Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over. you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed. I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them. You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass. As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour. Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful. again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7. 2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3 Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node. Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses. Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players. Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems. no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. do you think the big toxic guild you mention is gonna invite you when they could invite their own members? please xD these type of games work differently. bosses will be fought over by warring guilds. winning the boss is still important and rewarding even if you don't get an item. not letting your opponents get it its still as good. you will eventually get the item you want. just see it as doing multiple runs of an instance to get that 1% drop or whatever. you don't always get something you need on each run and that's okay. also, no need to link anything. watch the dragon stream again, steven mentioned it in a q & a You're a shining example of why these loot systems are a bad idea. Anti-social behavior is bad for an MMO, and systems that directly encourage that sort of behavior while leaving the majority of contributors with nothing means you're going to have a very sparce population willing to do the difficult content. Why would I or anyone waste hours of time for no gain? Why would I or anyone volunteer to help when the systems at play practically beg the group I'm helping to give me nothing for it? If bosses don't drop much of anything, why would I even care to go fight off another group to deny them it? Oh no, they got one armor piece for their 20man team and a pittance of crafting materials. Whereas if I know there is a large stock of materials on the line because everyone gets Gathering drops and I have a lot of high-level players with maxed Gathering lines, I'll be fighting tooth and nail over control of those bosses to deny other groups looting rights. They can't contribute toward the merit thresholds if they're at respawn, and I stand to gain a lot. Edit: The world boss was confirmed to adjust attacks based on the number of players engaged with it in the stream. Not sure what you were listening to that gave you the idea they wouldn't implement any anti-zerg mechanics. Here, timestamp 01:01:40 https://youtu.be/pfdnNWkUov4?si=rKKhZUK8E5Ncl2-F&t=3700 lmao I've never screwed anyone over loot in my 20 years of mmorpg. I've been screwed sometimes though. what a shining example I am of whats wrong. no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. We’re talking about the groups that did earn it. So far not a single person has tried to claim every single person who so much as breathes on the boss should get a payout. What is being asked for is that the successful raid group actually get rewarded in a way that isn’t prone to gm/office abuse. Players shouldn’t have loot control like that, loot distribution should be handled entirely by the game itself. no it shouldn't. just join a guild that doesn't do gm/officer abuse. the game will give you different loot options. pick one you like and play with people who like the same one. not everybody should get rewarded, or even rewarded equally anyways. not everybody contributes equally. its nice to get things, but if not, you should keep trying. what happens to those people who managed to pvp and kill everybody trying to kill your pve raiders and take the boss? they never touch the boss or are in the same group as the people killing it but their contribution is significant. how do you reward them? giving the loot to the guild bank and distributing it based on different parameters and merit isn't a bad system. The game should absolutely handle the loot dispersal. Anything beyond the initial distribution can be handled as the guild wants and the guild members will agree to. Crowd funding (we’re asking everyone chip in) vs communism (we’re setting lootmaster and you get no input to how we hand it out) ok lets say we do as you wish. the game gives an item to everybody who participated in killing the raid. then the guild master/officer says "hey, everybody go and deposit everything you got for redistribution based on XYZ". so whats the difference then? you are still subject to gm/officer abuse. if you don't deposit whatever you got, then you never get invited again to anything or you get kicked, the only difference is you get to "steal" something first.
Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over. you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed. I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them. You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass. As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour. Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful. again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7. 2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3 Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node. Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses. Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players. Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems. no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. do you think the big toxic guild you mention is gonna invite you when they could invite their own members? please xD these type of games work differently. bosses will be fought over by warring guilds. winning the boss is still important and rewarding even if you don't get an item. not letting your opponents get it its still as good. you will eventually get the item you want. just see it as doing multiple runs of an instance to get that 1% drop or whatever. you don't always get something you need on each run and that's okay. also, no need to link anything. watch the dragon stream again, steven mentioned it in a q & a You're a shining example of why these loot systems are a bad idea. Anti-social behavior is bad for an MMO, and systems that directly encourage that sort of behavior while leaving the majority of contributors with nothing means you're going to have a very sparce population willing to do the difficult content. Why would I or anyone waste hours of time for no gain? Why would I or anyone volunteer to help when the systems at play practically beg the group I'm helping to give me nothing for it? If bosses don't drop much of anything, why would I even care to go fight off another group to deny them it? Oh no, they got one armor piece for their 20man team and a pittance of crafting materials. Whereas if I know there is a large stock of materials on the line because everyone gets Gathering drops and I have a lot of high-level players with maxed Gathering lines, I'll be fighting tooth and nail over control of those bosses to deny other groups looting rights. They can't contribute toward the merit thresholds if they're at respawn, and I stand to gain a lot. Edit: The world boss was confirmed to adjust attacks based on the number of players engaged with it in the stream. Not sure what you were listening to that gave you the idea they wouldn't implement any anti-zerg mechanics. Here, timestamp 01:01:40 https://youtu.be/pfdnNWkUov4?si=rKKhZUK8E5Ncl2-F&t=3700 lmao I've never screwed anyone over loot in my 20 years of mmorpg. I've been screwed sometimes though. what a shining example I am of whats wrong. no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. We’re talking about the groups that did earn it. So far not a single person has tried to claim every single person who so much as breathes on the boss should get a payout. What is being asked for is that the successful raid group actually get rewarded in a way that isn’t prone to gm/office abuse. Players shouldn’t have loot control like that, loot distribution should be handled entirely by the game itself. no it shouldn't. just join a guild that doesn't do gm/officer abuse. the game will give you different loot options. pick one you like and play with people who like the same one. not everybody should get rewarded, or even rewarded equally anyways. not everybody contributes equally. its nice to get things, but if not, you should keep trying. what happens to those people who managed to pvp and kill everybody trying to kill your pve raiders and take the boss? they never touch the boss or are in the same group as the people killing it but their contribution is significant. how do you reward them? giving the loot to the guild bank and distributing it based on different parameters and merit isn't a bad system. The game should absolutely handle the loot dispersal. Anything beyond the initial distribution can be handled as the guild wants and the guild members will agree to. Crowd funding (we’re asking everyone chip in) vs communism (we’re setting lootmaster and you get no input to how we hand it out)
Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over. you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed. I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them. You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass. As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour. Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful. again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7. 2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3 Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node. Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses. Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players. Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems. no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. do you think the big toxic guild you mention is gonna invite you when they could invite their own members? please xD these type of games work differently. bosses will be fought over by warring guilds. winning the boss is still important and rewarding even if you don't get an item. not letting your opponents get it its still as good. you will eventually get the item you want. just see it as doing multiple runs of an instance to get that 1% drop or whatever. you don't always get something you need on each run and that's okay. also, no need to link anything. watch the dragon stream again, steven mentioned it in a q & a You're a shining example of why these loot systems are a bad idea. Anti-social behavior is bad for an MMO, and systems that directly encourage that sort of behavior while leaving the majority of contributors with nothing means you're going to have a very sparce population willing to do the difficult content. Why would I or anyone waste hours of time for no gain? Why would I or anyone volunteer to help when the systems at play practically beg the group I'm helping to give me nothing for it? If bosses don't drop much of anything, why would I even care to go fight off another group to deny them it? Oh no, they got one armor piece for their 20man team and a pittance of crafting materials. Whereas if I know there is a large stock of materials on the line because everyone gets Gathering drops and I have a lot of high-level players with maxed Gathering lines, I'll be fighting tooth and nail over control of those bosses to deny other groups looting rights. They can't contribute toward the merit thresholds if they're at respawn, and I stand to gain a lot. Edit: The world boss was confirmed to adjust attacks based on the number of players engaged with it in the stream. Not sure what you were listening to that gave you the idea they wouldn't implement any anti-zerg mechanics. Here, timestamp 01:01:40 https://youtu.be/pfdnNWkUov4?si=rKKhZUK8E5Ncl2-F&t=3700 lmao I've never screwed anyone over loot in my 20 years of mmorpg. I've been screwed sometimes though. what a shining example I am of whats wrong. no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. We’re talking about the groups that did earn it. So far not a single person has tried to claim every single person who so much as breathes on the boss should get a payout. What is being asked for is that the successful raid group actually get rewarded in a way that isn’t prone to gm/office abuse. Players shouldn’t have loot control like that, loot distribution should be handled entirely by the game itself. no it shouldn't. just join a guild that doesn't do gm/officer abuse. the game will give you different loot options. pick one you like and play with people who like the same one. not everybody should get rewarded, or even rewarded equally anyways. not everybody contributes equally. its nice to get things, but if not, you should keep trying. what happens to those people who managed to pvp and kill everybody trying to kill your pve raiders and take the boss? they never touch the boss or are in the same group as the people killing it but their contribution is significant. how do you reward them? giving the loot to the guild bank and distributing it based on different parameters and merit isn't a bad system.
Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over. you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed. I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them. You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass. As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour. Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful. again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7. 2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3 Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node. Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses. Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players. Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems. no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. do you think the big toxic guild you mention is gonna invite you when they could invite their own members? please xD these type of games work differently. bosses will be fought over by warring guilds. winning the boss is still important and rewarding even if you don't get an item. not letting your opponents get it its still as good. you will eventually get the item you want. just see it as doing multiple runs of an instance to get that 1% drop or whatever. you don't always get something you need on each run and that's okay. also, no need to link anything. watch the dragon stream again, steven mentioned it in a q & a You're a shining example of why these loot systems are a bad idea. Anti-social behavior is bad for an MMO, and systems that directly encourage that sort of behavior while leaving the majority of contributors with nothing means you're going to have a very sparce population willing to do the difficult content. Why would I or anyone waste hours of time for no gain? Why would I or anyone volunteer to help when the systems at play practically beg the group I'm helping to give me nothing for it? If bosses don't drop much of anything, why would I even care to go fight off another group to deny them it? Oh no, they got one armor piece for their 20man team and a pittance of crafting materials. Whereas if I know there is a large stock of materials on the line because everyone gets Gathering drops and I have a lot of high-level players with maxed Gathering lines, I'll be fighting tooth and nail over control of those bosses to deny other groups looting rights. They can't contribute toward the merit thresholds if they're at respawn, and I stand to gain a lot. Edit: The world boss was confirmed to adjust attacks based on the number of players engaged with it in the stream. Not sure what you were listening to that gave you the idea they wouldn't implement any anti-zerg mechanics. Here, timestamp 01:01:40 https://youtu.be/pfdnNWkUov4?si=rKKhZUK8E5Ncl2-F&t=3700 lmao I've never screwed anyone over loot in my 20 years of mmorpg. I've been screwed sometimes though. what a shining example I am of whats wrong. no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. We’re talking about the groups that did earn it. So far not a single person has tried to claim every single person who so much as breathes on the boss should get a payout. What is being asked for is that the successful raid group actually get rewarded in a way that isn’t prone to gm/office abuse. Players shouldn’t have loot control like that, loot distribution should be handled entirely by the game itself.
Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over. you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed. I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them. You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass. As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour. Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful. again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7. 2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3 Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node. Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses. Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players. Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems. no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. do you think the big toxic guild you mention is gonna invite you when they could invite their own members? please xD these type of games work differently. bosses will be fought over by warring guilds. winning the boss is still important and rewarding even if you don't get an item. not letting your opponents get it its still as good. you will eventually get the item you want. just see it as doing multiple runs of an instance to get that 1% drop or whatever. you don't always get something you need on each run and that's okay. also, no need to link anything. watch the dragon stream again, steven mentioned it in a q & a You're a shining example of why these loot systems are a bad idea. Anti-social behavior is bad for an MMO, and systems that directly encourage that sort of behavior while leaving the majority of contributors with nothing means you're going to have a very sparce population willing to do the difficult content. Why would I or anyone waste hours of time for no gain? Why would I or anyone volunteer to help when the systems at play practically beg the group I'm helping to give me nothing for it? If bosses don't drop much of anything, why would I even care to go fight off another group to deny them it? Oh no, they got one armor piece for their 20man team and a pittance of crafting materials. Whereas if I know there is a large stock of materials on the line because everyone gets Gathering drops and I have a lot of high-level players with maxed Gathering lines, I'll be fighting tooth and nail over control of those bosses to deny other groups looting rights. They can't contribute toward the merit thresholds if they're at respawn, and I stand to gain a lot. Edit: The world boss was confirmed to adjust attacks based on the number of players engaged with it in the stream. Not sure what you were listening to that gave you the idea they wouldn't implement any anti-zerg mechanics. Here, timestamp 01:01:40 https://youtu.be/pfdnNWkUov4?si=rKKhZUK8E5Ncl2-F&t=3700 lmao I've never screwed anyone over loot in my 20 years of mmorpg. I've been screwed sometimes though. what a shining example I am of whats wrong.
Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over. you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed. I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them. You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass. As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour. Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful. again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7. 2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3 Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node. Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses. Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players. Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems. no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. do you think the big toxic guild you mention is gonna invite you when they could invite their own members? please xD these type of games work differently. bosses will be fought over by warring guilds. winning the boss is still important and rewarding even if you don't get an item. not letting your opponents get it its still as good. you will eventually get the item you want. just see it as doing multiple runs of an instance to get that 1% drop or whatever. you don't always get something you need on each run and that's okay. also, no need to link anything. watch the dragon stream again, steven mentioned it in a q & a You're a shining example of why these loot systems are a bad idea. Anti-social behavior is bad for an MMO, and systems that directly encourage that sort of behavior while leaving the majority of contributors with nothing means you're going to have a very sparce population willing to do the difficult content. Why would I or anyone waste hours of time for no gain? Why would I or anyone volunteer to help when the systems at play practically beg the group I'm helping to give me nothing for it? If bosses don't drop much of anything, why would I even care to go fight off another group to deny them it? Oh no, they got one armor piece for their 20man team and a pittance of crafting materials. Whereas if I know there is a large stock of materials on the line because everyone gets Gathering drops and I have a lot of high-level players with maxed Gathering lines, I'll be fighting tooth and nail over control of those bosses to deny other groups looting rights. They can't contribute toward the merit thresholds if they're at respawn, and I stand to gain a lot. Edit: The world boss was confirmed to adjust attacks based on the number of players engaged with it in the stream. Not sure what you were listening to that gave you the idea they wouldn't implement any anti-zerg mechanics. Here, timestamp 01:01:40 https://youtu.be/pfdnNWkUov4?si=rKKhZUK8E5Ncl2-F&t=3700
Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over. you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed. I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them. You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass. As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour. Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful. again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7. 2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3 Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node. Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses. Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players. Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems. no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. do you think the big toxic guild you mention is gonna invite you when they could invite their own members? please xD these type of games work differently. bosses will be fought over by warring guilds. winning the boss is still important and rewarding even if you don't get an item. not letting your opponents get it its still as good. you will eventually get the item you want. just see it as doing multiple runs of an instance to get that 1% drop or whatever. you don't always get something you need on each run and that's okay. also, no need to link anything. watch the dragon stream again, steven mentioned it in a q & a
Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over. you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed. I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them. You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass. As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour. Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful. again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7. 2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3 Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node. Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses. Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players. Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems.
Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over. you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed. I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them. You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass. As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour. Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful. again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7. 2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3
Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over. you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed. I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them. You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass. As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour. Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful.
Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over. you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed.
Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over.
Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3
Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops.
Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts.
no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it.
KingDDD wrote: » All these proposed "solutions" because some people refuse to take initiative, join a guild, and leave said guild if it doesn't fit their standards. I can see why you can't find guilds, you're extremely difficult to work with.
Pham wrote: » The bottom line is, if a system can be abused, it will be - at some point. I don't know that there are any "abuse-proof" systems, in the strictest sense. I think the most correct thing that we know to do, currently, is just to punish the people who abuse the systems when it happens to discourage others from doing the same. For ex, a group that is comprised mostly of guild members but needed a few more randoms to join to fill out the group. They finish some piece of difficult content and then the group leader who is a member of the guild kicks all the non-guild members of the group so they don't get a piece of the loot they rightly earned. Now, there are mechanics and checks you can put in place to make this type of abuse less likely to happen, but it could fundamentally change how loot is distributed and not necessarily for the better. For ex, a system whereby loot is allowed to be needed/greeded on, even to people who get kicked from the party as long as they were in the party when the content was finished (boss downed, or w/e). But this could be abused as well. For ex, you have 3 party members who did nothing or went afk during the middle of the boss fight or even just before and the party leader is too busy to notice or to do anything about it in the heat of the moment and so they remain in the party until they are finished. Those 3 people arguably should not be privy to the loot since they didn't contribute (and this could be on purpose, mind you) but in the above proposed loot system "fix" it would still give them a roll at the loot even if they were kicked before loot was distributed. So, either way it can still be abused. I'm not saying it's necessarily impossible to make something that won't or can't be abused, but I don't think I have ever seen it. And just because I can't immediately think of a way to abuse it doesn't mean there isn't a way or that someone else won't find one either. So.. back to my original thought about catching and punishing abusers.
Caeryl wrote: » Pham wrote: » The bottom line is, if a system can be abused, it will be - at some point. I don't know that there are any "abuse-proof" systems, in the strictest sense. I think the most correct thing that we know to do, currently, is just to punish the people who abuse the systems when it happens to discourage others from doing the same. For ex, a group that is comprised mostly of guild members but needed a few more randoms to join to fill out the group. They finish some piece of difficult content and then the group leader who is a member of the guild kicks all the non-guild members of the group so they don't get a piece of the loot they rightly earned. Now, there are mechanics and checks you can put in place to make this type of abuse less likely to happen, but it could fundamentally change how loot is distributed and not necessarily for the better. For ex, a system whereby loot is allowed to be needed/greeded on, even to people who get kicked from the party as long as they were in the party when the content was finished (boss downed, or w/e). But this could be abused as well. For ex, you have 3 party members who did nothing or went afk during the middle of the boss fight or even just before and the party leader is too busy to notice or to do anything about it in the heat of the moment and so they remain in the party until they are finished. Those 3 people arguably should not be privy to the loot since they didn't contribute (and this could be on purpose, mind you) but in the above proposed loot system "fix" it would still give them a roll at the loot even if they were kicked before loot was distributed. So, either way it can still be abused. I'm not saying it's necessarily impossible to make something that won't or can't be abused, but I don't think I have ever seen it. And just because I can't immediately think of a way to abuse it doesn't mean there isn't a way or that someone else won't find one either. So.. back to my original thought about catching and punishing abusers. The only determinant factors on getting loot should be: 1) were you in the group that won looting rights at the time the boss died 2) did you contribute to the fight in a meaningful way 3) do you have advancements in the Gathering profession that this boss would fall under (hunter for a beast, miner for a golem etc) These are all things the game knows, and regarding point 2, players are actually barred from knowing that information because Steven won’t allow combat metrics logging in any capacity for some reason. The only way to handle loot in a truly fair way is to have the game allocate it based on specific developer-established criteria, and to have enough non-gear loot in the form of recipes and craft mats drop that it always feels rewarding to be a part of the group that won the dps race.
Caeryl wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » All these proposed "solutions" because some people refuse to take initiative, join a guild, and leave said guild if it doesn't fit their standards. I can see why you can't find guilds, you're extremely difficult to work with. What about not wanting easily abused loot systems makes a person hard to work with exactly? So far no one has had an answer as to why the ‘better’ system is one that has easy and wide reaching abuse potential that ultimately will discourage players from wanting to contest open world PvP bosses, as opposed to a system where the game determines loot allocation, where any ‘abuse’ would be minuscule in scale of affect, and ensures meaningful contributors haven’t wasted their time, effort, and gear degradation they sustained to take on difficult, highly competitive content. That is not ‘literally every lvl1 who looked at it gets loot’ for those who are still under the warped impression that the choices are either ‘99% of players get shitall’ (because we include the raids that competed and lost) and ‘I get gold just by standing around’. You have to motivate players to do content and the easiest, fairest way is the have the reward structure handled entirely by the game. Anything more should not be possible to mandate, and should be something the guild comes together organically to do after the fact. Do need-greed in your group chat, bid in discord, let them swap between each other based on their needs. And for the love of everything good, give us what was promised from world bosses years ago and have the Gathering system integrated into harvesting boss materials. If the crafting and PvX systems aren’t interconnected anymore, then that’s a big chunk of my personal appeal to Ashes gone.
Pham wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Pham wrote: » The bottom line is, if a system can be abused, it will be - at some point. I don't know that there are any "abuse-proof" systems, in the strictest sense. I think the most correct thing that we know to do, currently, is just to punish the people who abuse the systems when it happens to discourage others from doing the same. For ex, a group that is comprised mostly of guild members but needed a few more randoms to join to fill out the group. They finish some piece of difficult content and then the group leader who is a member of the guild kicks all the non-guild members of the group so they don't get a piece of the loot they rightly earned. Now, there are mechanics and checks you can put in place to make this type of abuse less likely to happen, but it could fundamentally change how loot is distributed and not necessarily for the better. For ex, a system whereby loot is allowed to be needed/greeded on, even to people who get kicked from the party as long as they were in the party when the content was finished (boss downed, or w/e). But this could be abused as well. For ex, you have 3 party members who did nothing or went afk during the middle of the boss fight or even just before and the party leader is too busy to notice or to do anything about it in the heat of the moment and so they remain in the party until they are finished. Those 3 people arguably should not be privy to the loot since they didn't contribute (and this could be on purpose, mind you) but in the above proposed loot system "fix" it would still give them a roll at the loot even if they were kicked before loot was distributed. So, either way it can still be abused. I'm not saying it's necessarily impossible to make something that won't or can't be abused, but I don't think I have ever seen it. And just because I can't immediately think of a way to abuse it doesn't mean there isn't a way or that someone else won't find one either. So.. back to my original thought about catching and punishing abusers. The only determinant factors on getting loot should be: 1) were you in the group that won looting rights at the time the boss died 2) did you contribute to the fight in a meaningful way 3) do you have advancements in the Gathering profession that this boss would fall under (hunter for a beast, miner for a golem etc) These are all things the game knows, and regarding point 2, players are actually barred from knowing that information because Steven won’t allow combat metrics logging in any capacity for some reason. The only way to handle loot in a truly fair way is to have the game allocate it based on specific developer-established criteria, and to have enough non-gear loot in the form of recipes and craft mats drop that it always feels rewarding to be a part of the group that won the dps race. If it is handled in this way, then hopefully all the items you get are tradable, otherwise you might end up getting something you didn't want or really wanted a friend to get/have and not being able to do anything about it.
KingDDD wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » All these proposed "solutions" because some people refuse to take initiative, join a guild, and leave said guild if it doesn't fit their standards. I can see why you can't find guilds, you're extremely difficult to work with. What about not wanting easily abused loot systems makes a person hard to work with exactly? So far no one has had an answer as to why the ‘better’ system is one that has easy and wide reaching abuse potential that ultimately will discourage players from wanting to contest open world PvP bosses, as opposed to a system where the game determines loot allocation, where any ‘abuse’ would be minuscule in scale of affect, and ensures meaningful contributors haven’t wasted their time, effort, and gear degradation they sustained to take on difficult, highly competitive content. That is not ‘literally every lvl1 who looked at it gets loot’ for those who are still under the warped impression that the choices are either ‘99% of players get shitall’ (because we include the raids that competed and lost) and ‘I get gold just by standing around’. You have to motivate players to do content and the easiest, fairest way is the have the reward structure handled entirely by the game. Anything more should not be possible to mandate, and should be something the guild comes together organically to do after the fact. Do need-greed in your group chat, bid in discord, let them swap between each other based on their needs. And for the love of everything good, give us what was promised from world bosses years ago and have the Gathering system integrated into harvesting boss materials. If the crafting and PvX systems aren’t interconnected anymore, then that’s a big chunk of my personal appeal to Ashes gone. An "abusive" loot system is part of the game. The relationship between guild members both internal and external is the game. For heroes to exist there must be villains. You are difficult to work with because you refuse to accept the design of the game and insist that those social hooks are thrown away because you need to feel rewarded.
Caeryl wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » All these proposed "solutions" because some people refuse to take initiative, join a guild, and leave said guild if it doesn't fit their standards. I can see why you can't find guilds, you're extremely difficult to work with. What about not wanting easily abused loot systems makes a person hard to work with exactly? So far no one has had an answer as to why the ‘better’ system is one that has easy and wide reaching abuse potential that ultimately will discourage players from wanting to contest open world PvP bosses, as opposed to a system where the game determines loot allocation, where any ‘abuse’ would be minuscule in scale of affect, and ensures meaningful contributors haven’t wasted their time, effort, and gear degradation they sustained to take on difficult, highly competitive content. That is not ‘literally every lvl1 who looked at it gets loot’ for those who are still under the warped impression that the choices are either ‘99% of players get shitall’ (because we include the raids that competed and lost) and ‘I get gold just by standing around’. You have to motivate players to do content and the easiest, fairest way is the have the reward structure handled entirely by the game. Anything more should not be possible to mandate, and should be something the guild comes together organically to do after the fact. Do need-greed in your group chat, bid in discord, let them swap between each other based on their needs. And for the love of everything good, give us what was promised from world bosses years ago and have the Gathering system integrated into harvesting boss materials. If the crafting and PvX systems aren’t interconnected anymore, then that’s a big chunk of my personal appeal to Ashes gone. An "abusive" loot system is part of the game. The relationship between guild members both internal and external is the game. For heroes to exist there must be villains. You are difficult to work with because you refuse to accept the design of the game and insist that those social hooks are thrown away because you need to feel rewarded. Players need to be rewarded, that’s the point. You need to have something that makes people want to do the content at risk of gear degradation, exp debt due to death in PvX, time spent, etc, and if you don’t have that carrot at the end of the stick, you’re going to end up with a game that’s lacking a population willing to do that content. If the goal is 10k players per server, a very hefty goal for a ‘niche’ game, there has to be something keeping players invested in risking their time and resources for what will amount to most often, no reward. If ‘abuse’ was intended, which I definitely think is a bunch of nonsense, then why aren’t combat meters permitted on the basis of players being abusive with the information?
KingDDD wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » All these proposed "solutions" because some people refuse to take initiative, join a guild, and leave said guild if it doesn't fit their standards. I can see why you can't find guilds, you're extremely difficult to work with. What about not wanting easily abused loot systems makes a person hard to work with exactly? So far no one has had an answer as to why the ‘better’ system is one that has easy and wide reaching abuse potential that ultimately will discourage players from wanting to contest open world PvP bosses, as opposed to a system where the game determines loot allocation, where any ‘abuse’ would be minuscule in scale of affect, and ensures meaningful contributors haven’t wasted their time, effort, and gear degradation they sustained to take on difficult, highly competitive content. That is not ‘literally every lvl1 who looked at it gets loot’ for those who are still under the warped impression that the choices are either ‘99% of players get shitall’ (because we include the raids that competed and lost) and ‘I get gold just by standing around’. You have to motivate players to do content and the easiest, fairest way is the have the reward structure handled entirely by the game. Anything more should not be possible to mandate, and should be something the guild comes together organically to do after the fact. Do need-greed in your group chat, bid in discord, let them swap between each other based on their needs. And for the love of everything good, give us what was promised from world bosses years ago and have the Gathering system integrated into harvesting boss materials. If the crafting and PvX systems aren’t interconnected anymore, then that’s a big chunk of my personal appeal to Ashes gone. An "abusive" loot system is part of the game. The relationship between guild members both internal and external is the game. For heroes to exist there must be villains. You are difficult to work with because you refuse to accept the design of the game and insist that those social hooks are thrown away because you need to feel rewarded. Players need to be rewarded, that’s the point. You need to have something that makes people want to do the content at risk of gear degradation, exp debt due to death in PvX, time spent, etc, and if you don’t have that carrot at the end of the stick, you’re going to end up with a game that’s lacking a population willing to do that content. If the goal is 10k players per server, a very hefty goal for a ‘niche’ game, there has to be something keeping players invested in risking their time and resources for what will amount to most often, no reward. If ‘abuse’ was intended, which I definitely think is a bunch of nonsense, then why aren’t combat meters permitted on the basis of players being abusive with the information? The reward is helping your friends, your guild, and/or your node. It's a we not a me game. The social bond formed (or broken) through risk is the carrot that motivates players. This isn't a niche game, it'll have well over a million people playing come launch and if the performance and content is there, the sky is the limit. AoC is the first 3rd person EVE with a large enough budget to actually make that game a reality. Combat meters are not intended as they disproportionately warp class design and decision into a game of numbers. This ultimately shifts the game into a raid or die model, eliminating what AoC wants to be.
Caeryl wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » All these proposed "solutions" because some people refuse to take initiative, join a guild, and leave said guild if it doesn't fit their standards. I can see why you can't find guilds, you're extremely difficult to work with. What about not wanting easily abused loot systems makes a person hard to work with exactly? So far no one has had an answer as to why the ‘better’ system is one that has easy and wide reaching abuse potential that ultimately will discourage players from wanting to contest open world PvP bosses, as opposed to a system where the game determines loot allocation, where any ‘abuse’ would be minuscule in scale of affect, and ensures meaningful contributors haven’t wasted their time, effort, and gear degradation they sustained to take on difficult, highly competitive content. That is not ‘literally every lvl1 who looked at it gets loot’ for those who are still under the warped impression that the choices are either ‘99% of players get shitall’ (because we include the raids that competed and lost) and ‘I get gold just by standing around’. You have to motivate players to do content and the easiest, fairest way is the have the reward structure handled entirely by the game. Anything more should not be possible to mandate, and should be something the guild comes together organically to do after the fact. Do need-greed in your group chat, bid in discord, let them swap between each other based on their needs. And for the love of everything good, give us what was promised from world bosses years ago and have the Gathering system integrated into harvesting boss materials. If the crafting and PvX systems aren’t interconnected anymore, then that’s a big chunk of my personal appeal to Ashes gone. An "abusive" loot system is part of the game. The relationship between guild members both internal and external is the game. For heroes to exist there must be villains. You are difficult to work with because you refuse to accept the design of the game and insist that those social hooks are thrown away because you need to feel rewarded. Players need to be rewarded, that’s the point. You need to have something that makes people want to do the content at risk of gear degradation, exp debt due to death in PvX, time spent, etc, and if you don’t have that carrot at the end of the stick, you’re going to end up with a game that’s lacking a population willing to do that content. If the goal is 10k players per server, a very hefty goal for a ‘niche’ game, there has to be something keeping players invested in risking their time and resources for what will amount to most often, no reward. If ‘abuse’ was intended, which I definitely think is a bunch of nonsense, then why aren’t combat meters permitted on the basis of players being abusive with the information? The reward is helping your friends, your guild, and/or your node. It's a we not a me game. The social bond formed (or broken) through risk is the carrot that motivates players. This isn't a niche game, it'll have well over a million people playing come launch and if the performance and content is there, the sky is the limit. AoC is the first 3rd person EVE with a large enough budget to actually make that game a reality. Combat meters are not intended as they disproportionately warp class design and decision into a game of numbers. This ultimately shifts the game into a raid or die model, eliminating what AoC wants to be. Combat meters do nothing but provide information, which is key if we’re actually going to get ‘only 1% can complete this’ PvE encounters like it was claimed. Rewards can’t just be ‘feel good vibes’. That does not translate into progress for 90%+ of the entire population engaging in what is supposed to be very highly contested PvX. I want Ashes to do well, which means it needs a healthy population engaged with content, which means that content needs to be rewarding. You won’t have those ‘millions of players’ for years past launch if the consistent experience is them getting nothing from successful raids. Why would players stick with it? People play EVE and make actual money off it, it’s also a very stark example of P2W. Ashes isn’t going be like that.
KingDDD wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » All these proposed "solutions" because some people refuse to take initiative, join a guild, and leave said guild if it doesn't fit their standards. I can see why you can't find guilds, you're extremely difficult to work with. What about not wanting easily abused loot systems makes a person hard to work with exactly? So far no one has had an answer as to why the ‘better’ system is one that has easy and wide reaching abuse potential that ultimately will discourage players from wanting to contest open world PvP bosses, as opposed to a system where the game determines loot allocation, where any ‘abuse’ would be minuscule in scale of affect, and ensures meaningful contributors haven’t wasted their time, effort, and gear degradation they sustained to take on difficult, highly competitive content. That is not ‘literally every lvl1 who looked at it gets loot’ for those who are still under the warped impression that the choices are either ‘99% of players get shitall’ (because we include the raids that competed and lost) and ‘I get gold just by standing around’. You have to motivate players to do content and the easiest, fairest way is the have the reward structure handled entirely by the game. Anything more should not be possible to mandate, and should be something the guild comes together organically to do after the fact. Do need-greed in your group chat, bid in discord, let them swap between each other based on their needs. And for the love of everything good, give us what was promised from world bosses years ago and have the Gathering system integrated into harvesting boss materials. If the crafting and PvX systems aren’t interconnected anymore, then that’s a big chunk of my personal appeal to Ashes gone. An "abusive" loot system is part of the game. The relationship between guild members both internal and external is the game. For heroes to exist there must be villains. You are difficult to work with because you refuse to accept the design of the game and insist that those social hooks are thrown away because you need to feel rewarded. Players need to be rewarded, that’s the point. You need to have something that makes people want to do the content at risk of gear degradation, exp debt due to death in PvX, time spent, etc, and if you don’t have that carrot at the end of the stick, you’re going to end up with a game that’s lacking a population willing to do that content. If the goal is 10k players per server, a very hefty goal for a ‘niche’ game, there has to be something keeping players invested in risking their time and resources for what will amount to most often, no reward. If ‘abuse’ was intended, which I definitely think is a bunch of nonsense, then why aren’t combat meters permitted on the basis of players being abusive with the information? The reward is helping your friends, your guild, and/or your node. It's a we not a me game. The social bond formed (or broken) through risk is the carrot that motivates players. This isn't a niche game, it'll have well over a million people playing come launch and if the performance and content is there, the sky is the limit. AoC is the first 3rd person EVE with a large enough budget to actually make that game a reality. Combat meters are not intended as they disproportionately warp class design and decision into a game of numbers. This ultimately shifts the game into a raid or die model, eliminating what AoC wants to be. Combat meters do nothing but provide information, which is key if we’re actually going to get ‘only 1% can complete this’ PvE encounters like it was claimed. Rewards can’t just be ‘feel good vibes’. That does not translate into progress for 90%+ of the entire population engaging in what is supposed to be very highly contested PvX. I want Ashes to do well, which means it needs a healthy population engaged with content, which means that content needs to be rewarding. You won’t have those ‘millions of players’ for years past launch if the consistent experience is them getting nothing from successful raids. Why would players stick with it? People play EVE and make actual money off it, it’s also a very stark example of P2W. Ashes isn’t going be like that. "Vibes" can and do translate for players. Look at any pvp mmo and that's clearly evident. Good examples of this are EVE, Albion, or Darkfall. The gear score = everything mentality is not what this game hopes to achieve. That doesn't mean there isn't solo content, but for group content the reward is for your group not the individual. People will stick with it because they want to see their group progress.
Caeryl wrote: » No one could honestly say that scummy Lootmaster behavior is an intended method of casual conflict, because there is no way for the other party to ‘fight back’.
Caeryl wrote: » Any system that has you fighting for a scrap of reward within your own allied group is a system that’s not going to last.
Caeryl wrote: » There are systems that are meant to cause social conflict, and those that are not.
Noaani wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » There are systems that are meant to cause social conflict, and those that are not. From my perspective, there are no systems that aren't designed to cause conflict. That is just how Ashes is being designed.
Caeryl wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » There are systems that are meant to cause social conflict, and those that are not. From my perspective, there are no systems that aren't designed to cause conflict. That is just how Ashes is being designed. If assignment of all loot is part of that, then there should also be mechanics to raid your own guild’s vaults. That would make it consistent.
Noaani wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » There are systems that are meant to cause social conflict, and those that are not. From my perspective, there are no systems that aren't designed to cause conflict. That is just how Ashes is being designed. If assignment of all loot is part of that, then there should also be mechanics to raid your own guild’s vaults. That would make it consistent. This game is in no way consistent though. I've been saying for years that the game contradicts itself often. I'm not saying you're wrongor anything here, it just isn't what Ashes as a game is being designed to be (from my perspective).
Caeryl wrote: » which, god I can’t imagine anyone enjoying that if they’ve actually witnessed it
