ASHES SHOULD REMOVE THE VISUAL "1-50 CLASSIC MECHANIC FOR LEVELING

The problem with the leveling system is that it divides players based on the time it takes to increase a number attached to their name. Some players have jobs, some are casual, and others are hardcore, each with different expectations based on what they have achieved and the time they’ve invested to reach a specific level.

In a dynamic game like Ashes of Creation, having a traditional level number next to your name undermines the game’s replay-ability and enjoyment. My suggestion is to remove the "1-50" leveling system entirely. This would eliminate the pressure or frustration for all types of players, allowing them to focus on the game's core dynamic features instead of chasing numbers. I believe this would be a win for Intrepid Studios, as it could attract a wider range of players.

Since AoC already bases many of its systems on time progression or percentage completion, showing a level number isn’t necessary. This would give the developers flexibility to adjust the time or effort required to unlock features, without being tied to a leveling system. Players could progress naturally, following whatever path they prefer, without feeling discouraged by seeing other players at higher levels.

Instead of increasing a number with experience from killing monsters, it could simply fill a bar or percentage towards unlocking something. Similarly, gear should not be tied to a level; the difficulty of obtaining it already provides an "invisible level" based on the challenge faced.

Another issue with traditional levels is the mentality of “What will I do once I reach level 50?” Removing the level system altogether would shift the focus away from reaching a particular number and encourage players to enjoy the journey. You could still implement ranks based on achievements or milestones, but these ranks wouldn’t have visible levels attached to them, so the time required to reach them remains unknown, allowing everyone to progress at their own pace.

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Comments

Dygz

RocketFarmer wrote: »

Could go old school and have levels capped at 10, although progression at each level would need to be pretty steep. Unless you structured character level based off of leveling in individual skills/abilities until you met the prerequisites for the next level. That’s more in line with the career path structure of Warhammer Fantasy RPG, for example

Level 10 max was for a turn-based combat game that most people played 4 hours per week - if lucky.
And then, by the time you graduate from high school, it's sometimes a miracle to be able to play 4hours per month.
As opposed to Ashes, where Steven theorizes gamers who play 4 hours per day can hit Level 50 in 45 days.

daveywavey

Anybody who stops playing a game because they're a lower level than players that have been in-game for 6 months already, probably doesn't have the staying power required for a game like this.

There's no shame in having a life outside of gaming, just as there's no shame in having gaming as your life. Expecting both to have/show the same in-game progression, though, seems an unusual take.

Effah

they are ways to include leveling with out separating the player base this much. plus some zones are just gonna end up feeling empty over time.

Githal

Dygz wrote: »

Githal wrote: »

As something which i could suggest is to cap the levels at the start of the game. For example at game launch the level cap is lvl 20. So no matter if someone plays 24 hours per day, or someone plays 4 they will reach same level and one wont be with 40 levels ahead.
And the level cap can increase with the development of nodes. So the moment THE FIRST NODE IN THE SERVER advances to lvl 3, the Global lvl cap of all players on the server becomes 30, on node lvl 4 you get lvl 40, and at metropolis you unlock lvl 50.

By design, this is basically kinda already the case.

I am not that sure about this.
And while we know that with development of nodes, new content and stronger monsters will appear, This doesnt exclude the option that outside the Starting Zones, there may be higher level areas by default. Or some dungeons and ect.

Tho there is some chance that there wont be any high level content until nodes develop (but i doubt this)

Dygz

By design, the content available in Dungeons/Raids also changes - including Levels - based on the rise and fall of Nodes.

Sure, their could be areas beyond Node influence, like the Open Seas, that have static Levels.
But, for the vast majority of game space, we don't move from static region to static region as we out-Level low Level spaces.

Flanker

Dygz wrote: »

It's only your confirmation bias that makes you think your suggestion is significantly different.
Syblitrh also believes their suggestion would be a net positive for the game.

> Read the definition of a confirmation bias
> Check what I wrote
> Realize it has nothing to do with it
> Make up another excuse
> Repeat

TL;Couldn't compehend: Both 2% and 0,01% are small chances, yet the first one is 200x higher.

Depraved

P0GG0 wrote: »

they are ways to include leveling with out separating the player base this much. plus some zones are just gonna end up feeling empty over time.

separating the players isn't a bad thing. in fact, it is made on purpose. you don't want 10000 players in the same spot ;3
there are other mechanics in mmorpg that also do this, but no one complains about those.

Podgnil

Topic author, please tell me honestly, are you from Sweet baby? )
Remove levels from RPGs so that everyone can feel comfortable. What else can you do for overall comfort? Take away everyone’s weapons so that they don’t beat each other, and cancel the red mobs so that they don’t get aggressive and the player himself can choose who to attack))) It’s hard to imagine anything more absurd.

Birthday

Making the number go big is an extremely cheap psychological trick that I am tired of seeing MMORPGs abuse.

It funnels you into all sorts of senseless chasing - grind level, grind gear to get higher dps, grind, grind, grind.

I can't imagine an innovative system that makes this obsolete however AoC can instead just focus more on the social aspect of the genre. Make low, mid and endgame quests and leveling require you to find find friends in order to complete them but not just because you need to meet the stat requirement in order to do them. That should be only one part. They should also require you to think, problem-solve, brainstorm together, coordinate, etc.
Make social events for players.

Also focus on the RPG aspect of the genre - make lore something which you can discover ingame, not necessarily tied to the main-quests, but parts of it can be hidden, make the storyline memorable, make exploring fun and engaging, not just a theme-park scene watching. Actually make players go and search for hidden things in walls, make them click on plants to learn more about them and once learned give you the ability to combine certain plants in order to trigger ingame events etc. Make it puzzling. Quizzical.

Thats the main problem of MMORPGs. They never went next-gen. WoW vanilla when it released back in early 2000, was overwhelming for everyone in exactly this way. It had so many things that were fresh, never before seen and done. Even gathering quests, mindless mob farming quests, etc. felt like an adventure because it was all novel. Ever since then though MMORPGs just never innovated. WoW expansions only gave us re-skins of all the quests gathering/farm quests and raids. Basically they theme-parked it till the end(up to this day) and feared to innovate because they all wanted to keep to the golden cash-cow formula from early 2000 WoW. Other MMORPGs just gave us re-skins of WoW, keeping to teh formula in an inferior way.

That's the problem. MMORPGs never went next-gen in their MMO and RPG aspects. Up to this day they rely on just two things:
1.Re-skin old content
2.Make number go big(level, damage, etc)

Nemeses

Syblitrh wrote: »

The problem with the leveling system is that it divides players based on the time it takes to increase a number attached to their name. Some players have jobs, some are casual, and others are hardcore, each with different expectations based on what they have achieved and the time they’ve invested to reach a specific level.

snip

completely ridiculous comment, if they did not use that yard stick they would use another.

Makes you wonder how people think, or if they actually do!

Caeryl

Birthday wrote: »

Making the number go big is an extremely cheap psychological trick that I am tired of seeing MMORPGs abuse.

Like providing food at events is a psychological trick because people have to eat? Or like paying people more money is a psychological trick to get them to work more?

'You shouldn't eat when you're hungry, because hunger is just a feeling' kind of logic.

More damage and higher armor values allow you tackle more difficult content. You have to have that information available and communicated so players understand where their power level is at compared to other entities in the game world.

Leveling is a gate through which skills and passives and systems can be introduced gradually as the player understands their class better. That it uses a number system is a convenience for the player to communicate with each other.

If it's not communicated with a number, it'll be done with colors, or with shapes, or with a little musical number when you hover your cursor over something. It translates to the same exact same information, just in a harder to understand format for no reason.

spawn33

I dont agree. Some things should be classic.

Ulderek

I'm not sure how i feel about this, WoW!

Renathras

Honestly, I'm just not sure why every MMO starts with a level cap of 50 or 60. Like...EVERY one does this.

Why not 20? 25? 30? Baldur's Gate had a level cap of around 8 (granted, differing based on class, but let's say about 8), and with the expansion, 10. BG2's was 20ish, 40 with the expansion.

But the point is, you need room to grow, and if you're planning to every have an expansion (everyone does for games running more than 2-3 years), those tend to come with level cap increases. So why start with 50 right out of the gate?

Why not start with 30 or so,, and add 5 with expansions?

Starting with 50 and adding 10 just means in ~6-10 years of expansions, you have to do a stat and level squish - again, pretty much every long running MMO has this problem - making levels even more pointless!

Depraved

Birthday wrote: »

Making the number go big is an extremely cheap psychological trick that I am tired of seeing MMORPGs abuse.

It funnels you into all sorts of senseless chasing - grind level, grind gear to get higher dps, grind, grind, grind.

I can't imagine an innovative system that makes this obsolete however AoC can instead just focus more on the social aspect of the genre. Make low, mid and endgame quests and leveling require you to find find friends in order to complete them but not just because you need to meet the stat requirement in order to do them. That should be only one part. They should also require you to think, problem-solve, brainstorm together, coordinate, etc.
Make social events for players.

Also focus on the RPG aspect of the genre - make lore something which you can discover ingame, not necessarily tied to the main-quests, but parts of it can be hidden, make the storyline memorable, make exploring fun and engaging, not just a theme-park scene watching. Actually make players go and search for hidden things in walls, make them click on plants to learn more about them and once learned give you the ability to combine certain plants in order to trigger ingame events etc. Make it puzzling. Quizzical.

Thats the main problem of MMORPGs. They never went next-gen. WoW vanilla when it released back in early 2000, was overwhelming for everyone in exactly this way. It had so many things that were fresh, never before seen and done. Even gathering quests, mindless mob farming quests, etc. felt like an adventure because it was all novel. Ever since then though MMORPGs just never innovated. WoW expansions only gave us re-skins of all the quests gathering/farm quests and raids. Basically they theme-parked it till the end(up to this day) and feared to innovate because they all wanted to keep to the golden cash-cow formula from early 2000 WoW. Other MMORPGs just gave us re-skins of WoW, keeping to teh formula in an inferior way.

That's the problem. MMORPGs never went next-gen in their MMO and RPG aspects. Up to this day they rely on just two things:
1.Re-skin old content
2.Make number go big(level, damage, etc)

if you don't like cheap psychological tricks, then you should be angry at Mcdonalds and all fast food places using red on their logo, or pretty much anyone selling anything.

meeting stats requirements is important, specially on an RPG where you develop your character and become stronger and you can literally choose how you develop your character.

those things you mentioned arent RPG elements, they are adventure elements. a story based RPG novel is as much RPG as bg3 or the witcher and it doesn't have any hidden doors or treasures or puzzles.

quests in wow weren't groundbreaking.

mmorpg do the RPG aspects well, you are confusing things with other genres. rpg's borrow from other genres too.

people complain about theme parks, but they are popular because people like them and are willing to pay for them...

daveywavey

Renathras wrote: »

Honestly, I'm just not sure why every MMO starts with a level cap of 50 or 60. Like...EVERY one does this.

Why not 20? 25? 30? Baldur's Gate had a level cap of around 8 (granted, differing based on class, but let's say about 8), and with the expansion, 10. BG2's was 20ish, 40 with the expansion.

But the point is, you need room to grow, and if you're planning to every have an expansion (everyone does for games running more than 2-3 years), those tend to come with level cap increases. So why start with 50 right out of the gate?

Why not start with 30 or so,, and add 5 with expansions?

Starting with 50 and adding 10 just means in ~6-10 years of expansions, you have to do a stat and level squish - again, pretty much every long running MMO has this problem - making levels even more pointless!

The number itself is immaterial. It's the amount of levelling needed that's the thing. If they chose a smaller level cap, they'd just increase the amount of levelling needed to get each level up, and you'd end up doing just the same to get to the smaller level cap.

50 itself is a nice round number. It gives a feeling of long-term goal, and a sense of achievement when you get there. It's also low enough that future level cap increases don't feel ridiculous, and that new players don't feel too intimidated.

There's a lot of psychology goes into making games. The fact that most companies do it this way suggests that it's been proven to be the most rewarding.

AidanKD

I think my main concern with the post is what the level provides - and how it's going to be displaced if we were to follow this method.

Lets take levels - a level can provide raw stats, maybe skill points - act as a wall to certain progression like content, gear etc.

If we take away the levels as the means, then you still need ways to develop your character - a la stats, skill progression etc.

If you remove the levels how do you fill the gap? If the act of levelling up doesn't give you those stats and skill points to make your character stronger, then what takes its place?

If you're suggesting there might be something like in GW2 for example - say you do a quest in the world and it gives you a skill point - that makes your character stronger. But it's still something which ultimately is moderated by time - if you remove levels you still have to incorporate time into how players progress.

All you've taken away is the visual indicator on how much time (or effort is a better term) - a player has committed to the game and therefore how strong they are.

I think levels also add a certain identity - the same way that in Runescape when you had a player like Zezima with red text (high level) - visually he looked a high level - there are some visual indicators available to help determine how a player has progressed, but with Skins etc it's not a good indicator if it's the only one.

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