What are your 'class fantasies' for the 64 classes

Part of the discussion over augments and classes hinges on peoples expectations for how a class will work. Most players have a conception of what a Paladin or a Necromancer are mechanically and what they bring to a party composition. And while the primary/secondary archetype model is a overall accurate description of what they bring it lacks the detail or focus that would be a description of a skill kit and how the player would tactically behave in battle.

I'm brainstorming simple tactical descriptions of each class and the core elements of its kit which distinquish it from either the base or secondary archetype. I'm seeking to think of a means by which the characteristics of the base class can be most easily bent to serve the role of the secondary. For example how would a Bard act as a Tank, could the Bard just littlerally be able to take a lot of damage in the traditional sense, yes but that's excedinlgy dull. On the otherhand a Bard that memzerizes oponents and causes them to stop attacking and thus neutralizing their aggression is achiving the goal of a Tank in a Bardic way, AND fuffilling a coherent class fantasy impled by the name 'Siren'. Package that into a short description and you get

Bard/Tank - Sirens are able to produce such aluring performances that enemies at short range are compelled to follow the Siren in a trance state for a limited distance. So long as the tranced arn't attacked they will stop attacking and can be lead away. In this way they controls and nulifies enemy aggression while providing a way to pull apart enemy groups.

Other examples

Mage/Fighter - Battle Mages specialize in touch delivered magical attacks and short range fan blast effects. Combined with the robustness to survive in the front lines of battle the Battle Mage is excellent at confronting clustered frontline combatants who typically lack good elemental resistance.

Rogue/Cleric - Cultists focus on long casting time high impact dark rituals cast while in stealth. Their rituals can empower themselves and allies with short lived temporary Health and lifesteal abilities to unleash in deadly surprise attacks if they can complete their castings before being detected.

Summoner/Mage - Spellmancers summon elemental themed minions which deal elemental damage and can use their minions as the location for creating AoE spell effects by dispelling the minion in a burst of magical energy. Minions felled in battle by the enemy likewise burst making them all effectivly walking magical bombs thrown at the enemy ranks.

What similar class fantasies can other folks imagine?

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Azherae

Some data from a group member to continue from your last post, Lodrig.

The person generally plays 'Suppression Mage with Support options' when there is no Summoner, 'Support Summoner with some Suppression' when a game allows for that, and when neither is available, tends to 'offtank'.

For her, all three of these come from the same 'ideal', but she doesn't consider them all to be the same 'class Fantasy'. She will play Mage in A2 until Summoner becomes available if Mage feels similar enough to Throne and Liberty Staff play (I don't expect it will).

In TL the Suppression type Mage build focuses on Ice and Lightning, but less on AoE and Fire, because TL, like Ashes, forces you to choose. TL Augments/Skill Specializations also have a cost, so she's forced to choose very specifically.

In Ashes, if she were to play Mage primary, it would be with 'whichever secondary allowed for more suppression and survivability'. So Mage/Tank if that one has good defenses and methods of forcing the enemy to do certain things, or Mage/Ranger if it improved soft CC enough. But what she often wants to play is something like Mage/Fighter, because it's a roundabout form of suppression.

If you're doing good Mage damage, and your opponent tries to respond to this by gap-closing to you and going for an attack, 'switching to Fighter mode' is a great option in many games. They're probably already damaged. You might have had time to set up some magical hazard at your position naturally. Most of the time, people are counting on 'killing the Mage before the Mage kills them' by getting close, since Mages tend to have bigger, slower attacks and long cooldowns. A Mage that has strong close-range burst damage when you finally do close in on them, is not an easy target.

You can counter them by 'refusing to play their game', not getting close, therefore 'removing' their close range damage from the equation. This is what she wants. To be 'a Mage that gets to suppress the enemy without generally being in danger because it's too risky to go stop her', or to be 'a massive distraction requiring the attention of multiple people to kill'.

Summoner options take this to the next level, if the Summoner class is good, they get to suppress like and you can't stop them without multiple people.

In FFXI this means she plays Summoner with subjob Red Mage for extra debuffs, weird defensive options, etc.
In Predecessor she can play Gadget, Aurora, Dekker, and Argus, depending on the enemy team.

To relate to 'class fantasy' then and sum up all that.

Her goal is Suppression, Support, 'Sacrifice' when necessary.
She has multiple 'classes' she can use to achieve this, and each has their own class fantasy toward achieving that goal, and different weaknesses that she chooses to accept.
When a class/character has weaknesses that don't make sense to her goal, she dislikes that one even if they can theoretically be built to do it.

This is the way in which she generally cares and the way she defines 'class fantasy' to an extent. If a class is the most 'archetypal' at doing a thing, it means they have some flexibility, that members of that class are similar but not always quite the same, and 'changing small parts' doesn't stop them from being able to do it.

A Summoner/Tank should be able to choose different ways to 'Summon Tanky/Tank Assisting things'. The specifics of how each one 'tanks' should vary. It's fine if a Summoner/Mage has like, 'one' Tank summon that 'can only tank this specific way'. But a Brood Warden should have options to achieve whatever the goal of 'A Summoner that wants to Tank' is.

Ofc the same goes for me as a Shadow Disciple. If I don't have options for Rogue-like survivability and positioning and debuffs, then I'm not much different than a High Priest that 'happens to spec into survivability'. Obviously the 'Survivability focused High Priest' and I will take the same survivability skills, but I would probably have more of an option to go 'wait, maybe I don't need this one and can use it for a debuff instead'.

Lodrig

Another good set of class fantasies that get to the heart of folks intended playstyle. These are certainly the kinds of things we want to examine and brainstorm class concepts which accomadate such players as it is likely to be a common desire.

Unless I am terribly misunderstaind what it ment by 'suppression' (I take it to mean things other then damage) it sounds like were looking for something like battlefield shaping which constrains the oponent in a broad sense, keeps them 'at bay' and not able to execute their attacks. Neither dose it sounds like your looking for stuns, roots and other hard movement impairing effects that are intended for immediate combo into damage, but rather things to silence or zone out enemies such as say casting a zone of Mud on the ground which slows movement. Note that one of the problems I see with the current Mage that Intrepid has shown off so far is a lack of utility and flexibility, it's entirely a 'blaster', maybe they intend for mage derived classes to provide that, but I don't like that their is no hint of it in the base archetype.

Examining the mage concepts I have their isn't a perfect match for what your looking for (which means I should probably rework them) i think Mage/Bard might have some potential to be that classic Red Mage style by adding a lot of utility effects to it's spells, it's one of the combos I have next to nothing for other then that I think just adding ally buffing to be kind of dull for a mage to do and it's more interesting for the teamwork to come in effects produced by spells. The only concept I have here is a little quirk i called 'spell juggling' in which spells can be cast but 'held' indefintily in a few slots and which manifest as physically juggled orbs that can then be released instantly thus providing a bit of flexibility and deceptivness, still that's no where near a fleshed out class concept.

Battle Mage I've always felt should fit into the role of human flame-thrower, aka short range AoE caster, that forces them to fight at the front lines and they are a little less squishy in exchange. I'm against a long range caster who can just 'go into melee' effectivly because it is either denying counter play to the oponent or useless the rest of the time, aka 'Bayonet on a Howitzer'. If a Battle Mage retreats from the frontline they have to stop dealing damage, which is I think fair. So overall this dosn't look to fit your needs because it should like still being a safe backline caster is what your looking for.

Mage/Tank in my mind is a mage specilized in Abjuration spells, Shields, magic armor augmentation etc and can do some limited tanking with an ability to draw in any arrow fire (like vacume it up to hit their shield), and the ability to use Blink on the enemy to pull them in. If defence is a top priority this would be the type of mage secondary to go for, but it offers very little in the suppression space as it has reduced damage output and lacks any hard CC. This mage retains long range AoE spells but launches them at a lower rate due to mana needing to be spent to keep up defences, thouse defencse take time to put up so they can't just pop them the moment someone dives them, if they get greedy like that their gonna feel the hurt like any normal squishy mage, and they don't have any short range damage options either.

The Bard/Tank Siren sounds like a reasonable fit for your friend wants as it's got a strong mezmerizing effect which can halt enemy from attacking then displace them while maintaining standard Bard support effectivenss. They need to close to short range to use Mez but this is more of an in and out abduction if used offensivly and if held in reserve it makes it very dangerous to try to dive on the Siren even if they are semingly exposed, and becase Mezmarize is area efecting bringing multiple attackers is even more foolish.

The Mage/Summoner Warlock I imagine having a combination of crude inteligence on projectiles (homes in on enemy) and long duration static battlefield obstacles like a Fire Wall or a Fire spitting turret. This seems like a good basis to distinquish them from Summoner/Mage which produces stait up walking elementals which go right up and start bashing the enemy. This again might be an option if they are confortable with static placement of suppressive obstales as their means of play.

Amoungst Summoner concepts, the Summoner/Bard Enchanger is likely to have strong buffing abilities which could be cast onto either the summons or allies. Hypothetically depending on how Summoning is capped and if enchangments utilize that same cap the class could skip summoning all toghether and go pure buffing but that's likely to be a situational. Summoners are generally an archetype that I see as having the role of target saturation, to put lots of things on the battlefield that need to be considered and which will pressure the enemy from all sides, I'm very much hoping they can have up in the range of 5 summons (obvously on the weaker side) at a time.

Lastly for the Shadow Desiple I'd been thinking along the lines of a Debuffing oriented kind of Cleric. I have a hard time accepting a stealth cleric, even briefly for escaping attack as this would seemingly deny nearly all counterplay options to the opossing side as well as much of the purpose of Tanks and defensive classes who's job centers around protecting thouse vital sustainment classes in the rear. Clerics always have the inherent 'escape' option of self healing so adding an additional option would seemingly make them nigh unkillable. Given that stealth would be OP and burst damage potential wasted I felt the only viable design is around debuffing, these would be alt effects on heals when cast on oponents and would have a kind of 'Inquisitor' (better name frankly) theme, things like making enemies take damage when ever they deal it, even DoT's would be an option, think divine justice/vengence theme.

Note that if your are looking for Stealth on a caste I think Mage/Rogue would be a reasonable option. I imagine them having a near total elimination of the 'windup' animtions for spellcasting so an enemy is denied any telegraphing of the spell type or when it's gonna drop. And if they stand still for a bit they can stealth/camoflage and retain it while casting, but it breaks upon the spell being released or someone getting close to them. The intent is for them to be able to do their mage blasting from the backlines without being nearly as easy to spot and shoot at or dive on so they can avoid that, but if someone dose get into the rear, such as a real Rogue looking to stab them, they will go down, essentially its stealth as a prevention of attack rather then escape from attack.

Azherae

Your observations bring us directly to the 'flaw' in the 64 classes system being done the way it is if the level of freedom that I'm used to, isn't the goal.

Even if Intrepid's goal was to strongly encourage a BattleMage to be a close range caster, there is almost no way to do that within the design we've been told, because they never have to Augment anything.

For 'preventing me from playing Seris', that's easier, yes, just say 'no Stealth allowed on specific Cleric Primary Skills'. That results in me not playing, but it's not infeasible, at least. The issue with it would be that the 'Stealth/Misdirection/Whatever' augment school would still seem like it should give Cleric something in that space, leaving a dissatisfied feeling even for people who aren't as picky as me.

As for my group member's interest in Mage, I don't think it would involve a rework because she's really not a Mage. She's a Summoner who just 'has to make do in games where she doesn't get to summon' (and honestly she loses interest pretty fast).

But I think that any Mage options in Ashes of Creation shouldn't really focus on being the specific type of suppression mage that she will be settling for in A2, because in the end, the entire point of having a Summoner Archetype is so Summoners can play it, and the fact that it will be different enough from Mage for her to not want to play Mage, is a good thing.

I do agree that Mage seems to be lacking a bit of the 'Control' aspects, and I also agree that maybe it is going to be the Mage/Bard players who expect to have more of them, but they will always have the option to play 'long range blaster', since they are not obligated to change.

tl;dr Enforcing weaknesses that aren't inherent to your Primary Archetype, in this system, can't be relied on.

Dygz

We don't Augment because we have to, we Augment because we want to.

A player who wants their Mage to have more CC than Mage/Mage offers can choose a Mage/x combo that provides more CC.
Likely there will be other CC Augments available from the other categories where we can acquire Augments:
Social Orgs, Religions, Races and Nodes.

According to the Ashes design, Cleric/Rogue will be able to apply Augments from the Stealth School on Cleric Active Skills.

Stealth Augments from the Rogue secondary archetype will incorporate stealth modifiers into a class' primary skills.
There will be counter-Stealth mechanics for sure. That's just a natural balancing act of Stealth. But additionally with regards to Secondary Classes, one of those aspects is Augments represent the Secondary Class and some of the- one of the most fundamental aspects of a Rogue is Stealth whether it be actual Invisibility or the ability to sneak around in the shadows or something. So you can almost certainly count on the fact that should you go a Secondary Class of Rogue that there will be the ability to influence your action items from your Primary Class with the Stealth modifier.

Steven

Lodrig

Azherae wrote: »

Your observations bring us directly to the 'flaw' in the 64 classes system being done the way it is if the level of freedom that I'm used to, isn't the goal.

Even if Intrepid's goal was to strongly encourage a BattleMage to be a close range caster, there is almost no way to do that within the design we've been told, because they never have to Augment anything.

For 'preventing me from playing Seris', that's easier, yes, just say 'no Stealth allowed on specific Cleric Primary Skills'. That results in me not playing, but it's not infeasible, at least. The issue with it would be that the 'Stealth/Misdirection/Whatever' augment school would still seem like it should give Cleric something in that space, leaving a dissatisfied feeling even for people who aren't as picky as me.

As for my group member's interest in Mage, I don't think it would involve a rework because she's really not a Mage. She's a Summoner who just 'has to make do in games where she doesn't get to summon' (and honestly she loses interest pretty fast).

But I think that any Mage options in Ashes of Creation shouldn't really focus on being the specific type of suppression mage that she will be settling for in A2, because in the end, the entire point of having a Summoner Archetype is so Summoners can play it, and the fact that it will be different enough from Mage for her to not want to play Mage, is a good thing.

I do agree that Mage seems to be lacking a bit of the 'Control' aspects, and I also agree that maybe it is going to be the Mage/Bard players who expect to have more of them, but they will always have the option to play 'long range blaster', since they are not obligated to change.

tl;dr Enforcing weaknesses that aren't inherent to your Primary Archetype, in this system, can't be relied on.

Well I've been saying that I don't think the augments will work like most think for a while now, because the idea of applying a broad concept like 'stealth' augmentation to every active skill in the game just sounds so cludge.

Like what would happen when you use said skill that has been stealth augmented? a brief 1 second stealth period? So your character is blinking in and out like a lightbulb each time they cast it? If you can do that with every skill then you would be constantly stealthed and clearly OP, while if you do it to just one skill it's nearly useless. Thus the only way in my mind to satisfyingly integrate a splash of stealth into a class is to modify a few skills selectivly with longer term stealth and cap it so the design can actually have a clue as to how much total time in stealth is going to be possible and can balance around that. Basically Stealth is so nonlinear of an effect that it demands a wholistic approatch and this is why games always do it as a class feature.

Your Seris in Paladins is a good example of this, because MOBA type games have such a small number of abilities they generally have 1 stealth ability at most within a kit and it can be long enough to be meaningfull but also be on a cooldown which gives the oponent a clear counter play, bait out the ability and attack when its on cooldown. I'm assming Rogue base archetype will have a skill like that, probably with some support skills to help extend, maintain, re-stealth etc (smoke bomb), and the most I can see happening is that having a rogue secondary will augment a single skill with a lesser version of that. This general principle would apply to a lot of things, for example I don't think you can add CC to every skill using Tank secondary, or healing to every skill using a cleric secondary, such things would be either excessive if applied to ~20 active skills or nearly pointlessly weak individually if balanced for a senario in which every skill is augmented.

I don't foresee any problem with character 'not augmenting' because I foresee a tree of nodes which modify your active skills like the circle nodes on the skill tree and it can just be mandatory to allocate your augmentation points into said tree. And if the net effect is to be more powerfull then a lvl 25 player, which should be really easy to do cause your final class is the 25-50 progression then not augmenting is basically the equivilent of not leveling up. And in that process some weaknesses can be introduced in exchange for the more narrow power gains that define the class. It can even be done as a kind of passive when the class is slected so it's already baked in before your first augment is selected.

Also to clarify are you saying your not interested in playing a Shadow Disciple if it not enough like a Seris or not interested in placy AoC at all?

P.S. Dygz your already on permant ignore by me (something your probably used to on this forum) and none of your commentary in this thread is ontopic or welcome.

Dygz

Secondary Class Augments may be applied to any Skill, but it is possible that some specific Augments may be locked to specific abilities.
--- Steven

Azherae

Since most of your last post addressed Shadow Disciple directly I'll briefly give my data there.

1. I'm not interested in playing a Shadow Disciple with low amounts of Misdirection, but it does not all need to be Stealth, just being untargetable by pressing Tab or lowering enemy Accuracy/Raising Evasion is enough for me.
2. I believe that augments will be tuned somewhat toward the ability they are attached to, but I don't think this is difficult, and sometimes it would be slightly funny, like giving the Mend Ability from the Cleric showcase as a 'grants Stealth for 1.5-2s'. It's funny because I think you can see the little sparkler that moves to the person to heal them.
3. In the end, I don't actually agree that making a character with a fairly large amount of stealth access is a big deal in an MMORPG, nor do I agree that 'many short bursts of stealth' is 'clearly OP', but I'm a Throne and Liberty enjoyer, and in that game it requires you to be attacked in a specific way to 'keep using it' like that...

We all have our opinions on what is fun or fair in games, though. This is exactly the sort of thing that would be delaying Rogue or Augments. I say 'let me blink in and out of sight constantly like in Neverwinter/TL' and you say 'that's clearly OP'.

It might be really OP in Ashes, it might not.

Lodrig

1) Misdirection is a broader concept so it presents a lot more potential for counterplay. Maybe one of the benifits is that the Disiple dons't telegraph their heal castings and it's not obvious to the enemy when or even who they are healing.

2) I'm of the opinion that any kind of compelling class fantasy will require fine tuning to the point that calling all the different effects that 'an augment' has when applied to multiple abilites might as well just be thought of as distinct passive modifiers. If they choose to present them as a single entitiy it will basically just be a masking.

3) I think I made it clear in my last post that for 'short bursts' my concern was that a character could just keep procing these short durations of stealth to overlap and achive constant stealth. If that was achivable while also healing then the effect would be an untargetable cleric who is healing the party and that combination is what I felt would be OP.

Obviously we won't know whats OP untill it's tested, but feel I can smell a system which is 'unbalancable' from a long way off. One of the danger signs is a system where all or nothing is incentivized. And one in which you scatter small amounts of augment provied stealth across many seperate abilities is such a system due to the non-linear effects of 'stealth stacking'.

Its a bit like how many games used to have armor act as a percentage damage reduction and you could just stack armor to unlimited levels. As soon as players can find enough armor they stack it to 100% and they break the system or atleast establish a dominant meta which collapses player choice. That's why most games now use diminishing return armor systems which can never reach 100%, such systems are far less likely to break when a new armor item gets added to the mix.

Stealth systems are like thouse old armor systems, brittle and hard to balance. Though I really hope that Intrepid either avoids scattered stealth effects from augments (instead relying on a singular stealth ability per class with Rogue secondary), OR adopts some kind of diminishing returns stealth system in which stealth is a number which gets compared with an oponent/s perception number. The fact they intend for Ranger 'Camoflage' might be a start along that path. If a Rogue secondary gives you camoflage rather then 'true stealth' then it would go a long way to adressing my concerns because camo provides universally accessible counterplay by just closing distance.

Lodrig

I finished my line of Tank based class fantasies as well

Tank/Bard Argent
No class can command as much attention as the Ardent bringing wide and pervasive taunts and debuffs which compell oponents to attack them. They simultaniously inspire allies with cooldown reductions which ramps up with their courage level.

This is a straitforward emphasis on the Taunting aspects of a Tank, imagine that your tank has a really sharp tough and drops devestating 'yo mama' insults. They also give a simple universally useful buff to allies as they won't have a bunch of different options to choose from.

Tank/Cleric Paladin
Bring a number of single target rescue heals ideal for frontline usage as well as Radiant damage blasts and debuff removals to support their team. Courage can be used to heal yourself and nearby allies. Paladins specialize in having the highest shield blocking rate amoungst Tanks.

Basic expectations filled here, healing is short range to prevent them from over shadowing Cleric primaries, they can 'rescue' other but not sustain them long term.

Tank/Fighter Knight
At the center of the fray able to attack all adjacent enemies with wide circular swipes and to keep them engaging him alone with powerfull pulls leashes and trips on anyone trying to disengage. The greater their momentum and the more crowded they are the harder they are to hit allowing them to thrive in situations which would doom any other warrior.

Originally came up with this concept for Fighter/Tank but felt it fit better here. Also I think the names of the classes should swap cause Dreadnaught sound a lot more like a Tank (specifically a huge battleship) and it litterally means "No fear". While to me and Knight more like a Fighter. Note that this concept area attacks can give it high damage output when multiple oponents are hit, it is low damage rate to an individual so not a major kill threat, but are instead very disruptive.

Tank/Mage Spellshield
Masters of magical absorbtion the Spellshild can use Grit to draw all nearby magical attacks to himself and absorb half of magical damage recived to restore their mana with the rest generating Courage as normal. At full Courage they can release a huge burst of magical damage back at their attackers by consuming all their current Courage and Mana.

I litterally got this idea from an Isekai that came out this year, the character Gibungle from Handyman in another world dose exactly this 'absorbing' damage and then blasting it back out. I modified this to be magic damage specific to be more situational. In most other aspects its a normal tank, but with anti-magic properties which I think fits a good niche and foils a common 'blast the tank with magic' which is a common goto solution.

Tank/Ranger Warden
Able to mark one foe that they will reive incressed damage reduction from and one ally (potentially themself) that will recive a damage bonus against the marked foe. They gain improved range to offensive abilities along with an enemy attack and movement speed slowing aura with the expenditure of courage. The Warden is a flexible class quite capable of soloing allbeing it slowly due to a modest damage output, and pairs well with a single DPS partner who can recive their mark.

This is probably the instance where I think I would put money on Intrepid already planning something like this as their is a D&D/Pathfinder class that dose exactly this kind of dual mark thing called Warden and given the way Ranger already works on Marks this is logical combination of the two.

Tank/Rogue Nightshield
Specializing in moving rapidly to defend alies the Nightshield can rush to the aid of an ally at the speed of darkness avoiding all collision to interpose themselves between any foe and their intended target. They are also masters of riposte and can reflect not only damage back at their attackers but any debuff effects back onto thouse who cast them and well as present a fearsomeness so potent that enemies will back away reflexivly. The Nightshield can proetct allies over a wider area then any other tank type but only against melee attacks.

This was a very tricky concept to come up with as Tank and Rogue are almost diametrical opposites, ultimately this class is Bat Man, a protector who moves quickly and moderatly stealthfully to be 'everywhere at once' and can intimidate oponents away from their intended victims to effectivly nulify an enemy push or initiation. Thus this class will find itself countering enemy Rogues and Tanks much of the time. And like Batman guns are his weakness.

Tank/Summoner Keeper
While others are content to command mere beasts the Keeper keeps his friends close and his enemies closer, so forcefull is his will that it can pull in both friends and foes alike. No other class has as much ability to reposition others, though only towards the Keeper never away, most of their abilities pull the players that is effected, allowing for both offensive abduction of enemies off their front lines, or the rescue of over extended allies.

This was again a very tricky concept, I felt 'Tank with a pet' was rather dull so I went with a kind of play on words "what do they keep" and leaned into the concept of pulls which have always been a core part of Tank kits. Admittedly this might be seen as not truely fufilling the summoner secondary, but it dose atleast provide a theme that many Tank players should be attracted too. Pulling back allies who "were totally gonna make that kill I sware man" might cause friction but I think Tanks have the perogative here.

Tank/Tank Guardian (Juggernaught)
An unstopable battering Ram able to push forward into an enemy formation and negate enemy crowd control both for themselves and allies. The Guardian expends courage to gain CC immunity and the ability to confer that immunity to allies that move with them, they break any barrier with ease and knockback oponents on contact but must rely on allies to exploit the breaches they create.

The altivative means of initiation that Tanks have traditionally had in place of a pull is some kind of charge into the enemy lines and this is where this class emphasis is placed. As with most other double-down classes I felt that it can't just be 'more of the same' as a tank that is nigh unkillable is gonna be both boring to play as and frustrating to play against. I recomend the name swap to Juggernaught to emphasise their unstopable nature (like the Marvel villian), also 'Guardian' is really bland name.

nanfoodle

Azherae wrote: »

Some data from a group member to continue from your last post, Lodrig.

The person generally plays 'Suppression Mage with Support options' when there is no Summoner, 'Support Summoner with some Suppression' when a game allows for that, and when neither is available, tends to 'offtank'.

For her, all three of these come from the same 'ideal', but she doesn't consider them all to be the same 'class Fantasy'. She will play Mage in A2 until Summoner becomes available if Mage feels similar enough to Throne and Liberty Staff play (I don't expect it will).

In TL the Suppression type Mage build focuses on Ice and Lightning, but less on AoE and Fire, because TL, like Ashes, forces you to choose. TL Augments/Skill Specializations also have a cost, so she's forced to choose very specifically.

In Ashes, if she were to play Mage primary, it would be with 'whichever secondary allowed for more suppression and survivability'. So Mage/Tank if that one has good defenses and methods of forcing the enemy to do certain things, or Mage/Ranger if it improved soft CC enough. But what she often wants to play is something like Mage/Fighter, because it's a roundabout form of suppression.

If you're doing good Mage damage, and your opponent tries to respond to this by gap-closing to you and going for an attack, 'switching to Fighter mode' is a great option in many games. They're probably already damaged. You might have had time to set up some magical hazard at your position naturally. Most of the time, people are counting on 'killing the Mage before the Mage kills them' by getting close, since Mages tend to have bigger, slower attacks and long cooldowns. A Mage that has strong close-range burst damage when you finally do close in on them, is not an easy target.

You can counter them by 'refusing to play their game', not getting close, therefore 'removing' their close range damage from the equation. This is what she wants. To be 'a Mage that gets to suppress the enemy without generally being in danger because it's too risky to go stop her', or to be 'a massive distraction requiring the attention of multiple people to kill'.

Summoner options take this to the next level, if the Summoner class is good, they get to suppress like and you can't stop them without multiple people.

In FFXI this means she plays Summoner with subjob Red Mage for extra debuffs, weird defensive options, etc.
In Predecessor she can play Gadget, Aurora, Dekker, and Argus, depending on the enemy team.

To relate to 'class fantasy' then and sum up all that.

Her goal is Suppression, Support, 'Sacrifice' when necessary.
She has multiple 'classes' she can use to achieve this, and each has their own class fantasy toward achieving that goal, and different weaknesses that she chooses to accept.
When a class/character has weaknesses that don't make sense to her goal, she dislikes that one even if they can theoretically be built to do it.

This is the way in which she generally cares and the way she defines 'class fantasy' to an extent. If a class is the most 'archetypal' at doing a thing, it means they have some flexibility, that members of that class are similar but not always quite the same, and 'changing small parts' doesn't stop them from being able to do it.

A Summoner/Tank should be able to choose different ways to 'Summon Tanky/Tank Assisting things'. The specifics of how each one 'tanks' should vary. It's fine if a Summoner/Mage has like, 'one' Tank summon that 'can only tank this specific way'. But a Brood Warden should have options to achieve whatever the goal of 'A Summoner that wants to Tank' is.

Ofc the same goes for me as a Shadow Disciple. If I don't have options for Rogue-like survivability and positioning and debuffs, then I'm not much different than a High Priest that 'happens to spec into survivability'. Obviously the 'Survivability focused High Priest' and I will take the same survivability skills, but I would probably have more of an option to go 'wait, maybe I don't need this one and can use it for a debuff instead'.

I suggest you watch this...

https://youtu.be/zb2G2BtpiVE?si=L6M0h4gD8cr_pj3P

Pendragxn

From my perspective, the ideal class would involve manipulating shadows or void-like energy, much like the Shadow Monarch from Solo Leveling. As I mentioned in the summoner wish list thread, this hybrid rogue/summoner class would let me kill enemies and turn them into shadow vessels or entities that I can control. I’d have the ability to manipulate these shadows or void energy, using them to augment my summons with unique abilities or status effects. This would create a dynamic play-style, combining stealth, agility, and the power to summon and control dark forces in combat.

Each class should feel unique and stand apart, which is a huge challenge given the scope of 64 classes, but essential for offering players a variety of playstyles and customization options. Flexibility between melee and ranged attacks is important to me, with gap-closer augments being a nice addition for more fluid combat.

I’m especially interested in different summoning styles—whether it’s summoning items, weapons, creatures, or entities—and I’d love for there to be skins for summons so that not every player has the same generic look for their summoning. Some examples of what I’d like to see include:

• Bladecaller: Summoning blades around me, much like Noctis from Final Fantasy, combining mobility and offense.
• Brood Warden: Summoning a massive golem, riding it, or using its abilities to control crowds and mitigate damage.

Overall, I just hope there’s enough imagination put into the class design so it doesn’t feel like a rehash of generic ideas. I’m looking for originality, depth, and the ability to customise my gameplay experience in a way that feels fresh and exciting.

It is what it is—if it happens, great. If not, then what can you do? Bummer.

Lodrig

Pendragxn wrote: »

From my perspective, the ideal class would involve manipulating shadows or void-like energy, much like the Shadow Monarch from Solo Leveling. As I mentioned in the summoner wish list thread, this hybrid rogue/summoner class would let me kill enemies and turn them into shadow vessels or entities that I can control. I’d have the ability to manipulate these shadows or void energy, using them to augment my summons with unique abilities or status effects. This would create a dynamic play-style, combining stealth, agility, and the power to summon and control dark forces in combat.

Each class should feel unique and stand apart, which is a huge challenge given the scope of 64 classes, but essential for offering players a variety of playstyles and customization options. Flexibility between melee and ranged attacks is important to me, with gap-closer augments being a nice addition for more fluid combat.

I’m especially interested in different summoning styles—whether it’s summoning items, weapons, creatures, or entities—and I’d love for there to be skins for summons so that not every player has the same generic look for their summoning. Some examples of what I’d like to see include:

• Bladecaller: Summoning blades around me, much like Noctis from Final Fantasy, combining mobility and offense.
• Brood Warden: Summoning a massive golem, riding it, or using its abilities to control crowds and mitigate damage.

Overall, I just hope there’s enough imagination put into the class design so it doesn’t feel like a rehash of generic ideas. I’m looking for originality, depth, and the ability to customise my gameplay experience in a way that feels fresh and exciting.

It is what it is—if it happens, great. If not, then what can you do? Bummer.

The main issue I see with that rogue/summoner concept is when do I get the shadows from the people I killed? If I already dropped an enemy party member as a rogue I've probably done that on initiation of the fight with a surprise attack, so I've already done my job and our side should already be heading for a win so the shadow thing is piling on for a victory that seems to already be coming.

On the other hand if your retaining the shadow permantly from one battle to the next then how do you mange it? Dose it become a Pokemon (complete with item that contains it) that you can selectivly summon again? How much of the stats/archetype of the original player (or mob) dose it retain, how limited if at all is it's repeat usage? You also speak of 'summons' plural but I'm very skeptical if secondary summoner archetypes will have the ability to have more then 1 active summoned minion at a time so that primary summoners retain some uniqueness.

As for BladeCaller, yep the name and previous commentary from Intrepid make it obvious this will be a class that summons magic floating weapons. The question is how will they be functionally different from other summons.

Brood Warden, I also think makes sense as the golem themed summoner and would be better named 'Golemancer'. Also I think the base summoner archetype will provide a barebones 'utility mount' summon ability. If that is usable in battle to ride around on is another question. So far AoC has shown no signs of allowing mounted combat. And if it did I have a strong suspicion that it would require a 'War mount' produced via animal husbandry and that summoners would not be able to replicate it so as not to undercut that market and make all summoners defacto cavalry.

Pendragxn

Pendragxn wrote: »

I envision a hybrid of a rogue and summoner, similar to the Shadow Monarch class from Solo Levelling , called the Shadow Lord. This class combines the physical prowess of a rogue with the ability to summon shadow entities to fight alongside them. These shadows are the souls or vessels of enemies the Shadow Lord has defeated, allowing them to build an army of shadow minions. The Shadow Lord can summon multiple entities, each customizable with gear, elemental attributes, or status effects. This blend of agile combat and powerful summoning creates a versatile character, able to both fight directly and command a personalised shadow army.

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Shadow Lord Class - Hybrid Rogue/Summoner:

The Shadow Lord is a master of stealth, agility, and summoning dark entities from the void of shadows. Combining the nimble and precise combat abilities of a rogue with the overwhelming power of commanding an army, the Shadow Lord harnesses the souls of defeated enemies, bending them to their will as shadow vessels.

Core Concept:

A Shadow Lord is a rogue capable of both melee combat and summoning a legion of shadows. These shadows are formed from the souls of fallen foes, allowing the Shadow Lord to build and customize a personal army. Each summoned shadow can be outfitted with gear, weapons, or enhanced with elemental attributes and status effects, making the army as dynamic as the Shadow Lord's own fighting style.

Combat Abilities:

Stealth & Speed: As a rogue, the Shadow Lord excels in evasion and critical strikes. Quick and elusive, they can ambush enemies, dealing massive burst damage, and then disappear into the shadows to avoid retaliation.

Shadow Manipulation: The Shadow Lord can manipulate the essence of shadows, granting them the ability to control the battlefield. Shadows act as both weapons and shields, creating a highly versatile playstyle.

Summoning Shadows: After defeating enemies, the Shadow Lord has the power to claim their souls, transforming them into shadow entities. These entities can be summoned into battle, acting as minions that follow the Shadow Lord’s commands. Each shadow retains the basic fighting style of the original creature but can be further customized or enhanced.

Summoning and Customisation
Shadow Vessels: Each shadow the Lord summons is bound to them after the death of its original form. The strength, type, and attributes of the shadow depend on the original creature, but they can be upgraded by equipping them with weapons, armor, or items found throughout the game.

Customisable Minions:
- The Shadow Lord can modify their shadow army by:
- Changing elemental attributes (e.g., infusing fire, ice, lightning, or poison into their attacks).
- Applying status effects such as paralysis, slow, or fear to enhance crowd control.
- Assigning roles such as tanks, DPS, or support, giving them specific commands to complement the Lord's combat.

Soul Absorption & Power Scaling: The more powerful the foe defeated, the stronger the shadow. Defeating elite enemies or bosses grants the Shadow Lord access to powerful shadow vessels, allowing them to summon these entities in future battles.

Signature Abilities:

Shadow Infusion: The Shadow Lord can merge with their shadows, amplifying their physical abilities, speed, and strength for a limited time. This infusion also grants additional evasive and defensive capabilities.

Shadow Army: At higher levels, the Shadow Lord can summon entire squads of shadows to overwhelm their enemies, each fulfilling a specific tactical role. They can call on a range of shadows simultaneously, or even more with advanced skills.

Dark Resurrection: The Shadow Lord can momentarily resurrect shadows in the heat of battle, pulling defeated minions back from the void for a final attack or defense.

Shadow Warp: Harnessing their connection to the shadows, the Lord can teleport short distances by stepping into one shadow and emerging from another. This makes them difficult to track or pin down in combat.

Playstyle:

The Shadow Lord is designed to be a flexible fighter, excelling in both one-on-one combat and larger skirmishes. They balance their own stealth and offensive capabilities with the use of summoned shadows to flank, distract, or overwhelm opponents. The ability to customize their shadows allows for varied strategies, adapting to different enemy types or challenges on the fly.

Role in Teams:

In a group, the Shadow Lord can fill multiple roles:

Damage Dealer: Utilizing high burst damage, sneak attacks, and a swarm of shadows to dismantle enemy formations.

Support & Control: Using their shadows to provide crowd control, status effects, and debuffs, while applying pressure from multiple fronts.

Summoner/Tactician: With a small army of shadows at their disposal, the Shadow Lord can command their minions to guard allies, control zones, or focus on specific high-priority targets.

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The Shadow Lord is a versatile and formidable class, perfect for those who want the agility and cunning of a rogue, combined with the overwhelming might of a summoner.

Again this is just my opinion but think it’s pretty cool, and I can only hope for the best for this class. If anyone hasn’t read the solo levelling books I highly recommend you buy them they’re pretty good 👍🏼

I’m flexible on whether the build is Rogue/Summoner or Summoner/Rogue—whichever works best.

To fully grasp what I’m envisioning with the shadow vessels, you’d probably need to dive into the Solo Leveling novels or check out the manga. What I’m aiming for is a summoner class that feels distinct and powerful, avoiding anything that comes off as generic or underwhelming.

It would be great to have a summoner that’s capable of both high DPS and utility, particularly in PvP. This could be achieved through mechanics like curse-style damage, life-stealing, or debuffs that allow you to overpower your opponent. I’m thinking of a dark, death-related, or void-like energy—a vibe akin to angels of death or shinigami.

I’d prefer a system with multiple summons, where each can be augmented or have its role altered—perhaps even incorporating elements or status effects. The key for me is class diversity and a hybrid combat style. Instead of relying solely on summons to do the fighting, I’d want the summoner to also engage in combat, attacking while using their summoning abilities simultaneously.

Either classes will be great with some diversity and unique abilities or terrible—there’s no in-between.

I wish we had battle mounts or war mounts, that would be so cool.

Dygz

Mounts with combat abilities are in the Ashes design.

nanfoodle

Dygz wrote: »

Mounts with combat abilities are in the Ashes design.

A mount that charges and causes a stun. I got a little thrilled when that was said in the stream.

Agripinensia

ariatras wrote: »

3. Setting Clear Expectations:

One of the key responsibilities in game design, especially with such a versatile system, is to clearly communicate these nuances to the player base. The challenge lies in ensuring that players understand that while their class might gain new abilities and role-shifting options through secondary archetypes, the core essence of their primary class will remain the dominant aspect. This clarity will help prevent potential frustration or disappointment when players realize that, for example, a Summoner/Tank is not a traditional tank in the way a Fighter/Tank might be if it can tank at all.

I think this is my main problem with the system as a whole right now.
I have NO IDEA AT ALL what it is going to look like.

I don't even understand if Tank/Cleric and Cleric/Tank will play the same or will be completly different as the table (same name for both) tells one thing and the things being said (subclasses just being flavors of primary class) say the opposite.

What I am worried about way more is the viability of the Support-Classes when you have to get from point A to B in order to meet up with your group for example though.
That requires SOME SP Viability which when overtuned makes them OP, when not tuned high enough its too big a hassle for anyone to main them. (especially with few fast travel options).

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