nanfoodle wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Virtek wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » You could break it down by time and emphasize areas where key fights take place using graphs and numbers to illustrate cooldown usage, kills, healing numbers etc by player. The problem with this is it's a significant amount of work both from a tracking perspective and in UI display. The time to create this and make it useable will take away from other aspects of the game. I don't think the juice here is worth the squeeze. As a tank main, healer secondary, and dps third: The juice is 100% worth the squeeze. It's like saying it wouldn't be worth Intrepid taking the dev and UI time to make freeholds and guild halls placeable on anything but flat land that is clear of vegetation. We'll just ignore anything with a hill or tree because it would take too much time to dev. Just eliminate half the land space as viable. If a feature is going to be in place, it should be fully functional, even if extra bells and whistles aren't there. In this case, it should reflect actual contributions from everyone to the fullest extent the data collection will allow and calculate. Maybe it doesn't update in real time. Maybe it doesn't create a singular weighted score for everyone, based on all the data collected. Maybe it doesn't remain anywhere forever and only shows for that one event. Hell, maybe it doesn't even group people into their respective parties and total the entire raid's contribution, or vice-versa and only shows raid contribution, but not party or individual. But at least it actually shows how non-DPS contributed meaningfully with more depth than simply "healing done" and "damage taken." I'm not sure what roles you tend to play, but I can say that DPS don't typically feel the sadness of KNOWING you contributed heavily to the win while also seeing your name in the bottom 10% because you didn't slay enough of the opposition. 90% of games out there, be they standard multiplayer or MMO, don't truly value contributions of tank, healer, and support classes in any gathered metrics. Or PVP gameplay, for that matter. I know 90% is the arbitrary number, but I can count on one hand the multiplayer/mmo games I've played (or even heard about) that actually made a tank feel like they can/did contribute to PVP combat. Tanks, healers, and supports usually seem to have a sole purpose of helping prop up the damage dealers and only gain the team W without getting their own time to shine as well. If there's a leaderboard that provides winnings from anything and I don't have any way to make myself appear on the top, no matter what I do...Well, I won't be participating unless it is something crucial that impacts my play directly (guild war, node siege, etc...). Even then, I'm going to complain about it the whole time. "Play our game! But no...YOU can't get extra goodies or feel good points. Only people that do enough damage and kill enough other players." Soaks the fun right out of it at the end. If it's something minor, I'll probably just pass. I'll probably get more fun just doing something else. Your analogy of free hold placement isn't the equivalent, there's so many different systems that touch placing objects in the world and ownership over those objects that that comparison is ridiculous. There's x number of ui engineers/designers working on the game. Do they sacrifice another pass at player UI customization or increased crafting UI functionality in favor of increased leaderboard customization/functionality? The argument that it makes support players feel good is relatively pointless as any guild worth it's salt will pour through videos to see the value of supports. Id much rather see a better UI overall then garbage time stats for gold star seeking players. It has nothing to do with feeling good. If classes get feed back when they play DPS. I'm sick of support and healers and tanks getting their feedback for what they are designed to do. Ashes wants to bring back support then do the job right. Steven said these roles will matter in every area of the game. Them show them they do.
KingDDD wrote: » Virtek wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » You could break it down by time and emphasize areas where key fights take place using graphs and numbers to illustrate cooldown usage, kills, healing numbers etc by player. The problem with this is it's a significant amount of work both from a tracking perspective and in UI display. The time to create this and make it useable will take away from other aspects of the game. I don't think the juice here is worth the squeeze. As a tank main, healer secondary, and dps third: The juice is 100% worth the squeeze. It's like saying it wouldn't be worth Intrepid taking the dev and UI time to make freeholds and guild halls placeable on anything but flat land that is clear of vegetation. We'll just ignore anything with a hill or tree because it would take too much time to dev. Just eliminate half the land space as viable. If a feature is going to be in place, it should be fully functional, even if extra bells and whistles aren't there. In this case, it should reflect actual contributions from everyone to the fullest extent the data collection will allow and calculate. Maybe it doesn't update in real time. Maybe it doesn't create a singular weighted score for everyone, based on all the data collected. Maybe it doesn't remain anywhere forever and only shows for that one event. Hell, maybe it doesn't even group people into their respective parties and total the entire raid's contribution, or vice-versa and only shows raid contribution, but not party or individual. But at least it actually shows how non-DPS contributed meaningfully with more depth than simply "healing done" and "damage taken." I'm not sure what roles you tend to play, but I can say that DPS don't typically feel the sadness of KNOWING you contributed heavily to the win while also seeing your name in the bottom 10% because you didn't slay enough of the opposition. 90% of games out there, be they standard multiplayer or MMO, don't truly value contributions of tank, healer, and support classes in any gathered metrics. Or PVP gameplay, for that matter. I know 90% is the arbitrary number, but I can count on one hand the multiplayer/mmo games I've played (or even heard about) that actually made a tank feel like they can/did contribute to PVP combat. Tanks, healers, and supports usually seem to have a sole purpose of helping prop up the damage dealers and only gain the team W without getting their own time to shine as well. If there's a leaderboard that provides winnings from anything and I don't have any way to make myself appear on the top, no matter what I do...Well, I won't be participating unless it is something crucial that impacts my play directly (guild war, node siege, etc...). Even then, I'm going to complain about it the whole time. "Play our game! But no...YOU can't get extra goodies or feel good points. Only people that do enough damage and kill enough other players." Soaks the fun right out of it at the end. If it's something minor, I'll probably just pass. I'll probably get more fun just doing something else. Your analogy of free hold placement isn't the equivalent, there's so many different systems that touch placing objects in the world and ownership over those objects that that comparison is ridiculous. There's x number of ui engineers/designers working on the game. Do they sacrifice another pass at player UI customization or increased crafting UI functionality in favor of increased leaderboard customization/functionality? The argument that it makes support players feel good is relatively pointless as any guild worth it's salt will pour through videos to see the value of supports. Id much rather see a better UI overall then garbage time stats for gold star seeking players.
Virtek wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » You could break it down by time and emphasize areas where key fights take place using graphs and numbers to illustrate cooldown usage, kills, healing numbers etc by player. The problem with this is it's a significant amount of work both from a tracking perspective and in UI display. The time to create this and make it useable will take away from other aspects of the game. I don't think the juice here is worth the squeeze. As a tank main, healer secondary, and dps third: The juice is 100% worth the squeeze. It's like saying it wouldn't be worth Intrepid taking the dev and UI time to make freeholds and guild halls placeable on anything but flat land that is clear of vegetation. We'll just ignore anything with a hill or tree because it would take too much time to dev. Just eliminate half the land space as viable. If a feature is going to be in place, it should be fully functional, even if extra bells and whistles aren't there. In this case, it should reflect actual contributions from everyone to the fullest extent the data collection will allow and calculate. Maybe it doesn't update in real time. Maybe it doesn't create a singular weighted score for everyone, based on all the data collected. Maybe it doesn't remain anywhere forever and only shows for that one event. Hell, maybe it doesn't even group people into their respective parties and total the entire raid's contribution, or vice-versa and only shows raid contribution, but not party or individual. But at least it actually shows how non-DPS contributed meaningfully with more depth than simply "healing done" and "damage taken." I'm not sure what roles you tend to play, but I can say that DPS don't typically feel the sadness of KNOWING you contributed heavily to the win while also seeing your name in the bottom 10% because you didn't slay enough of the opposition. 90% of games out there, be they standard multiplayer or MMO, don't truly value contributions of tank, healer, and support classes in any gathered metrics. Or PVP gameplay, for that matter. I know 90% is the arbitrary number, but I can count on one hand the multiplayer/mmo games I've played (or even heard about) that actually made a tank feel like they can/did contribute to PVP combat. Tanks, healers, and supports usually seem to have a sole purpose of helping prop up the damage dealers and only gain the team W without getting their own time to shine as well. If there's a leaderboard that provides winnings from anything and I don't have any way to make myself appear on the top, no matter what I do...Well, I won't be participating unless it is something crucial that impacts my play directly (guild war, node siege, etc...). Even then, I'm going to complain about it the whole time. "Play our game! But no...YOU can't get extra goodies or feel good points. Only people that do enough damage and kill enough other players." Soaks the fun right out of it at the end. If it's something minor, I'll probably just pass. I'll probably get more fun just doing something else.
KingDDD wrote: » You could break it down by time and emphasize areas where key fights take place using graphs and numbers to illustrate cooldown usage, kills, healing numbers etc by player. The problem with this is it's a significant amount of work both from a tracking perspective and in UI display. The time to create this and make it useable will take away from other aspects of the game. I don't think the juice here is worth the squeeze.
Virtek wrote: » For healers and supports: Bonus damage provided by buffs Bonus healing provided by buffs Bonus mana regen provided by buffs Hot uptime Buff uptime Skill combos Overhealing (the lower the number, the better) Friendlies saved (shielding or big heal that arrived within ~1-2 seconds of damage that would have killed a friendly target) Strategic CC (CC that affects an enemy within ~5 seconds of their death)
Virtek wrote: » nanfoodle wrote: » ... Other then healing done these classes get very little info on the score board. A support class should have information on the leader board for Buffs given, damage % given to them for damage modifiers given to team mates. In short I add 10% damage buff to my team, I should have a score that shows how much damage I added for my buffs. I am sure IS could work this out to just a few stats that show how we participated. ... Healers and Support class players, please speak out. What ideas do you have on the metrics you would like to see posted. 100% behind this. Tanks, healers, and supports really do NEED stat collection outside of damage done, healing done, kills, deaths, and assists. If there is going to be a leaderboard, it should reflect all contributions. For tanks: Incoming damage mitigated Damage redirected from friendlies Enemy damage reduced due to taunt Debuff time applied Skill combos Strategic CC (CC that affects an enemy within ~5 seconds of their death) Friendlies saved (shielding and damage redirection that would have killed a friendly target) Critical conflict interrupted by battlefield control abilities (think blocking an attacking force with a wall while you're capping a flag. TOUGH to capture, so this would just be one helluva bonus) Time on objective For healers and supports: Bonus damage provided by buffs Bonus healing provided by buffs Bonus mana regen provided by buffs Hot uptime Buff uptime Skill combos Overhealing (the lower the number, the better) Friendlies saved (shielding or big heal that arrived within ~1-2 seconds of damage that would have killed a friendly target) Strategic CC (CC that affects an enemy within ~5 seconds of their death) Probably more that could be thought of, but a few of those alone would make the experience far more fun and rewarding.
nanfoodle wrote: » ... Other then healing done these classes get very little info on the score board. A support class should have information on the leader board for Buffs given, damage % given to them for damage modifiers given to team mates. In short I add 10% damage buff to my team, I should have a score that shows how much damage I added for my buffs. I am sure IS could work this out to just a few stats that show how we participated. ... Healers and Support class players, please speak out. What ideas do you have on the metrics you would like to see posted.
nanfoodle wrote: » Before we get into the main topic. Ashes will have leader boards. Steven has even talked about leader boards being used to let the system know who helped take out a node in a node war, for looting rights at the end of the battle. We see these at the end of Arena fights but we will be able to see peoples kill counts, assist, personal deaths etc. Here is where Support and Healing classes are often over looked. Other then healing done these classes get very little info on the score board. A support class should have information on the leader board for Buffs given, damage % given to them for damage modifiers given to team mates. In short I add 10% damage buff to my team, I should have a score that shows how much damage I added for my buffs. I am sure IS could work this out to just a few stats that show how we participated. DPS classes and damage done and kills marks them for what they are. Healers and Support needs their stats shown so they can gage how they did. Get recognition so they can get guild hunted. Invites to other events. Most MMOs do not do this and I ask that IS looks at ways to add stats on leader boards for us as well for the things that make us unique in the battle. This also challenges us to see how we can improve in that same thing. Healers and Support class players, please speak out. What ideas do you have on the metrics you would like to see posted.
Demostrathe wrote: » nanfoodle wrote: » Before we get into the main topic. Ashes will have leader boards. Steven has even talked about leader boards being used to let the system know who helped take out a node in a node war, for looting rights at the end of the battle. We see these at the end of Arena fights but we will be able to see peoples kill counts, assist, personal deaths etc. Here is where Support and Healing classes are often over looked. Other then healing done these classes get very little info on the score board. A support class should have information on the leader board for Buffs given, damage % given to them for damage modifiers given to team mates. In short I add 10% damage buff to my team, I should have a score that shows how much damage I added for my buffs. I am sure IS could work this out to just a few stats that show how we participated. DPS classes and damage done and kills marks them for what they are. Healers and Support needs their stats shown so they can gage how they did. Get recognition so they can get guild hunted. Invites to other events. Most MMOs do not do this and I ask that IS looks at ways to add stats on leader boards for us as well for the things that make us unique in the battle. This also challenges us to see how we can improve in that same thing. Healers and Support class players, please speak out. What ideas do you have on the metrics you would like to see posted. agreed, let us cleric chads rise up for once
