Leveling Speed

Wiki says the following:

On release the developers anticipate max level should be attainable in approximately 45 days if playing 4-6 hours per day.

This is equal to ~225 hours to reach level 50. What is your opinion about it? Would you like it to be faster or slower?

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Ungohil

Flanker wrote: »

While "easy alts" are not a problem for many MMOs, they are a problem for a game like Ashes.

Why?
It‘s a sub-fee MMO. It wants to bind me, why should it be a problem to play with alts?

The variety of races, classes and professions invites us players to play alts.

If Ashes is making a problem instead a chance out of this, its doing basic design fails.

Personally, Im looking forward playing warrior and rogue, with different races and different professions, just as example (did the same in WoW all over the years, later on all races and classe with lots of alts, but they were not maintained in the same way, ofc not).
And tbh I clearly expect that the second char will have a bit of an easier life, because the main can support a bit with glint/gold, items, materials, whatever. Up from more chars it will probably be to time intensive.

And, everything done in Alpha and Beta has no relevance, all this will be gone up from release.

Flanker

Zehlan wrote: »

How Many Hours Should It Take to Reach Max Level?

Just wondering how grindy people here think the game should be to but max level? Also for this poll, assume that the server already has metropolis nodes, so you're not time gated by the node system when it comes to leveling.

I'll highlight this again, if you didn't notice it

Zehlan wrote: »

for this poll, assume that the server already has metropolis nodes, so you're not time gated by the node system when it comes to leveling.

Alright, so if you attempt to use the result of this poll as a proof, then it means you consider the results representative and valid.

Let's make some simple calculations then (you like calculations, don't you?)

And I hope you are aware of the difference between the arithmetic mean and weighed mean. Anyway, you can google it.

600 x 100 = 60,000
449 x 200 = 89,800
291 x 300 = 87,300
234 x 500 = 117,000
401 x 1000 = 401,000

60,000 + 89,800 + 87,300 + 117,000 + 401,000 = 755,100

Total number of voters:
600 + 449 + 291 + 234 + 401 = 1975

The weighed mean:
755,100 / 1975 = ~382 hours.

So on average, the voters would like to take a player to spend approximately 382 hours to reach the max level under condition of ...

Zehlan wrote: »

the server already has metropolis nodes, so you're not time gated by the node system when it comes to leveling.

I don't think I need to explain that leveling in those conditions will be significantly faster than leveling on launch, do I?

So thank you for bringing this up and proving my point once again.

P.S. Can't wait to see your made up excuses like "oh wait, no, this poll is not valid, I didn't mean it" or whatever else comes to your mind

Avada Kedavra

Flanker

Chaliux wrote: »

Flanker wrote: »

While "easy alts" are not a problem for many MMOs, they are a problem for a game like Ashes.

Why?
It‘s a sub-fee MMO. It wants to bind me, why should it be a problem to play with alts?

Well, you'd realize why when you face my 3 PK alts that were so easy to level and then throw them away.

Jokes aside (or maybe not really jokes?) that's not the main reason

Player interdependency is an important part of game's vision and philosophy. That is a reason why, for example, there is a limit for artisan skills you can become a Grandmaster at, right? Right.

Under these circumstances, nothing stops players and guilds on making alt characters and powerleveling them to skip that element. Why bother to find someone when you can just do it yourself? Taking into account all the factors mentioned in another thread, that will contribute to a much faster leveling over time - those "225 hours" may end up being "125 hours" a couple of months after the launch.

Also, under these circumstances, nothing stops players and guilds on making alts in order to grind the same instanced boss 2-3-5 times per cooldown, while you will only have a chance to do it once.

Etc.

Ungohil

Flanker, my young friend, its a MMO meant for decades. There will be severals alts and twinks, because intrepid wants us to have them. There are countless signs why it is like this. The 250h are absolutely and fully irrelevant over the time horizon Ashes is meant to be on the market for us and entertaining us.

In WoW it was/is also not possible to have all professions on one char. Also, in early WoW, you leveled them all - manually. Different races, perhaps factions, for sure classes and professions. Its as old as MMOs are. Yes, not every char will be maintained at the same level, but thats no issue at all. Its an alt, its a char playing in breaks and natural cool down phases, perhaps not at prime time, at least not during the first month of the game.

Dygz

Because it's an MMO RPG. Yes.

Flanker

Chaliux wrote: »

Flanker, my young friend

New title unlocked? I mean, am I that young though? I may look young, but I'm actually 32

Chaliux wrote: »

its a MMO meant for decades

We all hope so. If it's an MMO for decades, what's the issue with longer leveling as long as it's fun, rewarding and enjoyable?

Chaliux wrote: »

There will be severals alts and twinks

It's not a question whether there be alt or not - it is inevaitable. Their quantity though is an important variable and if it ends up being too high, it may lead to certain unpleasant consequences

Chaliux wrote: »

because intrepid wants us to have them

I don't recall them saying anything like that. Care to provide a reference?

Chaliux wrote: »

ts a char playing in breaks and natural cool down phases, perhaps not at prime time, at least not during the first month of the game.

Well, maybe you use them that way. I've seen the dark side of alts being easy to make and I don't want Ashes to face the consequences of that dark side.

Anyway, I don't mind being in a win-win situation.

If Intrepid cares to listen and implement certain changes - awesome, it will be good for the game, at least I think so.

If they don't - well, guess I'll have alts for artisan skills/PKing with no risk/dungeons/anything else I want or need. It's not the scenario I want, but if it goes that way, I will obviously take advantage of that.

P.S. @Zehlan cutie pie, I know you have already read my reply, it's a pity you failed so miserably and left in shame. I'm going to miss you, as obviously you won't come back to this thread, at least not within next couple of pages, until you get an impression that people forgot about it and/or won't go back to read it.

Zehlan

Flanker wrote: »

Zehlan wrote: »

How Many Hours Should It Take to Reach Max Level?

Just wondering how grindy people here think the game should be to but max level? Also for this poll, assume that the server already has metropolis nodes, so you're not time gated by the node system when it comes to leveling.

I'll highlight this again, if you didn't notice it

Zehlan wrote: »

for this poll, assume that the server already has metropolis nodes, so you're not time gated by the node system when it comes to leveling.

Alright, so if you attempt to use the result of this poll as a proof, then it means you consider the results representative and valid.

Let's make some simple calculations then (you like calculations, don't you?)

And I hope you are aware of the difference between the arithmetic mean and weighed mean. Anyway, you can google it.

600 x 100 = 60,000
449 x 200 = 89,800
291 x 300 = 87,300
234 x 500 = 117,000
401 x 1000 = 401,000

60,000 + 89,800 + 87,300 + 117,000 + 401,000 = 755,100

Total number of voters:
600 + 449 + 291 + 234 + 401 = 1975

The weighed mean:
755,100 / 1975 = ~382 hours.

So on average, the voters would like to take a player to spend approximately 382 hours to reach the max level under condition of ...

Zehlan wrote: »

the server already has metropolis nodes, so you're not time gated by the node system when it comes to leveling.

I don't think I need to explain that leveling in those conditions will be significantly faster than leveling on launch, do I?

So thank you for bringing this up and proving my point once again.

P.S. Can't wait to see your made up excuses like "oh wait, no, this poll is not valid, I didn't mean it" or whatever else comes to your mind

Avada Kedavra

Not at all 382 is a far cry from what you are suggesting and Is not unreasonable with that about 76 days I think most people are aiming for 2-3 months but if you want to play math majority want under 200 hours or 2 to 1 want under 300 most popular the most important was 100 hours we can play math all day if you want you will still lose. Now if you add in the newer poll showing the majority wanting 225 which shows as the game progresses the trend is leaning toward shorter time. Now I will say that's probably not going to stay there, i betting +/- of 50 hours myself after we get a ways into alpha 2.

I noticed you ignored the other poll showing 45 days and that has everyone in the comments saying how 45 days is right about perfect didn't want to use that one because you couldn't manipulate the truth in anyway on that one I guess.
I will post it again so it doesn't get buried

Steven has already confirmed on stream that the average time to reach the maximum level will be 45 days playing 4-6 hours a day, do you think this time is adequate? if a player plays 12 hours/day can reach mas level in 2 weeks

My opinion is that this is a very short time, I have serious concerns about character development, the feeling of reward for leveling up, the feeling of progression, and whether or not it will be healthy for the overall game environment.

As a former lineage player i have the memory of low level groups formed to grind in Cruma Tower , low grade pvps, small fights almost all the time, my fear is the game is too easy and the leveling becomes obsolete, and the end of the monotonous game and very dependent on the events (siege and caravans).

Sorry about my poor grammar, i'm from Brasil.
Closed • 743 total votes
]413
45 days 4-6 hours, are good enough.
174
90 days 4-6 hours, I think something more challenging is more exciting and can bring more benefits to the game.
89
180 days 4-6hours, i want be rewarded for every mob killed and that i can also stand out through my level.
67
At least a year, i dont care about casuals.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/nsvat5/about_time_do_reach_max_level/

Zehlan wrote: »

K Let's have some fun today. Flanker know all these games you have had all this experience in that is the basis for all your claims. Nothing before 18 or from pirate servers in other words servers that weren't the original companies who created the game. I do remember you saying that you had played a subscription based MMO I am curious to know that one.

I have asked this question before and got no answer asked here again and got no answer how come?

Zehlan

Flanker wrote: »

If Intrepid cares to listen and implement certain changes - awesome, it will be good for the game, at least I think so.

If they don't - well, guess I'll have alts for artisan skills/PKing with no risk/dungeons/anything else I want or need. It's not the scenario I want, but if it goes that way, I will obviously take advantage of that.[/b]

P.S. @Zehlan cutie pie, I know you have already read my reply, it's a pity you failed so miserably and left in shame. I'm going to miss you, as obviously you won't come back to this thread, at least not within next couple of pages, until you get an impression that people forgot about it and/or won't go back to read it.

See and this is the honest and reasonable thing I think you have said yet I actually respect this statement. If you would of started this thread with I love long levelling I think there would of been a completely different vibe but you started it with everyone else has to change the way they play this game.

P.S. I have mild dyslexia so it can take time to write down stuff one post took me three hours to put together the other day it's worse when I have worked a long day and sometimes tbh your not worth responding to. Oh and yes I am a fucking cutie pie

Flanker

Zehlan wrote: »

drat

Damn, this comment makes much more sense that all previous comments combined.

Zehlan wrote: »

Not at all 382 is a far cry from what you are suggesting and Is not unreasonable

I hope you didn't miss the part that those 382 hours are under condition where the world is fully developed, with metros, etc. Right? Because it that case, leveling on launch can easily take 500-600-700 hours. That would obviously be better than the current 225h.

Zehlan wrote: »

I think most people are aiming for 2-3 months but if you want to play math majority want under 200 hours or 2 to 1 want under 300 most popular the most important was 100 hours

Dude, you need to learn how to deal with numbers and how to interpret statistics properly. Seriously. I feel like I'm talking to someone who got kicked out of elementary school at the age of 37.

Zehlan wrote: »

we can play math all day if you want you will still lose

Are those mythical "mathematical victories" in the same room with you right now? Buckle up, you're going to get obliterated for the second time.

Zehlan wrote: »

I noticed you ignored the other poll showing 45 days and that has everyone in the comments saying how 45 days is right about perfect didn't want to use that one because you couldn't manipulate the truth in anyway on that one I guess.

Oh, so now what people write in comments suddenly became relevant? Very interesting. The last time I pointed out to what people write in comments, you just ignored it. What a pathetic hypocrisy.

Alright, my sweet summer mathematical genius. I was delusional enough to assume that you managed to comperehend the meaning behind the numbers in my previous comments. Here we go again.

413 x 45 = 18,585
174 x 90 = 15,660
89 x 180 = 16,020
67 x 365 = 24,455

18,585 + 15.660 + 16.020 + 24.455 = 74.720

Total number of voters:
413 + 174 + 89 + 67 = 743

The weighed mean:
74.720 / 743 = ~100 days.

What's wrong with your face now, kid? Are you going to say now that the poll is rigged and math is wrong?

Avada Kedavra 2.0

Zehlan wrote: »

I have asked this question before and got no answer asked here again and got no answer how come?

That's irrelevant but I'll answer it anyway. I played Lineage 2 Classic - it was an official server with a subscription. No idea, why you need that information, but whatever.

Flanker

Zehlan wrote: »

See and this is the honest and reasonable thing I think you have said yet I actually respect this statement.

Haven't you thought, just for a second, what if everything I wrote so far is actually honest?

Zehlan wrote: »

If you would of started this thread with I love long levelling I think there would of been a completely different vibe but you started it with everyone else has to change the way they play this game.

It doesn't matter what I like or don't like. If that was the reason why I made the suggestion, then I would write something like "Hey, I love long leveling, are there people who like too? So that if there is enough of us, we could ask Intrepid to make it longer?" Simple as that

If you actually read carefully my words that you quoted, you might end up realizing that I am suggesting something that is AGAINST my personal interests. Current leveling speed provides MORE opportunities for me, but I am fine with not having them, if it is good for the game itself.

Zehlan wrote: »

P.S. I have mild dyslexia so it can take time to write down stuff one post took me three hours to put together the other day it's worse when I have worked a long day

Understandable. If talking is easier for you than writing, feel free to drop me a line and we could schedule a 1v1 face-to-face debate, if by some miracle you are down.

Zehlan wrote: »

Oh and yes I am a fucking cutie pie

Good for you then

Zehlan

Here we go again.

413 x 45 = 18,585
174 x 90 = 15,660
89 x 180 = 16,020
67 x 365 = 24,455

18,585 + 15.660 + 16.020 + 24.455 = 74.720

Total number of voters:
413 + 174 + 89 + 67 = 743

The weighed mean:
74.720 / 743 = ~100 days.

What's wrong with your face now, kid? Are you going to say now that the poll is rigged and math is wrong?
[/quote]

Not everyone gets a metal buddy the 413 will dictate the speed this isn't socialism. What it comes down to is they will go with majority which you like to avoid. This is a business they are not going to piss of the majority and have them leave and be left with a demographic half that size so you can play games with the numbers but in the end majority rules don't like then maybe this isn't your type of game.

Flanker

Zehlan wrote: »

Not everyone gets a metal buddy the 413 will dictate the speed this isn't socialism. What it comes down to is they will go with majority which you like to avoid. This is a business they are not going to piss of the majority and have them leave and be left with a demographic half that size so you can play games with the numbers but in the end majority rules don't like then maybe this isn't your type of game.

So somehow only opinions that align with your personal preferences matter and all others don't?

I'd like to point out that in that poll...

173 + 89 + 67 = 330 players would like leveling to take at least 90 days

Which is...

330 / (413 + 173 + 89 + 67) x 100% = 44,4%

Not even mentioning that the weighed mean equals to ~100 days

P.S. As long as comments suddenly matter, go ahead and read the comments under the post on r/MMORPG: https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/1fy4h2i/can_a_grinding_mmo_survive_in_todays_market/

RocketFarmer

Is it just me or does the design seem to intend to de-emphasize alts?

I’ve always loved switching between characters for a different play experience. Experimenting with different concepts and builds.

However, limiting citizenship to only one node among other policies makes it difficult if you want to play multiple characters based in separate locations. Understand they are trying to limit those who might abuse things, but it takes a good bit of the benefits of playing alts away.

Flanker

RocketFarmer wrote: »

I’ve always loved switching between characters for a different play experience. Experimenting with different concepts and builds.

If that's your goal, make an alt on a different server with no restrictions. Not only you will have a chance for "different concepts and builds" but also an entirely different "play experience" on a server that developed and evolved in a different way than your original server.

nanfoodle

I Remeber in EQ what we called the hell levels. EQ was slow level. You could hang out in dungeons or camps sometimes for weeks before you out leveled them.

Then you hit a wall. The hell leveles.it was so long, often felt 4 x longer then a standard level. Some people even stopped playing and that's when there was no options for MMOing. EQ was the only 3D world you could RP online with friends.

So think of the MMOs over the past 15 years. The high of getting sometimes 3-5 levels in an evening. Then they try Ashes at its current rate. Average gamer will take about a year to level everything you need for a rounded build. That's just one well rounded build. How many people do you really think will stick around if IS does what you are requesting? Say what, 350-450 hours.

For most people they are not following this game closely. Every level will feel like a hell level. They will start to calculate that it going to take 2-3 years for an average player to get one buold rounded out. Not knowing that you will be playing end game style game at every level. Thinking it going to take 3 years to join end game. How many players will we lose?

220hrs for main path and maybe 50-100 hours to round out for all the builds you want to play. Ashes needs people subbing to make money. They need to make a profit.

If myself a old school MMOer is saying and seems to be just not me. That your idea will not work, especially with the current market. What more can be said.

I watch your vids but I don't agree with everything you say. Why this bone is something you won't let go of. I have to ask. What is the need (what you really want) behind the need (wanting leveling to take much longer). What is the one thing above any other you want this more then anyone else?

ShaggyRyn

I would say that around 500 hours would be better. I hate when the goal of the game is to rush to max level so you can start playing the game. The game (leveling) is what we came to play. I get that means it will take casual people awhile to hit max but that shouldn't matter if they are having fun. Fun and diverse gameplay loops will keep people engaged and excited to log in every day.

Caeryl

RocketFarmer wrote: »

Is it just me or does the design seem to intend to de-emphasize alts?

I’ve always loved switching between characters for a different play experience. Experimenting with different concepts and builds.

However, limiting citizenship to only one node among other policies makes it difficult if you want to play multiple characters based in separate locations. Understand they are trying to limit those who might abuse things, but it takes a good bit of the benefits of playing alts away.

You're correct, numerous alts isn't a playstyle they want to support, and that's on purpose.

For the same reason they're not going to allow character name-changes, alts are taxing to maintain and level to effectiveness. They want you to be forced to rely on other players, so self-sufficiency is made extremely difficult. They want players to spy on each other as a sort of strife generator/'gameplay' loop, bad for the game imo but that's what they want, so the level of alts can clue other into them being either 1) new 2) potentially a spy if they're 'too' knowledgeable about the game. It becomes too easy to crank out junker spy characters if leveling is too short, but too difficult to tell one from a genuine character if leveling is too long.

The 45 day range is a cushy spot that requires at least a few weeks to reach a spot of engaging with the game seriously (secondary archetype threshold), but isn't so restrictive that you couldn't make spies as a part of guild v guild conflict.

Pendragxn

Caeryl wrote: »

You're correct, numerous alts isn't a playstyle they want to support, and that's on purpose.

For the same reason they're not going to allow character name-changes, alts are taxing to maintain and level to effectiveness. They want you to be forced to rely on other players, so self-sufficiency is made extremely difficult. They want players to spy on each other as a sort of strife generator/'gameplay' loop, bad for the game imo but that's what they want, so the level of alts can clue other into them being either 1) new 2) potentially a spy if they're 'too' knowledgeable about the game. It becomes too easy to crank out junker spy characters if leveling is too short, but too difficult to tell one from a genuine character if leveling is too long.

The 45 day range is a cushy spot that requires at least a few weeks to reach a spot of engaging with the game seriously (secondary archetype threshold), but isn't so restrictive that you couldn't make spies as a part of guild v guild conflict.

There are easy ways to prevent that like having someone post their character screen before they join the guild. I mean if someone wants to go through the length of having 2 accounts and double subbing then fair play to them. I’m pretty sure there are some games that also have rules like you can only have one account or no multi-boxing.

Worst thing is insider threat from people in the guild or alliance who aren’t happy that are maybe thinking of leaving or feeling left out. Those are the types of people who you need to watch out for that can be persuaded to spy or leak information. Also being strict with who can stream Zerg fights or even how they stream them like blocking out the map or putting a delay as not to give away your location or position.

Flanker

nanfoodle wrote: »

Ashes needs people subbing to make money. They need to make a profit.

Exactly. If you take a look at subscription only, a single player who plays for 2 years is more valuable than 10 players who play for 2 months and leave

nanfoodle wrote: »

Why this bone is something you won't let go of. I have to ask.

For a long list of reasons I mentioned in this thread: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/60737/ashes-of-creation-must-dodge-this-bullet/p1

While you might consider some of them not that critical, combine all others and take a look at their total cumulative effect.

Flanker

Pendragxn wrote: »

There are easy ways to prevent that like having someone post their character screen before they join the guild. I mean if someone wants to go through the length of having 2 accounts and double subbing then fair play to them.

In any guild there will be at least one player (most likely much more than that) who wouldn't mind spending $15/month for the benefit of the whole guild, as the potential ROI on having a spy in a rival guild may be huge.

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