Leveling Speed

Wiki says the following:

On release the developers anticipate max level should be attainable in approximately 45 days if playing 4-6 hours per day.

This is equal to ~225 hours to reach level 50. What is your opinion about it? Would you like it to be faster or slower?

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RocketFarmer

Caeryl wrote: »

RocketFarmer wrote: »

I’d prefer a slower leveling experience at the rate of 5 levels per in game year (1 or 2 months real time). Meaning 10 months to reach level 50 at minimum. Node progression needs to be at least 2-5 times as slow, or exponential as the node progresses higher. So a Metropolis ought to feel like a Titan in Eve Online.

That would quickly and immediately turn a lot of potential players away. Nearly 5 months just to unlock your secondary class? Absolutely not.

Nodes are meant to rise and fall with decent speed, because that's how content is enabled or disabled within the world. It shouldn't take 10months before we see a metro-based dungeon.

The ask was what we would want. Answer provided. I’d also like in game aging where your heroes have a limited lifespan. I know that’s not going to happen. Without those two things, I would view it more as an arcade game with respect to scale. I know I am on the extreme end of this.

I also stated the time could be practically arbitrary. All depends on the scale and rate of change they want to chase.

If the intent is to make a game to play for 20+ years, then that 5-10 month range isn’t really that much time. If some players don’t want that, then doesn’t sound like they’d stick around for 20+ years either. Thought Intrepid was trying to break away from the less than 2 month cycle of players engaged briefly and then moving on to the next game.

But I assume Stephen will go with a rate of progression similar to Eve Online, Lineage 2 or ArcheAge, some of the games that inspire AoC. Metros would likely be similar to the first Titan Steve in Eve Online, I think. Meaning a lot of time and effort to get there. Throw in node wars and the dependency on supporting nodes, and I think it could be a while before the first metro appears. Or maybe it’s all up to the players to see what happens. Not sure they stated the rate of progression for nodes the way they have for PCs.

Syrea203

Howdy Flanker

I completely agree. I want a very slow leveling system so it feels like I've actually accomplished something when I hit max level.

Caeryl

RocketFarmer wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

RocketFarmer wrote: »

I’d prefer a slower leveling experience at the rate of 5 levels per in game year (1 or 2 months real time). Meaning 10 months to reach level 50 at minimum. Node progression needs to be at least 2-5 times as slow, or exponential as the node progresses higher. So a Metropolis ought to feel like a Titan in Eve Online.

That would quickly and immediately turn a lot of potential players away. Nearly 5 months just to unlock your secondary class? Absolutely not.

Nodes are meant to rise and fall with decent speed, because that's how content is enabled or disabled within the world. It shouldn't take 10months before we see a metro-based dungeon.

The ask was what we would want. Answer provided. I’d also like in game aging where your heroes have a limited lifespan. I know that’s not going to happen. Without those two things, I would view it more as an arcade game with respect to scale. I know I am on the extreme end of this.

I also stated the time could be practically arbitrary. All depends on the scale and rate of change they want to chase.

If the intent is to make a game to play for 20+ years, then that 5-10 month range isn’t really that much time. If some players don’t want that, then doesn’t sound like they’d stick around for 20+ years either. Thought Intrepid was trying to break away from the less than 2 month cycle of players engaged briefly and then moving on to the next game.

But I assume Stephen will go with a rate of progression similar to Eve Online, Lineage 2 or ArcheAge, some of the games that inspire AoC. Metros would likely be similar to the first Titan Steve in Eve Online, I think. Meaning a lot of time and effort to get there. Throw in node wars and the dependency on supporting nodes, and I think it could be a while before the first metro appears. Or maybe it’s all up to the players to see what happens. Not sure they stated the rate of progression for nodes the way they have for PCs.

They have, which you can find on the wiki https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Node_advancement

It'll take 'many weeks' to level all the way to a metro, so a couple months, just a little over the expected time to level to 50, which is required to engage with quite a few systems.

MMOs can't project for 20+ years out, the majority don't last even a decade, so trying to make it take a year just to reach the point where you actually get to interact with the full systems of the game is out of the question if it's meant to be an enjoyable experience.

Flanker

Zehlan wrote: »

So in that regard my view is this isn't about people wanting to actually level slower

> 20 differerent people - "We want leveling to be slower"
> @Zehlan - "No, they don't want it to be slower"

Zehlan wrote: »

it is actually about certain people forcing other people to level slower because they don't like people to level faster than them!

On which planet or star in the entire universe does it make any sense? If player X spends more hours in game than player Y, it doesn't matter how long leveling takes, 50 hours or 900 hours - player X will reach the level cap faster

Edit: typo - "If" instead of "I"

Flanker

Syrea203 wrote: »

Howdy Flanker I completely agree. I want a very slow leveling system so it feels like I've actually accomplished something when I hit max level.

Hey hey!

Pendragxn

I’m fine with a slower leveling pace as long as it’s not too reliant on grouping. Otherwise, it will take an excessively long time to level up, especially for those who start later. It would also help if there are engaging activities to do in between leveling.

Flanker

Pendragxn wrote: »

I’m fine with a slower leveling pace as long as it’s not too reliant on grouping. Otherwise, it will take an excessively long time to level up, especially for those who start later. It would also help if there are engaging activities to do in between leveling.

Pretty sure solo leveling will be a viable option. Group leveling will be somewhat faster anyway (easier, less deaths, more locations avaiable, group XP bonus), but I suppose that if you want to do it solo - there will be more than enough opportunities

Dygz

Aszkalon wrote: »

Help Players to defend the Nodes against Attackers ?

There are Mercenary NPCs that can be assigned to players. We've discussed about that before and those will follow generically... a pet system even adopted majority of the pet system with the added bonus of objective based points of interest that you can assign them to. But we don't want to inundate the field with these Mercenaries; they'll be few and far between. They'll be assigned specifically. Like, let's say for example, as the Mayor of a Node, during a siege you'll be able to assign these two specific players that are Citizens within your Node and then they'll have those they'll spawn during the during the Node Siege; or vice versa and the Castle Siege guild leaders can assign Mercenaries that are available based on the progress of those subsidiary Nodes around the Castle Siege whether or not you have those available to your defense or your attack.
---Steven

That sounds way more limited than "troops" of NPC Mercenaries.
I don't think NPC Mercenaries will be what's keeping Metros from being destroyed.

Aszkalon wrote: »

Wasn't there like a Statement or several that Nodes need to conquer and subdue other Nodes to grow into LvL 6 Metropolisses ?

They just have to survive Sieges while still a Stage 5 City and progress faster than their neighboring Nodes.

Aszkalon wrote: »

I don't think it will be that easy. But not like we are going to test that anytime soon. That is at least still a good Year from here on.

Yep. I agree.

Aszkalon wrote: »

Oh geez. You might be right. Maybe a super-stable Metro would be horrible for many People who would love some change in the World of Verra and might never get it - as long as a certain few Locations are always with a Metropolis.

Which is the intended motivation to initiate Node Sieges.
We'll have to see how that actually playes out.

Aszkalon wrote: »

But when the Metropolis CAN. NOT. otherwise than fall someday that would also make for nice Content against the feared "Mega-Guilds" and their wannabe-superior, eternal Reign and Rule. Like +400 to +500 Super-Elitist Players defending the Node every Day all Year long and STILL lose it at some point. 🤣 🤣

🤣

Peeger

SLOWER!! I hate how so many games rush you to high levels for 'end game' content!

Zehlan

Flanker wrote: »

> 20 differerent people - "We want leveling to be slower"

Flanker wrote: »

player X spends more hours in game than player Y, it doesn't matter how long leveling takes, 50 hours or 900 hours - player X will reach the level cap faster[/b]

Interesting that you claim you "want to level slower" yet in your next quote claim that some people will take 50 hours and some people "maybe the ones who want to level slower" could take 900 hours! So you admit you can level slower on your own but that it is not what you are after you want to force other people to level slower. If it is not about forcing the majority to have to take longer to level and just certain few who want it longer for themselves then why not ask Intrepid to put in a toggle in settings that cuts you xp earned in half so you can slowly enjoy your game?

That fact of the matter is you will not stop people from powering their way to max level and the only thing your suggesting here is to punish everyone else so you can delay them by a week or two. You have the power to level as fast or slow as you want. It is what you make of it not intrepid play at your own speed.

Finally I am curious why @Flanker would open two threads about the exact same topic? Why is it that you couldn't win your arguments in one and had to have this one for a fall back?

Flanker

Zehlan wrote: »

Interesting that you claim you "want to level slower" yet in your next quote claim that some people will take 50 hours and some people "maybe the ones who want to level slower" could take 900 hours!

Interesting, how you didn't manage to realize that there was a typo and there should have been "If" instead of "I". It's pretty obvious but you decided to twist the point that I was making.

Zehlan wrote: »

So you admit you can level slower on your own but that it is not what you are after you want to force other people to level slower.

Buddy, your distorted interpretations of my words don't bother me, but it only shows your desperation. If you can't compehend a simple fact that someone who plays 6/h day will reach the level cap faster than someone who play 3h/day, NO MATTER HOW LONG IT TAKES, 50 or 5000 hours - you shouldn't have missed the Math classes in your Elementary school.

Zehlan wrote: »

just certain few who want it longer

I know counting is difficult, but you may try to see how many people wrote about it in this thread. If that's too difficult of a task, you may take a look at top 10 upvoted comments under this Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/1arkw7s/leveling_speed/

Oh wait, you obviously won't do it, because it would immediately prove that you are wrong.

Zehlan wrote: »

why not ask Intrepid to put in a toggle in settings that cuts you xp earned in half so you can slowly enjoy your game

I desperately hope you are smart enough to answer your own question. Also, I desperately hope that you will be smart enough to not ask ... this kind of questions at some point in future.

Zehlan wrote: »

That fact of the matter is you will not stop people from powering their way to max level and the only thing your suggesting here is to punish everyone else so you can delay them by a week or two. You have the power to level as fast or slow as you want. It is what you make of it not intrepid play at your own speed.

No comments on this nonsense. If mental gymnastics was one of the Olympic sports, the gold medal would be yours, hands down.

Zehlan wrote: »

Finally I am curious why @Flanker would open two threads about the exact same topic?

OMG CALL THE COPS!!! CALL FBI!!! CALL INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE!!!!

If you can't read and comprehend that this topic was a general poll that I made almost 8 months ago and another one is an actual suggestion - there is nothing I can help you with. I wasn't the one who bumped it anyway.

Zehlan wrote: »

Why is it that you couldn't win your arguments in one and had to have this one for a fall back?

Are you like... okay? We established that you have some issues with counting and reading, but apparently you have issues with dates as well? You can't check the date when this thread was created? You can't see that I wasn't the one who reanimated it?

Apparently, you are a casual player who thinks (for whatever reason that makes 0 sense - at least I haven't seen a single decent counterpoint so far) that slower leveling in a game like Ashes is somehow bad. You are clearly talking as someone who unconsciously thinks that "all fun begins at max level" or "if leveling is fast, then I will be able to compete with hardcore players" or something like that. Therefore, YOU want to make the game meet YOUR personal preferences, instead of thinking what is better for the game OVERALL - which is what I am doing or, at least, trying to do

Dygz

I dunno what you can possibly mean by "slower" and "faster".
Now, you seem to want the time it takes to reach max Adventurer Level to be measured in days, rather than hours. In that case, there would need to be a programmed restriction on how much Adventurer xp can be earned per day.

Leveling that programitically restricts reaching Level 50 to be significantly slower than 250 would be bad.
Again, slower leveling equals the time to reach the next level - and the time it takes to acquire the rewards/skills/stats associated with the next level.
Thankfully, Ashes does not do that.
Instead, Ashes offers other progression paths that players can choose to pursue before they reach Adventurer Level 50, thereby also extending the time it takes for them to reach Level 50. Or... players can choose to pursue those progression paths after they reach Adventuer Level 50.

Ashes offers options:
Players who wish to hit Adventurer Level 50 in 225 hours can do so.
Players who wish to take longer to hit Adventurer Level 50 can do so by pursuing the other progression paths before reaching max Adventurer Level. Players can Level to max Adventurer Level more slowly than 225 hours if they so desire.
Best of both worlds.

Flanker

Dygz wrote: »

I dunno what you can possibly mean by "slower" and "faster".

We already discussed what we needed to discuss in another topic and I don't think there is anything new we can say to each other

Dygz wrote: »

Now, you seem to want the time it takes to reach max Adventurer Level to be measured in days, rather than hours. In that case, there would need to be a programmed restriction on how much Adventurer xp can be earned per day.

Appreciate your detailed explanation about something that I never actually suggested.

nanfoodle

I do like the 250ish hours or so to get max level. I do think there needs to be a catch up mechanic added later. Maybe 6-12 months after launch. Be that leveling time is sped up. Mentor system that lets high level players level cap down to their low level friends. Or the low level is cap up to the mentors level to get exp in high level dungeon with friends. I cant picture being at cap level and telling your friends to come play Ashes and say, ok see ya in a year. I really dont care how this is done but it needs to happen at some point.

Flanker

nanfoodle wrote: »

I do like the 250ish hours or so to get max level. I do think there needs to be a catch up mechanic added later. Maybe 6-12 months after launch. Be that leveling time is sped up. Mentor system that lets high level players level cap down to their low level friends. Or the low level is cap up to the mentors level to get exp in high level dungeon with friends. I cant picture being at cap level and telling your friends to come play Ashes and say, ok see ya in a year. I really dont care how this is done but it needs to happen at some point.

The "gap" between casual and hardcore players can be adjusted by balancing Rested XP - simple as that

nanfoodle

Flanker wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

I do like the 250ish hours or so to get max level. I do think there needs to be a catch up mechanic added later. Maybe 6-12 months after launch. Be that leveling time is sped up. Mentor system that lets high level players level cap down to their low level friends. Or the low level is cap up to the mentors level to get exp in high level dungeon with friends. I cant picture being at cap level and telling your friends to come play Ashes and say, ok see ya in a year. I really dont care how this is done but it needs to happen at some point.

The "gap" between casual and hardcore players can be adjusted by balancing Rested XP - simple as that

That has nothing to do with what I am talking about.

EDIT: What I am talking about a year after launch. There should be ways to speed up peoples leveling that join Ashes when the majority of the players are playing at cap. IS could speed up the leveling process or do things like Mentorship with players. So low levels players can play with their friends. Or what ever mechanic IS wants to use but this would be a later thing.

Zehlan

Flanker wrote: »

I know counting is difficult, but you may try to see how many people wrote about it in this thread. If that's too difficult of a task, you may take a look at top 10 upvoted comments under this Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/1arkw7s/leveling_speed/

See this why i don't trust anything you say Flanker because you do nothing but deceive and manipulate. Take the poll for example 10 people up voted and wrote a few comments yet if you look at the actual poll it shows a different picture.
Leveling Speed
Discussion

Wiki states the following:

On release the developers anticipate max level should be attainable in approximately 45 days if playing 4-6 hours per day.

This is equivalent to approximately 225 hours to reach level 50. What is your opinion on this? Would you prefer it to be faster, slower, or keep it as it is? Why?
Closed • 557 total votes
139
Slower
306 <---- Majority
Keep it as it is
112
Faster

I am sure the faster crowd will join the 306 who voted keep it as is before they would ever join the slower crowd. So that means 418 vs 139 it is basic math and you can try and do your deceptive spin of maybe there was a full moon , a solar eclipse was happening, it was high tide and people weren't thinking correctly or to sum your own words

Flanker wrote: »

Oh, my friend, obviously it has never ever happened in history - when majority of people voted for something that ended up being a wrong/bad/counterproductive/terrible. I'm not using this as an actual argument, I mention this so that you just keep it in mind.

Now, statistics never lie, but only in case if you properly interpret it.

So the majority is wrong and you will interpret what everyone should be thinking!

Dygz wrote: »

I dunno what you can possibly mean by "slower" and "faster".
Now, you seem to want the time it takes to reach max Adventurer Level to be measured in days, rather than hours. In that case, there would need to be a programmed restriction on how much Adventurer xp can be earned per day.

Leveling that programitically restricts reaching Level 50 to be significantly slower than 250 would be bad.
Again, slower leveling equals the time to reach the next level - and the time it takes to acquire the rewards/skills/stats associated with the next level.
Thankfully, Ashes does not do that.
Instead, Ashes offers other progression paths that players can choose to pursue before they reach Adventurer Level 50, thereby also extending the time it takes for them to reach Level 50. Or... players can choose to pursue those progression paths after they reach Adventuer Level 50.

Ashes offers options:
Players who wish to hit Adventurer Level 50 in 225 hours can do so.
Players who wish to take longer to hit Adventurer Level 50 can do so by pursuing the other progression paths before reaching max Adventurer Level. Players can Level to max Adventurer Level more slowly than 225 hours if they so desire.
Best of both worlds.

I think @Dygz summed it up better then anything I have seen so far well done!

Flanker

Zehlan wrote: »

See this why i don't trust anything you say Flanker because you do nothing but deceive and manipulate.

It's funny how you take into account only the information that proves your point, but completely ignore everything that goes against it. Replies in this thread, comments under reddit posts and all those people who upvoted them. Confirmation bias at its finest.

Also, it's funny how you only quoted a part of my message about that poll while completely missing other important points. Lying by omission is a primitive tactic and you won't be able to use that trick with me.

Flanker wrote: »

Now, statistics never lie, but only in case if you properly interpret it. What I mean by that is... let's say, metaphorically, that 20% of car accidents happen because of drunk driving. I means that the remaining 80% of accidents happen when the driver is sober. Does it mean that sober driving is riskier than drunk driving? Obviously not.

What you need to realize, while analyzing the results of that poll:

1. The average Reddit user would have less knowledge about the game compared to the average forum user. Also, as I said previously, I highly doubt that the average voter thought about this topic seriously for at least a minute prior to clicking one of the options.

2. If you are really looking for truth, then it's crucial to take so-called "status quo bias" when it comes to a representative sampling of poll participants. For reference:

A status quo bias or default bias is a cognitive bias which results from a preference for the maintenance of one's existing state of affairs. The current baseline (or status quo) is taken as a reference point, and any change from that baseline is perceived as a loss or gain. Corresponding to different alternatives, this current baseline or default option is perceived and evaluated by individuals as a positive.

Status quo bias is a cognitive bias based in emotion. Change naturally invites risk, and people may be uncomfortable putting themselves in situations where the outcome is uncertain. This tendency to keep things the way they are can have a considerable effect on how people behave in virtually any aspect of life.

And as I said, if you ignore the middle ground, more people actually voted for "slower" leveling compared to "faster" option

3. You look at the poll, yet you completely ignore the comments. Here are the top comments under that poll. If you want to be objective, shouldn't you take them into account?

Zehlan wrote: »

I think @Dygz summed it up better then anything I have seen so far well done!

This part perfectly summarizes what's going on in your head. You're literally ready to s... agree with anyone who disagrees with me. The funniest part is that @Dygz 's comments is based on false assumption that (I think) he made accidentally.

But you didn't even cared to understand what he wrote and that I never implied anything that he disagreed with. A perfect example of hive mind and tribalism.

If someone actually provides a decent counterpoint, that's definitely not gonna be you, kid

Dygz

Flanker wrote: »

Appreciate your detailed explanation about something that I never actually suggested.

You did suggest what I said you suggested here:
If you can't compehend a simple fact that someone who plays 6/h day will reach the level cap faster than someone who play 3h/day, NO MATTER HOW LONG IT TAKES, 50 or 5000 hours - you shouldn't have missed the Math classes in your Elementary school.
That obviously has to be about DAYS rather than HOURS because if it's 225 hours to max Adventurer Level it doesn't matter how many DAYS it takes. Casual Time v Hardcore Time is irrelevant.
It will take the Casual Time player 225 hours. It will take the Hardcore Time player 225 hours.

Which is why I replied:
I dunno what you can possibly mean by "slower" and "faster".
Now, you seem to want the time it takes to reach max Adventurer Level to be measured in days, rather than hours. In that case, there would need to be a programmed restriction on how much Adventurer xp can be earned per day.

You also later suggest:
The "gap" between casual and hardcore players can be adjusted by balancing Rested XP - simple as that.

Flanker

Dygz wrote: »

Flanker wrote: »

Appreciate your detailed explanation about something that I never actually suggested.

You did suggest what I said you suggested here:
If you can't compehend a simple fact that someone who plays 6/h day will reach the level cap faster than someone who play 3h/day, NO MATTER HOW LONG IT TAKES, 50 or 5000 hours - you shouldn't have missed the Math classes in your Elementary school.
That obviously has to be about DAYS rather than HOURS because if it's 225 hours to max Adventurer Level it doesn't matter how many DAYS it takes. Casual Time v Hardcore Time is irrelevant.
It will take the Casual Time player 225 hours. It will take the Hardcore Time player 225 hours.

Buddy, what are you even talking about?

I'm responsbile for what I say. I'm not responsible for 100 possible interpretations of my words. You completely missed the point that I made and instead, you talk about some "days" that I never even mentioned.

Like, what?

And of course, your fangirl will like anything you say as long as it is you disagreeing with me.

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