Resurrection during combat

So during the Dev stream, while the raid was fighting the dragon. Steven (and others) were resurrecting people who had died. I was wondering what everyone feels about resurrecting people mid fight? I know Steven had GM powers on, which made it appear to be much easier to do than it actually is, but i'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on it anyways.

My thought is that if you're going to allow people to be resurrected during combat, there are a couple of things to consider:

1. The cooldown of the resurrect ability. Should there be one? Should you be able to chain cast your rez if you have it?
2. Diminishing returns - Should there be a defined period of time that must elapse before you can accept another rez? (i.e. you must wait 30 seconds to be rezzed again after receiving a rez, with subsequent rezzes requiring more and more time.)

What are your thoughts?

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Arya_Yeshe

Githal wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Githal wrote: »

so in 40 man raid, if you have 5 clerics (1 for every 8 players). You get: 40 res from scrolls + 40 res from the 5 clerics mass resurrect + 5 resurrects every 5 mins.
So you want to tell me 90-100 resurrects in 1 fight is acceptable for 40 players?

Yeah, if you want to use them all up.

I'm not sure why you would, as if you are needing that many, clearly you are doing something wrong.

Having access to that amount of resurrection capacity doesn't mean you want to use it all, nor that you should use it all. If you use all of those resurrections because you needed to use them all, you are still going to fail at killing the encounter - so you are only wasting your own time and resources by doing so.

In this situation, it doesn't even matter if this is PvE or PvP, if you use that amount of resurrection resources, you've lost. More resurrection resources used just means you lost even more.

From a PvP perspective, thrashing a rival guild and watching them resurrect mid fight in order to attempt to keep things going - but thrashing them anyway is just one of lifes little joys.

In the Firebrand showcase. We saw more than 40 resurrects. and in the end they managed to kill it. And without those resurrects they would have failed. So i disagree.

they only died that much because they are still noobs in that content, when the real meta pve farmers come up they won't die that much and with ressurection it will be too easy

Arya_Yeshe

People will not this much when they learn the content and specialize in it, they will make the Intrepid team look like noobs, so don't take the stream as a rule o thumb since the team absolutely doesnt play AoC as much as the future hardcore carebears will run it

Mag7spy

iccer wrote: »

Resurrection during combat is absolutely necessary.

It should be risky, but if you pull it off, you get rewarded for it - and I'm talking about mass ress here. High risk could be longer cast time for example, but not too long. Enemies should have the ability to react to someone casting it, and interrupt them, but it shouldn't be too long, where you will always be interrupted.
Cooldown around 20-30min, sure, but what if you don't finish the cast? Should it be fully reset, fully on cd, or somewhere in between?
Test, and see what works.

In my opinion, only the Cleric should have access to such ability, while others can use scrolls. Maybe summoner can get it's own version of single target res, especially if they're a Cleric as a secondary.

If you pull off a good mass res, you can turn the tide of a battle.

I'm going to make an assumption here that might as well be wrong, but I think those who are against combat res in PvP, simply haven't played any games with open-world mass PvP.

Naa because ive done so much pvp i know mass combat res is kind of very dumb. Exactly why the idea of all these limits are brought up for when you are resed, long cooldowns, restrictions, etc. Because its a broken ability that is mandatory in all content in the game.

If you lose the fight the fight should be over, it shouldnt be you trying to run 10 clerics and trying to res people every second until one goes though and cycling it.

That or other classes need skills equal in power to mass res on long cooldown where they can nuke tons of people for super high dmg, blow people up with a skill, have strong forms of debuffs like being unable to cast in an area for long durations, etc.

This idea its hard to get a combat res off in large scale combat is also very silly, you also have people supporting you from being killed and cc'd.

Ludullu

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Well, think about this, some classes will have mana and other classes will have something else

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Mana
Mana is an Universal archetype resource in Ashes of Creation.[1][2][3]

Resting and mana regeneration.[4]
As you know, a classic MMO thing to do is to sit and rest as you get your resources back.[5] – Steven Sharif

All archetypes use mana to varying degrees.[1][2]
Even pure melee players use mana to manipulate The Essence for their extraordinary abilities.[6]

Noaani

Githal wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Githal wrote: »

I thought players wanted harder PVE content. If you have 100 potential resurrects in 1 fight. Even the hardest bosses will be trivial if you are willing to invest into killing them.

I hate to say it, but this is absolutely spoken like someone that has no clue.

If you have infinate resurrects, a hard encounter is still hard. If you are taking the fight on the wrong way, you will not kill it.

Ever.

If you are taking it on the right way, you probably don't need any ressurects at all.

Having more resurrect capacity means those that have no clue (poke poke) simply end up costing their raid/guild more because they don't know when to call the pull and try something different. Again, this applies as much to PvP as it does PvE.

What you are talking about will apply if the boss has some kind of Instant Wipe mechanics. And this wont be the case with AOC since its open world.

It will apply if there is an instant wipe, but it will also apply if the boss has any number of other mechanics. Rage timers and equivlent mechanics are fairly common, a mob that spawns a significant number of strog adds will prevent you from killing the encounter if your raid die a lot, mechanics that heal the mob will be an issue, mobs that regenerate will be an issue - there is a lot more than just mobs with instant wipe abilities.

As to your comment about open world - the encounters in an open world setting pit your raid against others involved to essentially see who can do the most DPS. If you are having to resurrect people often, that clearly won't be your raid. In this situation, while the mob may die, you don't get anything at all for it.

And you are talking here some complete noobies, And even they will be able to kill a hard boss.
For a group that is doing the highest mythic dungeons in WOW or hardest raids in other games,
Even if AOC create hard enough boss, with infinite resurrects the boss will be still trivial

STEVEN is talking that only like 10% of the population will be able to clear the hardest contents. And what you are talking is like: Everyone can clear the hardest content, just invest some more in ingame gold beforehand.

Again, spoken like someone that has no clue.

Vargan

Some folks keep forgetting that the main inspiration for Ashes comes from Lineage II and ArcheAge. This will not be a typical MMO with classic raid encounters, where guilds will compete over "who can do the most DPS" on the boss. There will be a bloodbath every single time, and organized guilds will control access to the boss itself. If you're part of a small, niche group, chances are you probably won't even get to hit the boss, or get past the entrance of a dungeon.

Noaani

Xit wrote: »

Some folks keep forgetting that the main inspiration for Ashes comes from Lineage II and ArcheAge.

I think you are slightly mistaken here.

We know where Steven is pulling his ideas for the game from, many of us even spent years in those games. However, Intrepid are the ones showing off raid content.

Steven has specifically stated that he is aware that there are some things the developers want to do with encounters that can't be done in the open world - due to that bloodbath you talk about. This is what happened most of the time in L2 and Archeage, and Steven is well aware that if Ashes is to have anything that is considered "good" PvE, that needs to be avoided.

This is why Ashes is slated to have 20% of it's content instanced.

However, most of us talking here - especially those of us that have been here for a few years - are almost always thinking about the game in terms of the open world, as well as the potential for instances.

iccer

Mag7spy wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

Resurrection during combat is absolutely necessary.

It should be risky, but if you pull it off, you get rewarded for it - and I'm talking about mass ress here. High risk could be longer cast time for example, but not too long. Enemies should have the ability to react to someone casting it, and interrupt them, but it shouldn't be too long, where you will always be interrupted.
Cooldown around 20-30min, sure, but what if you don't finish the cast? Should it be fully reset, fully on cd, or somewhere in between?
Test, and see what works.

In my opinion, only the Cleric should have access to such ability, while others can use scrolls. Maybe summoner can get it's own version of single target res, especially if they're a Cleric as a secondary.

If you pull off a good mass res, you can turn the tide of a battle.

I'm going to make an assumption here that might as well be wrong, but I think those who are against combat res in PvP, simply haven't played any games with open-world mass PvP.

If you lose the fight the fight should be over, it shouldnt be you trying to run 10 clerics and trying to res people every second until one goes though and cycling it.

Which is why there should be a debuff applied to everyone, when someone uses the ability, or at least to those who got resurrected. This way, you cannot have different Clerics spamming mass res, constantly reviving everyone.

scottstone7

There should be a cool down on all forms of resurrection.

I'd say the ability for a cleric should be limited to rank 1 or 2 and have a 10 second cast time, at least 15 but no more than 30 second cool down and have a mana cost on the higher end. The High Priest should get to max out the ability rank with same cast time and cool down but maybe a lower mana cost.

Scrolls of resurrection shouldn't be a thing, that being said, I grudgingly admit it would be useful to have them available. Scrolls should have a cast time of at least 30 seconds and 60 to 90 minute cool down. Scrolls are a bit of a slippery slope, if everyone has easy access to them then it invalidates part of the role of clerics. Therefore they should not be widely available, easy to acquire or cheap. They should be a last ditch emergency use only type deal. I'd be perfectly happy if they end up as a guild only purchase tied to whatever guild purchased them and each guild can only have a small limited number, lets say 10, at any given time.

daveywavey wrote: »

Resurrection during combat is essential.

That is an extremely true statement.

daveywavey wrote: »

It opens up so many more options, and means that once somebody dies, if the fight goes on for another 20mins, that they get to actually join in, rather than either lying there being useless or having to port to the nearest resurrection shrine and being useless.

Also a partially true statement, but one with some caveats to it. As a very long time healer I do feel the need to point out these caveats.

How well does the dead player know how to play their specific role?
How often does the dead player die?
Tied directly to the previous question; How often does the dead player do something stupid or unnecessarily flashy to get themselves killed?
Given the current state of the battle, is it more or less efficient time and mana-wise to revive the dead player or heal others?

A hard bit of truth that most people don't like to admit, even more so when they are one, there are players that at any given time even alive are just useless as a dead player. Some even more so, by being just alive they are a detriment the teams around them. Refusing to follow orders, not paying attention, not keeping their mouth shut when the grown ups are talking.

daveywavey wrote: »

All archetypes should be able to do it, with different degrees of efficiency.

Absolutely not. This should remain with the cleric class only. I'd honestly go so far as to say the High Priest class only. I'll be playing a High Priest but I mean, if you are going to be handing out class skills, gimmie Aegis from the tanks, Blink from the mages, Cathartic Melody and Cheerful Melody from the bards, Disengage from the rangers and lets see.... Throw in a Blood Fusion from the fighters too.

Electronn

AlmostDead wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

All archetypes should be able to do it, with different degrees of efficiency.

I completely disagree with this. While we are at it, maybe give every class blink and shield wall too?

As stated in a previous thread, once you start giving every class every ability, it erodes class identity and the fun of playing (for me anyway).

I personally don't like the scrolls, but if they have a long cd for the party/raid, like 15 minutes, and they are weak rezzes, then ok. The Cleric should have the best rez with the ability to spec skill points into a very strong rez with shortest cd, shortest cast time and reduced death penalties. I think Cleric and the scrolls should be the only battle rez (again, with scrolls being weak and having a long cd). Give the bard and maybe summoner a weak rez without the ability to rez in combat, just to help alleviate the annoyance of corpse runs.

Resurrection, especially during combat, should be viewed as a very powerful ability that can save the group in an epic fashion and must be used strategically. Not something everyone is running around doing with 10+ rezzes during every encounter. There were WAY too many resurrections during the Firebrand fight.

Also, scrolls should be a high end crafted item.

For anyone particularly interested in Ashes' approach to Rez ability, there was a discussion on this in the recent Yokai Theatre roundtable discussion with Steven.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4k5NSD9Bes

Mark 42:43

Steven:
"There will very likely be a consumable item that can be crafted that will essentially be a resurrection scroll, that will either have a very long cast time associated with it and a high mana consumption use, and it will likely revive the player at extremely low mana and health, and not return any xp debt back to the player. If we are talking about Resurrection as an ability, that lives squarely within the Cleric realm, obviously that gets expanded out when we talk about the class structure and the 8 different types of Clerics there will be. But the Cleric is going to reserve the ability to return xp debt to the player on resurrection."

A couple minutes later he added...

"Resurrection, tactical resurrection, battle resurrection or whatever you want to call it, it has an upside and it has a downside. The downside is you're coming back in a very vulnerable state. You have the ability with ease to lose additional xp debt when you're in that vulnerable state, and you better be careful about using it in an engagement because not only as a Cleric are you a target when you use that long cast, but as a resurrected player you're not moving positions either, so you're resurrecting on the spot."

As a future Cleric, I was mildly satisfied with what he had to say. It sounds like non-Cleric rezzes will be extremely weak, time consuming and vulnerable, and really only intended to reduce corpse runs after a near-wipe, or maybe in a very rare case it could save your party by getting your Cleric up if he/she goes down. But other than a very rare case, it doesn't really sound like rez scrolls are going to be a viable way to save your party during battle in pve or pvp. Happy to hear that.

A win for class identity!

Sathrago

rezzing in combat is fine. put a hefty mana cost on it and you now have to decide between maintaining your current group or spending that mana to bring back an impactful member. It can be interrupted, and takes a long time to cast making them extremely vulnerable to both pvp and pve attacks. If the healers are casting rez they are not healing for a good 10 seconds.

A key thing to remember is that death will come with hefty downsides, and the lower drop rate debuff alone could make it sub optimal to even want to rez people at bosses.

Lodrig

Taerrik wrote: »

In a PvE only scenario, you only lose if you quit.
Its not like a PvP or PvX scenario, or open world encounters where there are variables beyond just learning how the boss works. These bosses are just built different, simpler mechanics that don't take weeks to learn either, because in PvX, you can know everything and still lose.

Nope, the games death debuff is going to make you weaker and weaker to the point where the Mob your fighting is just gonna wipe the floor with you. Cleric Rez allows you to avoid EXP debt, but not death debuffs.

This is something 90% of the commentors here are either ignorant of or are ignoring.

Voeltz

Combat rezzing is fine but it needs to have a long cast time, cooldown, high mana cost and be exclusive to the Cleric. Group rez is too broken to have in game. Rez scrolls need to be expensive with a 30+ minute CD and long cast time if Interpid is planning on having them. Warhammer had them with similar restrictions and they were rarely used which is how it should be. Also the fact resurrections in Ashes will not pull you to the healer's location is a game changer and a positive balance change.

Vargan

Ressurection parameters also need to be balanced according to TTK.

daveywavey

scottstone7 wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

All archetypes should be able to do it, with different degrees of efficiency.

Absolutely not. This should remain with the cleric class only. I'd honestly go so far as to say the High Priest class only. I'll be playing a High Priest but I mean, if you are going to be handing out class skills, gimmie Aegis from the tanks, Blink from the mages, Cathartic Melody and Cheerful Melody from the bards, Disengage from the rangers and lets see.... Throw in a Blood Fusion from the fighters too.

In ESO, we say it's the Healer's job to Heal, cos while they're reviving somebody else, two more players die. So, the DDs do the reviving, and the Healers stick to the Healing.

There are different ways to approach content. Just cos you've always done it that way, doesn't mean it's the only way.

Pendragxn

There should be combat res for cleric or some of the hybrid off-cleric classes such as you have an off-tank or a back up. I’m fine with resurrections as long as they’re not constantly
spammed or over used. The point of a res is there for an emergency or if people mess up on a boss or something, however the whole point is not to wipe in the first place.

I’m also cool with resurrection scrolls for single players or an AOE res on a high cooldown, and I even think it’s interesting for PvP but has to be limited compared to PvE. I’m even open to guild skills for resurrecting multiple people but it has to have a high cooldown not spammable. That could also be a diminishing return for the guild number cap that once you go over a certain amount of players you can’t use the guild res skill anymore and have to rely on individuals to res people.

Electronn

daveywavey wrote: »

scottstone7 wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

All archetypes should be able to do it, with different degrees of efficiency.

Absolutely not. This should remain with the cleric class only. I'd honestly go so far as to say the High Priest class only. I'll be playing a High Priest but I mean, if you are going to be handing out class skills, gimmie Aegis from the tanks, Blink from the mages, Cathartic Melody and Cheerful Melody from the bards, Disengage from the rangers and lets see.... Throw in a Blood Fusion from the fighters too.

In ESO, we say it's the Healer's job to Heal, cos while they're reviving somebody else, two more players die. So, the DDs do the reviving, and the Healers stick to the Healing.

There are different ways to approach content. Just cos you've always done it that way, doesn't mean it's the only way.

Or keep it Cleric only and make it an instant cast, so two more players don't die during the cast.

There are different ways to approach content. Just cos you've always done it that way, doesn't mean it's the only way.

Obviously being a little facetious, but the important point is that it's more important to maintain class identity. I don't think fighters and rogues should be the rez class because of a long cast time on the rez. That's just wrong, and very detrimental to class identity.

Also, if a Cleric needed to build up charges for the brez, and further have a long cd on the brez (maybe 5-10 min), an instant cast really is not the worst idea. It's a moot point because I don't see it going in that direction, but definitely a better idea than making rogues and fighters the rez class. Luckily based on Steven's comments during Yokai's discussion, that's not something we need to worry about.

Vargan

The current cast time for Ressurect can be seen on the updated official website:

https://strapi-prod-bucket-k5d2g5.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Cleric_Resurrect_f228555d19.mp4#t=0.001

Aniky

Depraved wrote: »

i dont mind combat res in pve but I don't like it In pvp

It's look like will happen, because Pve and PvP are together in the most of systems.

Aniky

I saw great ideas here about ress. But we will really see it when we play the game, test the system, see the difficulties, etc. Because out of the game, we just have speculations.

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