Tank - Unbreakable Phalanx - Makes all party members in a radius invulnerable to all types of damage and crowd control for 5s - 1h CD
etc.

Curious if you guys have any ideas about the rest.

iccer

Xit wrote: »

For sure.

I would actually love for each archtype to gain access to an extremely powerful , unique, group-wide skill, on a very long cooldown. Something that can turn the tide in battle, or provide a counter-play of sorts. Here are a few examples:

Cleric - Mass Resurrection - Resurrects all party members in a radius with 50% health and 25% mana - 1h CD
Rogue - Mass Invisibility - Provides 20s of cloak to all party members in a radius. The first attack when coming out of cloak deals 20% more damage - 30m CD
Summoner - Summon Allies - Teleports all party members to the caster's location, regardless of distance - 2h CD
Tank - Unbreakable Phalanx - Makes all party members in a radius invulnerable to all types of damage and crowd control for 5s - 1h CD
etc.

Curious if you guys have any ideas about the rest.

I'm actually all for this.

Bard could also have some sort of a raid-wide buff for allies.

In all cases, it's a long cd ability, so you better choose the right time to use it. It's a version of an Ultimate skill.

Vargan

For Bard I was thinking something more offensive, like Naga's Song of the Siren from DOTA2, putting everyone outside of party/raid to sleep for 5s, in a rather large radius.

Ruerik

Githal wrote: »

STEVEN is talking that only like 10% of the population will be able to clear the hardest contents. And what you are talking is like: Everyone can clear the hardest content, just invest some more in ingame gold beforehand.

Thats kind of just the way it is though in pure PvE.
You invest in dying over and over again in repeated boss attempts, hundreds of wipes over weeks to months for a brand new top end challenge. Investing everything it takes to learn all the tricks. Reviewing hours of video footage of your recorded attempts from multiple points of views to decipher the mechanics.

Until eventually you get the clear, and then you know everything there is to know about the raid and you have it on farm. Other teams leech off your effort if you happen to share strategies.

In PvE, all it takes is time and effort. Anyone can do it, some people it will take far more time and effort than others, and they give up or dont try to improve the weak areas necessary to get the clear. It all depends on your teams initial level of skill and commitment to learning at a fast pace.

In a PvE only scenario, you only lose if you quit.
Its not like a PvP or PvX scenario, or open world encounters where there are variables beyond just learning how the boss works. These bosses are just built different, simpler mechanics that don't take weeks to learn either, because in PvX, you can know everything and still lose.

Arya_Yeshe

Well, think about this, some classes will have mana and other classes will have something else, how to balance that and make it fair for all classes, since they heal themselves differently?

Any character that is ressurected should get back with 5% health and 5% mana/stuff and be at risk of being one shotted or simply get melted by AoE/dots being spammed around

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