Economics using the example of transport.

Podgnil wrote: »

I think most of us agree that fast travel is evil.

Yes, much evil.

How dare people think they could do activities in a game that they actually enjoy doing!

No peasant, you will not have fun, you will walk!

spawn33

I literally hate walking long distances in mmos. In first few days its nice and fun seeing new places and views along the way but it quickly becomes like a low salary 8-5 job.

spawn33 wrote: »

I literally hate walking long distances in mmos. In first few days its nice and fun seeing new places and views along the way but it quickly becomes like a low salary 8-5 job.

Due to fast movements, the value of extracted resources in hard-to-reach places decreases, and the integrity of the world decreases, there is TL where you can teleport literally anywhere in a second, for me this is a casual approach that does not suit the AoC world, and if I’m not mistaken, the developers also spoke out against it. You can allow rapid movement between high-level nodes, which I also think should not be free. But the journey should remain a journey, not an interface.

Podgnil wrote: »

spawn33 wrote: »

I literally hate walking long distances in mmos. In first few days its nice and fun seeing new places and views along the way but it quickly becomes like a low salary 8-5 job.

Due to fast movements, the value of extracted resources in hard-to-reach places decreases, and the integrity of the world decreases

While this is all true, these are each individual puzzles that have multiple methods to solve them.

Opting for a method to solve them that essentially cuts large amounts of fun for people paying to play a game (ie, paying to have fun) seems somewhat counter productive.

In regards to resources specifically, making it so they are hard to get, rather than tedious to get to, is a far superior means of solving that particular puzzle.

You are adding fun, rather than subtracting it.

Sure, Ashes is going for nearly no fast travel, but that doesn't mean they made the right decision.

The only "Public" transport i have ever heard of for AOC is:

If there are multiple scientific metropolises, then an airship will provide faster travel between those scientific metropolises for citizens of those nodes and their vassal nodes, so long as the metropolises are not at war.[31]

spawn33

Podgnil wrote: »

But the journey should remain a journey, not an interface.

Hard agree. Im not all for fast travel but they need to make it somehow enjoyable/easier so that we wont spend tens of minutes going back and forth to complete a quest.

By the way, one thing that pisses me off is when there is a mountain, steep way, hill in front of us that our character cant just go above so we have to walk all the way arround that obstacle. This is one of the many reasons why i quit NW lol.

spawn33 wrote: »

Podgnil wrote: »

But the journey should remain a journey, not an interface.

Hard agree. Im not all for fast travel but they need to make it somehow enjoyable/easier so that we wont spend tens of minutes going back and forth to complete a quest.

Ye.. it will be.... maybe...
When you die 3 times by being chased by wolfs during your 10 min travel (making it 20 min travel with the deaths). you will have your fun

spawn33 wrote: »

By the way, one thing that pisses me off is when there is a mountain, steep way, hill in front of us that our character cant just go above so we have to walk all the way arround that obstacle. This is one of the many reasons why i quit NW lol.

Most games has this. Even Wow is like this before you get your fly mount.

spawn33

Githal wrote: »

spawn33 wrote: »

Podgnil wrote: »

But the journey should remain a journey, not an interface.

Hard agree. Im not all for fast travel but they need to make it somehow enjoyable/easier so that we wont spend tens of minutes going back and forth to complete a quest.

Ye.. it will be.... maybe...
When you die 3 times by being chased by wolfs during your 10 min travel (making it 20 min travel with the deaths). you will have your fun

Surely I will, surely..

Githal wrote: »

spawn33 wrote: »

Podgnil wrote: »

But the journey should remain a journey, not an interface.

Hard agree. Im not all for fast travel but they need to make it somehow enjoyable/easier so that we wont spend tens of minutes going back and forth to complete a quest.

Ye.. it will be.... maybe...
When you die 3 times by being chased by wolfs during your 10 min travel (making it 20 min travel with the deaths). you will have your fun

I already enjoy it playing classic Warcraft. Sometimes knowing that the cemetery is far away, oh how you don’t want to die. You use up all your cooldowns, drink all the potions you have, so as not to die in the middle of nowhere. Risk versus reward. And the “I pay for entertainment - I want to have fun” approach has already turned some well-known MMOs into games services. And it gave birth to a trend in which 90% of new MMOs are released as services, AoC positions itself as a counterbalance to this phenomenon, and wants to be an mmorpg. And not the place where you open the menu, you poke the dungeon and you’re there, you poke into the area with ore and after 2 minutes you’re dripping ore...
Well, the thread is not about fast travel, but about the economy, and the opportunity for players to invest in the development of other people’s nodes in order to make a profit)

Podgnil wrote: »

And the “I pay for entertainment - I want to have fun” approach has already turned some well-known MMOs into games services.

You mean those games with 10 times the population that Ashes will ever have?

The other point with your argument here in regards to not wanting to die in WoW, that is also not necessarily a factor of fast travel in a game.

If you are running content that has the potential to kill you, you are already at the point where you are having the fun you paid for. If a developer wants to make it so there is a risk vs reward element in relation to a time penalty in getting back to where you were should you die, all they need to do is be strategic with respawn locations.

Again, every argument against fast travel is it's own puzzle that is best solved via other methods. A game is better off if the developers develop those other methods in to their game, as they have the potential to add fun to the game, rather than remove it.

Noaani wrote: »

Podgnil wrote: »

And the “I pay for entertainment - I want to have fun” approach has already turned some well-known MMOs into games services.

You mean those games with 10 times the population that Ashes will ever have?

The other point with your argument here in regards to not wanting to die in WoW, that is also not necessarily a factor of fast travel in a game.

If you are running content that has the potential to kill you, you are already at the point where you are having the fun you paid for. If a developer wants to make it so there is a risk vs reward element in relation to a time penalty in getting back to where you were should you die, all they need to do is be strategic with respawn locations.

Again, every argument against fast travel is it's own puzzle that is best solved via other methods. A game is better off if the developers develop those other methods in to their game, as they have the potential to add fun to the game, rather than remove it.

As they say:
You should enjoy the travel, instead to take it as some burden until you reach your destination.
(not talking about games only)

also i expect AOC to have greater population than any other mmo, but we shall see.

Noaani wrote: »

Again, every argument against fast travel is it's own puzzle that is best solved via other methods. A game is better off if the developers develop those other methods in to their game, as they have the potential to add fun to the game, rather than remove it.

The endless addition of pleasures leads to its hyperinflation. Yes, it’s probably difficult for people who sit on TikTok for half a day to get dopamine from a long journey from planning their trip, take the necessary provisions with them and decide that today I’m leaving to farm the skins of polar bears beyond the mountains to the north. And naturally, go there for your entire gaming evening. They need pia pow, I'm here, I'm there... I registered a dungeon from the interface, flew there, carried it in 15 minutes, gave everyone a chest, flew back, farmanuled 4 more bears, registered a PVP battleground, flew there, waved my ax for 15 minutes, returned to the original coordinates further ran... But this is exactly the spirit of the old mmos, when you wrote out of happiness after meeting an ally on an elite mob and teaming up with him for victory, when your palms sweated at the sight of a red nickname on the horizon, there was a feeling of danger. This is an MMO and not sitting in the capital and registering activities through the launcher, I think there are plenty of such games now, and AoC found the greatest interest and love of the public precisely in the fact that it is not like them.
Happiness, like fun, has a price; when everyone is made strong, no one is strong; when everyone is made happy, no one is happy. When the fun is very simple, it quickly gets boring.

Githal wrote: »

also i expect AOC to have greater population than any other mmo, but we shall see.

It won't. 6 months after launch, it will count it's active users in the tens or hundreds of thousands, not millions - definately not tens of millions.

As to enjoying the journey, that isn't something you do just because people tell you that you should.

If we are to enjoy the journey, that should be because the developer of the game made the journey enjoyable. If the journey is enjoyable, there is no reason to have things like dungeons.

Fact is, travel is travel. It is what you do to get to the thing you want or need to be doing. If I am heading out to a show, or to a sports game, or for some bowling, or for dinner with friends, I'm not planning on enjoying the journey - the journey is the thing I do in order to get to the thing I want to be doing.

Same in games, the journey isn't fun. It is what you do to get to the fun. It should be minimalized in terms of the time players need to spend on it.

Nerror

Yes, the game will have public transportation: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Public_transportation

Noaani wrote: »

Githal wrote: »

also i expect AOC to have greater population than any other mmo, but we shall see.

It won't. 6 months after launch, it will count it's active users in the tens or hundreds of thousands, not millions - definately not tens of millions.

As to enjoying the journey, that isn't something you do just because people tell you that you should.

If we are to enjoy the journey, that should be because the developer of the game made the journey enjoyable. If the journey is enjoyable, there is no reason to have things like dungeons.

Fact is, travel is travel. It is what you do to get to the thing you want or need to be doing. If I am heading out to a show, or to a sports game, or for some bowling, or for dinner with friends, I'm not planning on enjoying the journey - the journey is the thing I do in order to get to the thing I want to be doing.

Same in games, the journey isn't fun. It is what you do to get to the fun. It should be minimalized in terms of the time players need to spend on it.

Well from what i am seeing the journey itself will be fun. With unexpected quests or events happening near you while you are on your way to finish a quest. World boss appearing, or some pvp caravan event. and ect.
The quests themselves will lead you to points of interests where things are happening.

And dont get me wrong. We all know there will be drop of players from the launch of the game.
BUT. no matter how "boring" the travel is. It will always be more interesting than what WOW for example provide. Wow is just some pve simulator, where you do the same Sh*t 200 times. Nothing changes. Maybe just some mythic + traits that give the mobs few more things. Everything else is the same. And you do this for 2 years every day/week until the new expansion. So ye, i do believe wow is dead after aoc launch, and not coz i expect AOC to be the best game that will ever exist, but because WOW is sh*t.

Noaani wrote: »

Githal wrote: »

also i expect AOC to have greater population than any other mmo, but we shall see.

It won't. 6 months after launch, it will count it's active users in the tens or hundreds of thousands, not millions - definately not tens of millions.

As to enjoying the journey, that isn't something you do just because people tell you that you should.

If we are to enjoy the journey, that should be because the developer of the game made the journey enjoyable. If the journey is enjoyable, there is no reason to have things like dungeons.

Fact is, travel is travel. It is what you do to get to the thing you want or need to be doing. If I am heading out to a show, or to a sports game, or for some bowling, or for dinner with friends, I'm not planning on enjoying the journey - the journey is the thing I do in order to get to the thing I want to be doing.

Same in games, the journey isn't fun. It is what you do to get to the fun. It should be minimalized in terms of the time players need to spend on it.

Is it possible to disagree? If I go to the cinema with my wife and children, I go to spend time with my family first of all and therefore to watch a film that I may or may not like) When I go to billiards or bowling with friends I go to spend time with friends, drink beer, laugh, tell your friend some stories. And it doesn’t matter whether I’m already at the cinema or just on my way there, whether I’m throwing a ball at the bowling alley or just meeting friends in the park. When you go to a football match, if there wasn’t an atmosphere of excitement, a street full of people with flags and shouts for their team, there wouldn’t be a full stadium of people cheering and supporting their team, it would be interesting to sit alone in the stands and walk along empty outside for a match? Would the emotions from watching such a match be equal to the emotions from going to Elclasico? Football is more convenient and enjoyable to watch while sitting on the sofa, you can see the moments better, but you go to the stadium for emotions. The path is greater than the goal)

Podgnil wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Githal wrote: »

also i expect AOC to have greater population than any other mmo, but we shall see.

It won't. 6 months after launch, it will count it's active users in the tens or hundreds of thousands, not millions - definately not tens of millions.

As to enjoying the journey, that isn't something you do just because people tell you that you should.

If we are to enjoy the journey, that should be because the developer of the game made the journey enjoyable. If the journey is enjoyable, there is no reason to have things like dungeons.

Fact is, travel is travel. It is what you do to get to the thing you want or need to be doing. If I am heading out to a show, or to a sports game, or for some bowling, or for dinner with friends, I'm not planning on enjoying the journey - the journey is the thing I do in order to get to the thing I want to be doing.

Same in games, the journey isn't fun. It is what you do to get to the fun. It should be minimalized in terms of the time players need to spend on it.

Is it possible to disagree? If I go to the cinema with my wife and children, I go to spend time with my family first of all and therefore to watch a film that I may or may not like) When I go to billiards or bowling with friends I go to spend time with friends, drink beer, laugh, tell your friend some stories. And it doesn’t matter whether I’m already at the cinema or just on my way there, whether I’m throwing a ball at the bowling alley or just meeting friends in the park. When you go to a football match, if there wasn’t an atmosphere of excitement, a street full of people with flags and shouts for their team, there wouldn’t be a full stadium of people cheering and supporting their team, it would be interesting to sit alone in the stands and walk along empty outside for a match? Would the emotions from watching such a match be equal to the emotions from going to Elclasico? Football is more convenient and enjoyable to watch while sitting on the sofa, you can see the moments better, but you go to the stadium for emotions. The path is greater than the goal)

The example i would give would be smth like:
You go to College, The goal is the piece of paper you will get (with some knowledge).
The "travel" is the 4-5 years that you will be there.
Option 1: you ignore everything else while you are entitled to reach the end of this journey.
the result - you wasted 4-5 years for a piece of paper, and knowledge that if you studied on your own you would get for 6 months the same amount of knowledge (maybe even more)

Option 2: you enjoy the college life, make friends, go clubbing at night, even the classes can be fun with the right company. The journey itself is fulfilling. In the end you get the piece of paper anyway. Ofc there should be times during this journey where you take your studies seriously to get some knowledge anyway,

And the difference between those 2 options is mostly in the way of thinking. Do you think that those 4 years are just a road to get the degree, or you think that these are 4 wonderful years of your life.

Githal wrote: »

Well from what i am seeing the journey itself will be fun. With unexpected quests or events happening near you while you are on your way to finish a quest.

How is that fun?

If you gather a group of people together for a specific goal, the game putting unnecessary barriers in your way is not fun.

And dont get me wrong. We all know there will be drop of players from the launch of the game.
BUT. no matter how "boring" the travel is. It will always be more interesting than what WOW for example provide. Wow is just some pve simulator, where you do the same Sh*t 200 times. Nothing changes.

I'm not going to state whether I agree or disagree, I'm just going to point out that there are more than just these two options.

Saying "this shit thing is shit, but at least it is better than that other more shit thing" isn't an overly good defense of the initial shit thing.