Steven's response to secondary archetypes

I know this has been discussed before, but we have some new info. Steven's answer to the secondary archetypes gave us a better idea of where they may go with secondary archetypes. I was curious what people thought about his answer and what they want to see.

He responded there are various ideas in the table. Secondary archetypes may effect damage values, cooldowns, mana cost, range of abilities, ect. Furthermore, they may effect the visual graphics of spells.

In my opinion, you can't go wrong with changing visual effects. This would only increase the unique customization of the character. However, damage values, cooldowns, and otherwise makes me fear the inevitability of a meta class. I would hate to see every single PvP player running tank or cleric secondary because of their common PvP benefits. That limits builds and "forces" us to commit to a build we don't enjoy to be the most effective.

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Dygz

Augments don't require Skill Points, but...
Yes. One Shadow Disciple could only apply Rogue Augments on one Active Skill while a different Shadow Disciple applies Rogue Augments on 15+ Active Skills.

nanfoodle

Iskiab wrote: »

I think the secondary archtypes should be pretty simple. You have so many talent points to allocate per character in the talent tree, say 64 points. If you have a secondary you put points in the secondary class instead of the primary, but not more then your primary class.

So a cleric/rogue could be 60 cleric/4 rogue, or 32cleric/32rogue.

Will be in testing how secondary class will change how skills work and what skills can be changed to do something different. How rogue can a Cleric become? Because you will still base class a Cleric but can that class get full stealth like a Rogue? Can't wait for the augment update. Summer of 2025 can't come soon enough.

Dygz

Active Skills are more powerful than Augments.
Which is why the term Primary Archetype is used. Primarily a Cleric.
A Cleric/Rogue cannot replace the need for a Primary Archetype Rogue in an 8-person Group.
Even if a Shadow Disciple could get full Stealth from an Augment, it wouldn't last as long as the Active Skill.

George_Black

@Morgalf

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/60692/proposal-for-class-mini-dev-series-on-8-points#latest

I invite those intrerested in your future AoC characters, which is obvious since you started your own threads on a topic that for years didnt get a serious attention from the community, to join this proposal.

nanfoodle

Dygz wrote: »

Active Skills are more powerful than Augments.
Which is why the term Primary Archetype is used. Primarily a Cleric.
A Cleric/Rogue cannot replace the need for a Primary Archetype Rogue in an 8-person Group.
Even if a Shadow Disciple could get full Stealth from an Augment, it wouldn't last as long as the Active Skill.

True a Cleric can never be a replacement for a base class rogue. Much like a Rogure \ Cleric could never play group healer. But secondary archetypes can also change a skill to something else. Steven said as much. I could see Cleric \ Rogure even getting stealth of some type. Maybe even some damage improvements. And a Rogue \ Cleric could also do some backup heals in some way. And to his point a Cleric \ Rogue could spec deep enough that their heal spells could suffer being a main healer but could be a fun class to run with some rangers and rogues in some stealth missions.

Dygz

nanfoodle wrote: »

True a Cleric can never be a replacement for a base class rogue. Much like a Rogue \ Cleric could never play group healer. But secondary archetypes can also change a skill to something else. Steven said as much. I could see Cleric \ Rogue even getting stealth of some type. Maybe even some damage improvements. And a Rogue \ Cleric could also do some backup heals in some way. And to his point a Cleric \ Rogue could spec deep enough that their heal spells could suffer being a main healer but could be a fun class to run with some rangers and rogues in some stealth missions.

If I understand what you wrote above...
(Keep in mind that Secondary Archetypes do not provide brand new Active Skills - I think "change into something else" is paraphrase that could be a bit misleading depending on what, exactly, that is intended to mean.)
I think I said all that...

juvian

Hutchy1989 wrote: »

Theres always going to be a meta. Having less options is certainly not going to fix that.

meta in games like dota , LOL , valorant , overwatch , these type of games is fine , but meta in a game where you spend months investing in a class then literally go to sleep , wake up , read the patch notes , find out that ur class nerfed and other class outshines u and u are not needed in competitive pvp because u are replaced by other more needed roles , that is just horrible experience , it leads to two outcomes , people taking break quitting , or ppl grinding new class , both outcomes happen , in game design if u are not able to balance 64 classes then literally don't do it , u are just wasting resources

abc0815

juvian wrote: »

Hutchy1989 wrote: »

Theres always going to be a meta. Having less options is certainly not going to fix that.

meta in games like dota , LOL , valorant , overwatch , these type of games is fine , but meta in a game where you spend months investing in a class then literally go to sleep , wake up , read the patch notes , find out that ur class nerfed and other class outshines u and u are not needed in competitive pvp because u are replaced by other more needed roles , that is just horrible experience , it leads to two outcomes , people taking break quitting , or ppl grinding new class , both outcomes happen , in game design if u are not able to balance 64 classes then literally don't do it , u are just wasting resources

Meta could mean all classes are good (or bad) or what ever. This is why there is always a "meta". And unless everything will be the same, some classes / combo will be better for certain fights. If my class does not have any AOE damage then any AOE fight i am less optimal.

Kilion

juvian wrote: »

Hutchy1989 wrote: »

Theres always going to be a meta. Having less options is certainly not going to fix that.

meta in games like dota , LOL , valorant , overwatch , these type of games is fine , but meta in a game where you spend months investing in a class then literally go to sleep , wake up , read the patch notes , find out that ur class nerfed and other class outshines u and u are not needed in competitive pvp because u are replaced by other more needed roles , that is just horrible experience , it leads to two outcomes , people taking break quitting , or ppl grinding new class , both outcomes happen , in game design if u are not able to balance 64 classes then literally don't do it , u are just wasting resources

Which is why there are so many adjustment systems planned, so we as player can adapt without having to wait for a patch.

That being said, I think (and this is me SPECULATING) it is worth considering that we might have to consider secondary archetypes as a temporary decision for ourselves. Much like gear, if the environment changes (e.g. a certain archetype being played a lot on a certain server/ in a specific region; a certain type of resource being unavailable or available in abundance; a certain type of mob spreading) what is "best in slot" might change in regards to classes.

We don't know if certain world events doesn't include temporarily buffing a certain type of ability. For example having a special relic in your divine Node could increase holy damage or increase the overall healing received in that Node's ZOI (Zone of Influence) which would empower orimary and secondary cleric archetypes in the first case or buff healers but make classes that can reduce healing more important - thats something we just do not know yet but could provide ingame incentives to change your secondary Archetype from time to time based on ingame changes without external influence.

Githal

Morgalf wrote: »

I know this has been discussed before, but we have some new info. Steven's answer to the secondary archetypes gave us a better idea of where they may go with secondary archetypes. I was curious what people thought about his answer and what they want to see.

He responded there are various ideas in the table. Secondary archetypes may effect damage values, cooldowns, mana cost, range of abilities, ect. Furthermore, they may effect the visual graphics of spells.

In my opinion, you can't go wrong with changing visual effects. This would only increase the unique customization of the character. However, damage values, cooldowns, and otherwise makes me fear the inevitability of a meta class. I would hate to see every single PvP player running tank or cleric secondary because of their common PvP benefits. That limits builds and "forces" us to commit to a build we don't enjoy to be the most effective.

You have a lot options to choose from. For example instead Tank secondary, you may go for Plate armor. Or shield as weapon, and put points on active blocking skills. Race may affect this as well. And also there are augments from the religion. With so many variables to choose from, There will be for sure Youtube videos about a "meta". BUT if this is the optimal build is another question.
Not to mention the optimal build for small scale PVP is different from Large scale PVP is different from Dungeons/Raids and ect. And when the game is PVX you cant just take X build for raid, since you may encounter PVP

Yoh

Dygz wrote: »

That would not be a perfect world.
64 true Classes (the D&D definition) would be too difficult for the devs to balance - even in the best world.

I'm not sure how true this often used statement is. I play Pathfinder 2e, and you'd be surprised at how many character options and complexity you can have, and still be balanced, so long as you put in the effort into the system in the beginning and get your damn math right.

It's absolutely doable, it's just not easy.
But honestly, I don't balance is really that important. I think it's more important for the secondary archetype options to be distinct and interesting, otherwise what is the point?

Why have a system like this if your not going to do anything with it. But it seems like they very may be doing something interesting, so I'm willing to wait and see.

Dygz

The Pathfinder 2E you mention is the table-top version; not the MMORPG?

The point is for Primary Archetypes to have opportunities to move the dial closer to one of the other Archetypes (or double down on their own) - without creating a balancing nightmare for the devs.
Also helps make 8-person Groups fairly consistent - since Ashes encounters are balanced for an 8-person Group with one of each Primary Archetype.

FreeLunchFelon

George_Black wrote: »

Hutchy1989 wrote: »

Theres always going to be a meta. Having less options is certainly not going to fix that.

How is 15-20 properpy fleshed out, solid and unique classes, with matching animations and ability schemes, as well as non combat functions and boons, with each class specializing in 2 to 4 weapons (let's take the extremes, mage 2 and fighter 4 weapons) "less options"?
They are true options with lots to choose from.

You think this so called customization of the 64 classes and unrestricted weapon/skill usage will offer you true freedom of choice?
You wont have a choice when the majority of the classes like cleric/rogue and ranger/tank and fighter/summoner lose to those that make sense.
You wont have choice when you realise that yes you can slot any weapon you want but they wont matter. There is no plan in this design. Only a vision in potential.
Not to mention that the animations will be lack luster to make it so that all weapon usage barely fits with the abilities, making most of them looking unsatisfying.

I actually disagree with this and there has been proof to why you are wrong in games like Ragnarok Online pre-transcendent classes.

Did certain classes have skills that gave them bonuses to use some weapons over others? Yes. But it did not mean you could not put together a viable build taking another route. There were plenty of successful thief class players, who wanted a mix of magic or to use a bow that chose the Rogue class over Assaasian. As a result you had a class which did something very good skill wise (providing debuffs), that mixed in with the theme of the original class (hiding, sneaking, stalking, backstab damage) as well as opened up a number of opportunities to explore other play styles. Stalkers could be magic users who were int based, yet still be viable with core mechanics of the class. They could go bow based and be formidable at medium range. They could play traditionally with a dagger and shield and it never overpowered the other play styles. With just one class, you had 3-4 play styles to choose from. If you account for the overall tree, we're talking about nearly 10 just from 1 starting class. I don't see it being impossible in the modern day for Ashes to be able to achieve that with sub classes. If a game like Ragnaork Online could do it back then with matching animations per skill, it's really not impossible.

George_Black

Ok... it failed in eso and AA. The ball is in your court

PugHealer

If the secondary class is mostly just for flavor and some minor graphics tweaks, there's not really any point in them existing. Might as well just call them cosmetics. If they're not significantly impacting on the main class, then there aren't really 64 classes, there's only 8 and the game never should have been put forth as having 64 classes. The differences should be major and profoundly affect the way the main class is played. 8 classes with in game chosen visual tweaks is nothing. I agree with the person who said that it will come back to bite them in the ass in reviews.

It will definitely affect if I continue to play when the game launches. Decisions as dumb as having them just be flavoring of the main class, when promoting it as 64 classes, would be an indicator of a whole lot of really dumb decisions everywhere else.

Aszkalon

Dygz wrote: »

There's always gamers who claim there is a META.

To me,

it looks like the ONLY META that exists in Ashes of Creation will be - > that there will hardly be any META at all. Alone from the fact that Eight whole Classes can choose various, different Secondary Archetypes.

What for a wonderful, beautiful System. Very flexible and fresh every single time.

Morgalf

I just hope the cleric secondary is not absurdly powerful in PvP. It should take away a lot of damage or other capabilities. Otherwise heres not 64, theres 8 classes. X / cleric

I wouldn't even mind them getting decent heals or tank skills. As long as they loose most of what made them powerful originally. Otherwise, there will be 1 secondary that everyone uses. X / Cleric.

Buffing the amount of heals or tanks on the market is cool in my opinion. Then, maybe the dps should just get some extra stuff from the secondary, rather than a significant rework.

This is sort of like WoW classic Season of Discovery is doing. I've tried mage healer and rogue tank. The mage healer does not keep up with the other mages in damage, at all. The rogue tank is pretty powerful and could potentially lose a bit of dps. However, in PvP neither are the "Meta" spec. The mage carries 1 heal (this makes them pretty tough) but the rogue removes everything tank. Warlock tanks on the otherhand are insane in PvP. You may as well just banish and walk away. Their damage is pretty good, but their tankyness and self heals make them very tough. There's a fine line to making a class way more powerful than the rest when you involve healing and tanking secondaries. This is a game breaker in my opinion.

AirborneBerserker

juvian wrote: »

Hutchy1989 wrote: »

Theres always going to be a meta. Having less options is certainly not going to fix that.

meta in games like dota , LOL , valorant , overwatch , these type of games is fine , but meta in a game where you spend months investing in a class then literally go to sleep , wake up , read the patch notes , find out that ur class nerfed and other class outshines u and u are not needed in competitive pvp because u are replaced by other more needed roles , that is just horrible experience , it leads to two outcomes , people taking break quitting , or ppl grinding new class , both outcomes happen , in game design if u are not able to balance 64 classes then literally don't do it , u are just wasting resources

To be fair you can swap your secondary class with a lengthy class quest which will help with that situation.

abc0815 wrote: »

Meta could mean all classes are good (or bad) or what ever. This is why there is always a "meta". And unless everything will be the same, some classes / combo will be better for certain fights. If my class does not have any AOE damage then any AOE fight i am less optimal.

See I think people will shift the focus of the META from the individual and instead have whole group comps, complete with builds for each of the 4/8 slots. Assigning a role and build for each slot making the META even more restrictive.

Dygz

If we're using D&D terms: Ashes has 8 Classes and 64 Sub-Classes.
Intrepid has defined what their jargon for Class means and have always acknowlged that their terms for Class and Archetype are unique to Ashes.

nanfoodle

Dygz wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

True a Cleric can never be a replacement for a base class rogue. Much like a Rogue \ Cleric could never play group healer. But secondary archetypes can also change a skill to something else. Steven said as much. I could see Cleric \ Rogue even getting stealth of some type. Maybe even some damage improvements. And a Rogue \ Cleric could also do some backup heals in some way. And to his point a Cleric \ Rogue could spec deep enough that their heal spells could suffer being a main healer but could be a fun class to run with some rangers and rogues in some stealth missions.

If I understand what you wrote above...
(Keep in mind that Secondary Archetypes do not provide brand new Active Skills - I think "change into something else" is paraphrase that could be a bit misleading depending on what, exactly, that is intended to mean.)
I think I said all that...

Sorry 100% dyslexic here and words are not my friends. lol. Something else. Is from what I got from Steven's words. Bard skill that trades your health with a player, could be Augmented to instead trade your mana pool. This could lead to some options being more impactful then just changing damage types.

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