Greetings, glorious testers!
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Solo players need a place in the world, but they have to keep in mind soloing is harder than being in a group. Ashes as a game needs to help players find groups organically through quest design, level up dungeons, character progression etc.
For EU, it will be dominated by East players like Polish, Ukrainians, Czech, Slovak and maybe Russians if they are allowed.
Old (Or current) players from L2 who know how to organize themself on this kind of game, who will have constant groups with drivers to be online pretty much permanently.
Maybe they will be join by some old L2 players from west EU countries too but not so much.
In other words: In real life, we have everything, quite close to that. Challening hard jobs (also challening high taxes, lol), (nearly) everyting you can buy with money, prospering lifes, families, kids, houses, garden, pools, stable countries. Of course that is a hyperbole and there are difference and expections, a lot of them. But in general, middle- and western European players just completely think and play different than Asian, Russian or whatever players are doing. For my personally, that's a reall really good thing, because diversity increases and more games to select from are there (I've played FF14 with satisfation up to a certain point, but in general I dont like the art sytle, I dont like anime, I dont like thick cartoonish cats -> and the "avarage" European guy will cofirm this stereotypical thinking).
We only want entertainment in virtual life, nothing more. Majority of us is not defining fun all the time as "competion" or "investing as much time as possible". There is no e-peen discussion needed. We have all the stuff in real life, we don't need to prove anything within a game or to anybody playing it. This changed 15years ago, so that was only valid in the first 1-5 years of MMOs popping out. But we are not in the 2000 anymore, lol.
There is no need flee in a virtual life and to do exclusion there because of elitist thinking. This is a massive multiplayer online (role play game), an MMO(RPG). That's what it is. And that's why players are attracted and the want to play it in a 3rd person sytle, a high fantasy setting with good graphics, combat, features and both PvE and PvP, for all playing style.
It is NOT for owpvp or pvp-only, it is NOT for raid-groups only, that only the desire of a minority of players that defend their own desire of how to play a game. They will see in the future that it is different.
But, that seems to be or must be also a culture topic, that games or designs like L2 are wanted/desired, because that one, for instance, was not that popular at all in my cultural environment. All of us (99%) played WoW at this time, for sure.
This game if for all player types. All. The restricted view that it is only for owpvp L2 players, is just terribly wrong. And I'm the prove for that and just because 2-3 other keyboard warriros argue in another direction will not change anything. Just switch forum or listing to the internet, so outside the bubble existing here and you will learn. Not "you", Azherae, but others, that are very convinced about their point of view. Well, I'm as well. if Ashes doesn't want to have grey, it will have a dark MMO life - Fine with that. We will see.
This part is essential, because your definition of "satisfaction" is invested time instead of challenging content. You didn't say that, but that's the assumption.
I provide an example for you: I've played arena ranking on Gladiator level, in WoW. I'm not sure what's the name in L2 or whatsoever for this. For this success and highest rewards I invested 4-5h a week. Boring? What the hell are you talking... You seem to have a very limited experience of what a MMO can and should offer so that all attracted players (and Ashes is attracting all of them and NEEDs all of them) find their content with suitable and meaninful rewards. If the game is only a "competion" and "being better than everybody else" all the time, than this is your single definition of it. It's a massive multiplay role play game, it's not the point to make business out of a game by saying: If you invest more time it's not boring.
We agree to disagree, again. All the best.
It is not only a group-competetive-owpvp game. Some minority of players reduce it to this single playing style for them personally. That's all.
That's clear since MMO started to be on the market. But some MMOs lack to respect the players time and dont reward it in a meaningful way. I want Ashes to learn from history and experience and do it better. If a solo player invests his time in his challenging content he should get reasonable stuff. Will a raid-group get more? Yeah sure, but that never was the topic or at least never my (!) point in this discussion.
It's confirmed hiere. All playstyles are wanted and needed.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Playstyles
I don't want to discuss with other persons feeling and thinking that the game is their owpvp-whatsoever-copy from an old, aged or dead game, because it's not.
It's very much an open world game that involves the possibility of pvp. That said, ashes should focus on getting people to organically find guilds and nodes that enjoy content catering to each player.
The real question solo players should ask is not how am I rewarded, but how does ashes help me find a guild.
Just because investing more time makes you more successful doesn't mean you have to invest more time to have fun. You can have fun with the success you and your allies get without reaching "the end," or in this case "the top." Shouldn't you in particular be even more fine with that concept, because you're so content with your real life that you don't need to compete in video games?
You can still get rewards for the challenges you overcome.
So I just don't see the problem with waiting 6 months for a really cool reward, while more ambitious players who invest more time get it earlier, and you get to participate in the economy that makes it possible.
The challenging gameplay itself is the *actual* content you're enjoying after all, right, not the dopamine rush of having high-level equipment? It's also very rewarding to beat someone who has better gear than you.
If your primary concern is a pure measurement of skill, League of Legends and Valorant are just a few clicks away. Or Monster Hunter or whatever, if you prefer PvE. Part of the MMO experience is having diverse power levels in the community, that has always been that way, otherwise it wouldn't need to be its own genre, and that's what personal growth in MMOs is centred around. If everyone who plays for 3 months and knows how to beat a dungeon gets top-tier gear, why have gear tiers at all?
Most of the content will not allow no-lifers to have unlimited progress as far as gear and wealth is concerned. The time-cost-efficient stuff will be limited, so it will still take a substantial amount of time for most of them to get it.
And there will be enough clans to keep the other clans in check, and you should be able to find allies among one of them. Doesn't mean you have to group and play with them, just that they'll be there to counterbalance the other no-lifers with strong gear.
I promised I'd stay out of this thread, but I feel like these final clarifications are innocuous enough.
Not even my kinda unhinged Topic in which i was already gloating about the coming mental breakdowns and Outbursts over Ashes of Creation's Success in a few Years was this cringe however.
( Okay, maybe it was. lol)
How is this Topic here however even a thing ? This Game is the type of Game the FARTHEST AWAY from being any kind of "Solo"-Player Experience. An MMO should never be able to get played Solo. One should always need to have at least Two Friends with themselves - at minimum.
I pray to the Others that Alpha Two comes quickly and be it just a Feeling and Illusion until it is actually here. Everything that will replace this Cringe Festival of a Topic with actual "Gameplay" (Testing) Experience is welcome.
I mean, i see what this Delay does to the Heads of other People. Especially a certain Copium-Addict.
I understand. It sucks. lol
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
There's stuff for Solo players to do, but Ashes doesn't really cater to Solo play.
Ashes heavily favors Group play.
I'm pretty sure no one here is arguing that Ashes target audience is only L2 players.
But, Intrepid is not really trying to entice PvE EQ/WoW Solo players.
You are not the proof of anything. You have interest in a game that heavily favors Group play over Solo play.
Everyone here understands that. But...
Ashes has a very niche audience.
Ashes is not made for everyone.
---Steven
You can have friends with you in the game and all still be playing Solo.
MMO doesn't mean always joined together in a Group.
Ashes has some Solo content.
But, encounters are balanced for an 8-person Group with one of each Primary Archetype.
And Stevens primary goal/purpose for the game is 500 v 500 PvP battles.
As I've said, it's important, that the invested time is respected from the game, therefore from the developers. If casuals (and/or solo-players) get their rewards, everything ist fine. It's a pointless discussion, except your are in the meaning, that casuals or solo-players shouldn't get something because they are... casuals and solo-players. In this case a discussion is worth it, because I see this completely differet. If a player invests his time, he should get a reward.
This is exactly what I've said - but 6 month are of course way to long.
Artificial example: A pvx open world raid boss (like firebrand) drops a legendary sword (name it like you wish). In Ashes few items, or no items, will be soulbound. So, it's tradeble or the player that gets it can seel it at the auction house. Here meaningfull rewarding solo-content comes in place. The solo player can do stuff to increase his gold/glint/coins/whatsoever, by questing, gathering (and selling it), crafting (and selling crafted items) to be in a position to go to the auction house buying that legendary sword, because he is not attending open world raids that perhaps take 4-5 hours (onyl example) if pvp fights are occuring. This is a reasonable cycle, this Ashes must provide, that also a casual player experiences character progress - here gear-wise. He will of course need more time for that, but in the end, he will have his (gear) reward. That's important, that's the carrot, that's needed, otherwise a lot of players will leave the game soon.
Or, to say in in other words: Like every solid MMO out there is doing it (except GW2, see below, that's a different approach, but some players like it)
Well again, you are wrong, which is again just due to lack of experience. In PvE, you are right. In PvP that's untrue. Only pvp cowards like the fact that they are just stronger because they have better gear, lol. Every serious pvp player knows, that the only real challenge is, to beat somebody which equals in gear and skill. This is right and essential in small scale pvp but also valid in large scale pvp, because overgeared zerg-guilds otherwise will dominate everything to hard and to fast.
Just take Guild Wars 2 as completely different example: There is no hard gear-progression. If you reach max level and invest some time, you are at the top. If you do a break for 3 month, you are still. Nobody else is at better gear or if only with a very small percentage. If you join PvP fights like sPvP in GW2, all players get the same gear at start. There is not gear-difference. So, what to say - I would propose that you collect some experience from the market and the several MMOs out there to get on the same level for our discussion.
That's a good thing, otherwise developers can handle this with mechanics, time-gating for instance. That's also done in other MMOs that the community is not separated too much, because it decreases the overall health of the game. And, it will make the game to easy for no-lifers, because they will roll-over other players by facerolling their keyboard, which is not fun at all, but boring.
They acutally changed nothing.
Steven is obsessed with constant competition, Risk v Reward and massive PvP battles.
And the Ashes target audience is MMORPG fans who love constant competition, Risk v Reward and massive PvP battles.
Players who don't love all that will probably end up playing some other MMO.
Steven used to say that MMORPGs need all player types - when Jeffrey Bard was still Lead Game Designer.
The last two years, as the game design has become more niche with the absence of Jeffrey, Steven has been frequently saying, "We always said that Ashes is not made for everyone. And we're OK with that."
And yes, I also hope there are enough players. I dont care which player type, I only care that its a mature community. Its the most important. Mature, friendly, supporting. This is the most important aspect for a long living MMO. Fun content, progression and no degression, content offer in PvP and PvE for everybody and a mature community.
There is always a choice. Whether you choose to choose a choice that was presented or not is entirely up to you.
Hell choosing to log in or not is a choice.
The fact the flagging system is the was it is was a choice made by Intrepid.
I dunno what you think "mature" means.
This game is targeted at OW PvPers with a heavy focus on Risk v Reward and massive PvP Sieges and Wars.
I would not expect the gameplay to be "mature" especially with all the trash-talking I've seen the devs doing while they play games. I expect the gamers who play Ashes to be ruthless, rather than friendly and supporting.
Outside of the game, the people here mostly tend to be mature, friendly, supporting. Yes.
While playing the game, their player characters will be highly competitive, combative, conniving and ruthless... and mostly focused on PvP, looting and massive PvP Sieges, Wars and Caravan Raids.
What did you just say that should inspire any sort of change in Ashes's design directive or that you think I would disagree with?
Ignoring everything I said about allying with others and supporting others to reach the same strength as those overgeared meanies.
Also ignoring everything I've said about the fact that this is the whole point of the genre. Otherwise, again, why not just go play an arena battle game? Why be interested in a game with any amount of sandbox elements, if you strictly want fully organised, perfectly balanced themepark rides?
Again, then why make players farm equipment at all? That sounds like a completely pointless time sink, if all you do is farm gear to qualify to be able to do other stuff. How is THAT not disrespectful of the player's time?
The whole point of competition for resources is that some people can get more and better resources than others. [Resources here includes crafting materials and rarer, stronger equipment.]
Then you can attempt to still beat those people by outskilling them despite their advantage, or you can ally up with other people who invest as much time and effort as those opponents, so you can keep up with them and use your skill to lead your allies to victory using their resources.
By comparison to that interactive power dynamic with decisionmaking with depth, the Guild Wars game loop seems even more soulless and meaningless than WoW or ESO, which says quite a lot.
That's not the point, especially not in this thread, where it's all about the the question and concerns: Will solo players be able to play meaningful content?
And you are permanently ignoring that the market of MMO genres changed. I'm not sure why you think a MMO is like it was 20 years ago. Because they are not. No one single MMO out there. And that's because the market (players) changed, and so the games. Sure, you can build a mobile phone which is no smart phone, but that doesnt' mean that that's a good decision or mobile design nowaydays. Combining features and set them to a new level, yes, that's success. So, if a MMO wants to be a good one, it should combine solo- and group content. And Ashes is promising this, as it is promising PvE and PvP content all the time. Developer speech and wiki quotes are full with this information, so confirming it.
Playing solo has - again... - nothing to do with the situation, that this player is also playing group content or within guilds. Seriously, nothing. It's all about: Can a solo player play solo because there is a) meaningful content for it and b) meaningful rewards respecting his invested time. That's all about it, and solid and good MMOs adress both of it, because the markets demands it.
Because it's a completely different game/genre missing several other MMO parts. Balanced/structured pvp is one important part of a solid MMO, but not the only one. There also must be meaningful solo-content for all those types of players, that are doing some group and some solo stuff. It's just a wet dream that every player always will play within groups or 40man raids all the time. It's untrue, this will not happen.
Ashes is combinging sandbox and themepark, nodes for instance are excaclty designed for this purpose.
So, the players are not interested in your "sandbox" elements, but themepark elements or something in between. The market for "sandbox" only is just too small and not succesful.
Steven knows that:
Because of character progression. Many MMOs address gear-progression as character progression. Not all MMOs/games are doing this. GW2 is one example.
The more interesting question is, again: Why should a serious pvp player even think about being the better player or getting fun out of it just because he facerolls over other players just because of his better gear?
In Ashes there will be arena pvp gameplay. That's were you can be a hero, not in owpvp facerolling in 40man-raids over 15 other players running around.
If this is the aspect some players are gathering their fun than it's their personal attitude and (quite) chlidish behavior, why should this be the main goal and focus of any MMO or PvX game that is adresses to an aged, mature community, so MMO veterans, searching for a game that combines good feature of other MMOs out there - which is promised from Ashes on different levels and for several features. It's not an pvp only game, that's just untrue.
It's the MOST respectful approach if invested time leads to better gear, independent from what content is played and how this content is played. If gear-progression is within game-design (the carrot, so not like GW2, where the carrot is better looking gear, but not better gear stat/attribute-wise), than that's the only respect the game can provide to the player. Its of course not respectful if a player plays 6 months getting nothing or not enough rewarding stuff. That's pointless then, because why should he even play?
You are obviously mixing things up. There is the question about the carrot and the character progression. And there is the topic about balanced, serious and structured pvp. If you mix those things up, it's of course a mess.
More gear is qualifying you for more content, this is the common approach and it's working well. Again, one expection (GW2) is proving this rule.
Sure, that's why it's important that also solo players can gather ressources to get character- and gear-progression. Why should they pick up even one flower, if they will not get a profit and reward out of it later on?
No, that's just because your lack of imagination that a MMO also works without gear-progression in the known / old-fashioned way, instead of having played GW1 or 2, like me, getting the experience (and I've also played the for sure not soulless and meaningless WoW) that this is also working and is perfect especially for players that don't like the FOMO-factor. If you stop playing GW2 for 2 month and come back you still are in a position to play together with everybody else, because the gear-difference is low or not existing, but other players maybe will have that cooler fire sword effect or better looking armor, because you can increase your style/cosmetics, but not you stats/attribute (you can, but with minor increases). That's important because quality and skill counts, not "I've played 15h a day and that's why I'm the virutal pvp hero". That's childish and crap, of course, so it respects all players, not only the frequent players (that sometimes define themselves around their virtual ingame achievements, which is sad enough ofc).
So, if you like being better than others because you've invested more time before and therefore you can facerool over other players, then that's only your personal access and attitude to this aspect of balanced pvp. For me it's the most boring thing to fight against other players that are lower in gear or skill.
You know the first pillar of Ashes? Do you?
1. Engaging and immersive story.
You know that is is not played in 40 main raids, right? You know that this highly likely will not be played within pvp-content? It's the first design pillar of the game. That's all about high fantasy with races, classes, story, lore, roleplaying (it's an MMORPG) and much more. This, first pillar, is by fact attracting also or especially solo players. But that's not the only aspect.
And Ashes wants solo players and needs casual players.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Solo_players
We just don't know yet, if the designs and rewards fit to that promise. And that's the reason of this entire thread. There is no need to answer with "but play in groups", because that's known and clear, but not the topic. The topic is: Is there meaningful solo content, as promised, that will reward the players and respect their investet time, not only a lot of time and only by playing group- or raid content.
Is there meaningful content for Summoners, as promised?
Is there meaningful content for Religions and Social Orgs, as promised?
Summoners? Sure, or rogue. Fine class discussions, why not?
Not sure what's your intention to ask such questions.
This thread is about concerns regarding solo-content and solo-players. If that's not interesting for you, nobody forces you to step in.
If there would be a rogue thread, I would step in, because I like the rogue class in MMOs. It's fully without relevance whether the rogue is just showing up in late Alpha (which seems to be the situation) or not, it's all about sharing opinions and discuss topics about the game itself, not the Alpha 2 or whatever development stage.
GW 2 sucks for a lot of reasons.
Piss poor class design being chief among them.
A day one noob competing with someone that has been there since day one ...... Really you call that good ?
Why stay if the best you can ever hope for is a new look?
Homogenized classes and world is super boring to me. Level scaling so no matter what you do it is all the same is really bad design. IMO. Lots of people like the complete lack of challenge that single player games like GW2 provide and that is ok.
I think it is highly disrespectful of the players to ask them to play a game where no matter what they do it is all the same challenge level.
I started playing GW1 . It was my first MMO was ok as a starter point but I put grew it.
Played GW2 for two weeks and tried really hard to like it not understanding why I didn't until I understood nothing mattered. Just a bunch of shaved cats running in circles throwing flaming poo at a loot pinata or each other.
I uninstalled and moved on.
Sure. People will also be pissed if Summoner and Rogue don't make it into the release as promised.