Syblitrh wrote: » From what i seen all ranged type mobs have homing projectiles, correct me if i am wrong. That's why i made the comparison with the Ball lightning, which is a spell projectile, but without homing.
Apok wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Apok wrote: » they could just make side stepping and dodging take up stamina also the person would have to be quick enough. And you now have - functionally, at least - a dodge ability. The concept of neeing to take off tab target in order to hit a moving target is a non-starter. Edit to add; I'm fairly sure it was very early 2019 when I first mentioned that defense is the single biggest issue in trying to combine tab and action combat. You can't have a system where someone using a tab target ability is able to have that shot not hit due to an action combat defense, but you also can't have a situation where an action combat attack hits the target, but due to the target having a high dodge or block stat, isn't registered as a hit. The two don't work together, and I don't have an solution for it. 100% agree with you there. I don't see how a game could do block/dodge stats in combination with active blocking and dodging. What do you think about an overhaul of how these stats are used. Maybe a higher dodge rating equals less stamina used while dodging and a larger iframe window where your block stat will reduce the amount of stamina damage done while active blocking?
Noaani wrote: » Apok wrote: » they could just make side stepping and dodging take up stamina also the person would have to be quick enough. And you now have - functionally, at least - a dodge ability. The concept of neeing to take off tab target in order to hit a moving target is a non-starter. Edit to add; I'm fairly sure it was very early 2019 when I first mentioned that defense is the single biggest issue in trying to combine tab and action combat. You can't have a system where someone using a tab target ability is able to have that shot not hit due to an action combat defense, but you also can't have a situation where an action combat attack hits the target, but due to the target having a high dodge or block stat, isn't registered as a hit. The two don't work together, and I don't have an solution for it.
Apok wrote: » they could just make side stepping and dodging take up stamina also the person would have to be quick enough.
Syblitrh wrote: » As someone mentioned " both players and mobs are in-game entities with the same rules", which is not exactly the same, as some of your character skills are not all homing projectiles. Also, just saying " This is pretty standard", or " go play wow or another tab game ", is not exactly the point i want to make here. Anyway, maybe i am just too sensitive when it comes to mechanics and things i want to see in 2024+, as i learned from the past.
Syblitrh wrote: » Like what happens if a mob shoots an arrow towards you, and if you move to the left or right there is a chance that the homing will loose accuracy, and not hit you. Would this break the game if you potentially consider this approach?, is that bad?. Will it break the turnbase style? "you hit, i hit"?
Syblitrh wrote: » Also take in consideration that ashes being a owpvp game, you might end up in a area with ranged elites, and someone will make sure you aggro more than you can take, and then u will think again about the auto lock on homing projectiles from all the mobs following you.
Caeryl wrote: » Active defense +stat(armor/magic resist) defense through gear and passives is plainly a much better system than accepting characters as stat-sticks for combat.
Noaani wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Active defense +stat(armor/magic resist) defense through gear and passives is plainly a much better system than accepting characters as stat-sticks for combat. I mean, "stat sticks" has worked for decades. If Intrepid went for what you are saying, they can't really claim that people can opt for primarily action or primarily tab combat - people only have that option with offense. Also, keep in mind, Steven has always said that if hybrid doesn't work, tab is the default.
Caeryl wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Active defense +stat(armor/magic resist) defense through gear and passives is plainly a much better system than accepting characters as stat-sticks for combat. I mean, "stat sticks" has worked for decades. If Intrepid went for what you are saying, they can't really claim that people can opt for primarily action or primarily tab combat - people only have that option with offense. Also, keep in mind, Steven has always said that if hybrid doesn't work, tab is the default. They 'worked' when that was the only option, but it's an outdated system that isn't particularly engaging and it severely lacks in skill expression. And you can easily create systems that have both active dodging and stat based defense. The presence of actively dodging some damage doesn't detract from methods of mitigating damage that does hit, which is all that armor should be for anyway. The fact that 'evasion' could be a stat on armor that triggers even if you literally never move is absurd.
Apok wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Active defense +stat(armor/magic resist) defense through gear and passives is plainly a much better system than accepting characters as stat-sticks for combat. I mean, "stat sticks" has worked for decades. If Intrepid went for what you are saying, they can't really claim that people can opt for primarily action or primarily tab combat - people only have that option with offense. Also, keep in mind, Steven has always said that if hybrid doesn't work, tab is the default. They 'worked' when that was the only option, but it's an outdated system that isn't particularly engaging and it severely lacks in skill expression. And you can easily create systems that have both active dodging and stat based defense. The presence of actively dodging some damage doesn't detract from methods of mitigating damage that does hit, which is all that armor should be for anyway. The fact that 'evasion' could be a stat on armor that triggers even if you literally never move is absurd. let's not forget it's all RNG as well
Caeryl wrote: » They 'worked' when that was the only option, but it's an outdated system
The fact that 'evasion' could be a stat on armor that triggers even if you literally never move is absurd.
Noaani wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » They 'worked' when that was the only option, but it's an outdated system But it still works. Saying your game is a hybrid of tab and action, but limiting defense to action only - that doesn't work. I feel the need to remind you again here that if hybrid doesn't work, action is not the default - tab is, because it works.
You can claim it's outdated all you like, but if there isn't a better system... Action combat is not a better system for an MMORPG, because it reduces the value of gear based upgrades, which are kind of the focus most people have in MMORPG's - essentially action combat is anti-MMO.
Caeryl wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Active defense +stat(armor/magic resist) defense through gear and passives is plainly a much better system than accepting characters as stat-sticks for combat. I mean, "stat sticks" has worked for decades. If Intrepid went for what you are saying, they can't really claim that people can opt for primarily action or primarily tab combat - people only have that option with offense. Also, keep in mind, Steven has always said that if hybrid doesn't work, tab is the default. They 'worked' when that was the only option, but it's an outdated system that isn't particularly engaging and it severely lacks in skill expression.
Caeryl wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » They 'worked' when that was the only option, but it's an outdated system But it still works. Saying your game is a hybrid of tab and action, but limiting defense to action only - that doesn't work. I feel the need to remind you again here that if hybrid doesn't work, action is not the default - tab is, because it works. In what world is mitigation through armor not a defense in your mind? Or abilities that boost armor or spell resist? Have you told yourself that there can't be both built in mitigations and active defensive options for whatever reason?
I hope you realize you're just proving the point here for why stat stick defenses are an outdated relic. There's no true skill expression when your gear is doing 90% of the fighting for you, and it puts far too much reliance on Gear Number Big than actually keeping combat awareness of the game space.
Laetitian wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Active defense +stat(armor/magic resist) defense through gear and passives is plainly a much better system than accepting characters as stat-sticks for combat. I mean, "stat sticks" has worked for decades. If Intrepid went for what you are saying, they can't really claim that people can opt for primarily action or primarily tab combat - people only have that option with offense. Also, keep in mind, Steven has always said that if hybrid doesn't work, tab is the default. They 'worked' when that was the only option, but it's an outdated system that isn't particularly engaging and it severely lacks in skill expression. No. You're stuck thinking in terms of other systems and evaluating a specific part of Ashes by other games' standards, without taking everything else that's different into account. Other games don't have the combination of skills and role dynamics that a tab target MMO has. That depth is where the skill expression comes from. I really dislike how loudly people talk who clearly have just never played a good tab target MMO. You need to make a little more of an honest effort to understand the full potential of the system before you dismiss it based on the downsides you've experienced. Imo, there's actually way less skill expression in most action MMOs than in tab target. They always devolve into the same rotation optimisation brainrot, where the only thing resembling player interaction consists of activating your parry and CC-break when appropriate, and everything else comes down to optimising the same rotation and procs that you use the same way in every fight. Players in MMO action combat are way too focused on their own minigames than paying attention to what their opponents are doing and making active decisions on how to deal with the opponent's build, class, party composition, and decisions. Because they don't have enough tools in their skill bar to do anything differently about different builds in the first place.
Caeryl wrote: » Seems you could use your own advice here, because not a single aspect of difficulty found in tab systems can't be replicated in action combat.
If you want to talk about rotations, tab is far worse for mindless rotation spam.
Noaani wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » They 'worked' when that was the only option, but it's an outdated system But it still works. Saying your game is a hybrid of tab and action, but limiting defense to action only - that doesn't work. I feel the need to remind you again here that if hybrid doesn't work, action is not the default - tab is, because it works. In what world is mitigation through armor not a defense in your mind? Or abilities that boost armor or spell resist? Have you told yourself that there can't be both built in mitigations and active defensive options for whatever reason? It still is - but it then leads to the opposite issue. With what you are saying, I can be using an action ability, put all my skill in to hitting you at long range, and then nope, your mitigation stat makes it a miss. That isn't good. If your game is asking players to aim at each other, a hit should be a hit.
Caeryl wrote: » Laetitian wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Active defense +stat(armor/magic resist) defense through gear and passives is plainly a much better system than accepting characters as stat-sticks for combat. I mean, "stat sticks" has worked for decades. If Intrepid went for what you are saying, they can't really claim that people can opt for primarily action or primarily tab combat - people only have that option with offense. Also, keep in mind, Steven has always said that if hybrid doesn't work, tab is the default. They 'worked' when that was the only option, but it's an outdated system that isn't particularly engaging and it severely lacks in skill expression. No. You're stuck thinking in terms of other systems and evaluating a specific part of Ashes by other games' standards, without taking everything else that's different into account. Other games don't have the combination of skills and role dynamics that a tab target MMO has. That depth is where the skill expression comes from. I really dislike how loudly people talk who clearly have just never played a good tab target MMO. You need to make a little more of an honest effort to understand the full potential of the system before you dismiss it based on the downsides you've experienced. Imo, there's actually way less skill expression in most action MMOs than in tab target. They always devolve into the same rotation optimisation brainrot, where the only thing resembling player interaction consists of activating your parry and CC-break when appropriate, and everything else comes down to optimising the same rotation and procs that you use the same way in every fight. Players in MMO action combat are way too focused on their own minigames than paying attention to what their opponents are doing and making active decisions on how to deal with the opponent's build, class, party composition, and decisions. Because they don't have enough tools in their skill bar to do anything differently about different builds in the first place. Seems you could use your own advice here, because not a single aspect of difficulty found in tab systems can't be replicated in action combat. Are you really going to claim that's good design? Engaging at all? Immersive?
Caeryl wrote: » If you want to talk about rotations, tab is far worse for mindless rotation spam. You play your keyboard with no concern for aim or location (as long as you're not standing in stupid) because you don't need to be aiming, you don't even have to have your target on your screen and everything still auto locks on them.
Caeryl wrote: » And I have unfortunately played a chunk of tab MMOs, all of which ended up the same way: the fights in PvE are generally decided after one rotation of spells; you'll know if you can kill this monster or if it will kill you unless you get very lucky on crits or evasion rolls. There is no amount of skill that can change this, because those systems focus so much on gear score over anything else. More than that, they'll rip out your immersion one menial ability a time until you have three bars of shit you'll cast once a minute if even that, to the point you're barely looking at what's going on in the game space.
Caeryl wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » They 'worked' when that was the only option, but it's an outdated system But it still works. Saying your game is a hybrid of tab and action, but limiting defense to action only - that doesn't work. I feel the need to remind you again here that if hybrid doesn't work, action is not the default - tab is, because it works. In what world is mitigation through armor not a defense in your mind? Or abilities that boost armor or spell resist? Have you told yourself that there can't be both built in mitigations and active defensive options for whatever reason? It still is - but it then leads to the opposite issue. With what you are saying, I can be using an action ability, put all my skill in to hitting you at long range, and then nope, your mitigation stat makes it a miss. That isn't good. If your game is asking players to aim at each other, a hit should be a hit. You've royally misunderstood what incorporating both would actually look like. Evasion as a stat should not exist. RNG should never be the determining factor for entirely avoiding damage from an attack. Mitigation is exactly that, mitigating damage from hits based on your resistances from armor, spells, or abilities to various damage types.
I don't particularly care if abilities will generally hone onto a target, but Misses should only ever be determined by an action taken by the player that visibly moves them. Gear shouldn't even be a factor on if something hits or not, only how much damage it does. It should be extremely obvious when someone has dodged your skills, letting rng from gear do it doesn't give any information to players fighting each other. It's bad for clarity and bad for skill expression.
Noaani wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Seems you could use your own advice here, because not a single aspect of difficulty found in tab systems can't be replicated in action combat. I have had this discussion on these forums, it lasted well over a year. In theory this is true, in actual practice, it is not. With action combat, you are limited in how you can design encounters, assuming you want encounters that players can beat. These limits are essentially removed with tab target combat.
