Lawless zones need to be a permanent feature

Alright, we all know that PvP is a highly contentious subject right now.

Many people are saying making PvP toggleable. Many say make PvE servers. Many say remove corruption.

All of those ideas are bad. Now, I'm not saying my idea is the answer, but I'm offering appeasement. I also want to make it abundantly clear we're nowhere near when features and systems are being refined. We're not even a month into preliminary stability testing. We're only making sure the game plays normally and stays online.

I heavily believe that this game needs to remain true to its form: PvP anywhere, anytime---but at a cost. You need repercussions for killing someone in normal zones. But corruption is a bit heavy-handed (we also know it's temporarily over tuned). If someone takes my corpse loot, I can't fight them for my loot back because I get penalized with corruption even though they were the thief. That's a small example, but not this post's point...

The point of this post is that lawless zones need to be a core part of the world, and not just on the seas.

As of now, lawless zones are only intended to remain in the Alpha and not the actual game upon release. From the AoC Wiki: "Lawless zones are open-world areas where the corruption system is disabled. These are intended to be an Alpha-2-only feature to help test what will become open-sea content."

There should always be the threat of PvP in the normal zones, and it should come with corruption (agreeable). That adds interest and risk to the gameplay. It also makes gankers think twice before jumping on you.

But there needs to be lawless zones with attractions to bring people into the zones so those PvP maniacs can get their fill. This will offer more balance to the gameplay, giving a place for PvPers to go knowing they will always get sum' and even deter them from becoming griefers because it's their only option.

I think there are plenty of PvP events planned already, but a lot of PvPers aren't satisfied with it. I hope this helps.

...

Friendly note: don't get angry about features and systems until well into Phase 3 of Alpha. That's when they're going to start fleshing these things out. If it's still bad at the end of Phase 3, then you can be mad. Also, don't tell me this game was marketed as a "PvP game." It's always been PvX, and corruption was always on the docket.

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daveywavey

mainedutch wrote: »

I think you're missing my point entirely.

I agree with corruption 100% to deter griefing, and I know you can technically fight anywhere. That's not the point of this post.

I am simply saying having few open PvP zones without corruption penalties is also a good idea, just like it will be on the sea. If you don't want to be a part of that, don't go to those zones. It's not that complicated. Going to the zone = opting in.

This has been done successfully in so many other games, ArcheAge being one of them.

Your point seems to be that you want to encourage PvP and have added risk. That's fine in itself, but Corruption isn't there to stop that. That's not what it does. Corruption is to discourage random attacks but to still allow it if the situation calls for it.

Your idea of an area where anybody can be attacked at any time still exists whether or not it has the Lawless tag. If it's Lawless, you can attack anybody. If it's not Lawless, you can still attack anybody. The only thing that the Lawless area does is to encourage Non-Consensual PvP, rather than encourage Consensual PvP. It puts the risk entirely on the attacked player, rather than on both.

SmileGurney

Noaani wrote: »

ThevoicestHeVoIcEs wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

ThevoicestHeVoIcEs wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

ThevoicestHeVoIcEs wrote: »

Yes, the lawless zones should be permanent and not just limited to seas.

I would push it further and make them attractive for rare mob / resource farming, but also introduce environmental hazards like, magical anomalies, poison/corruption fog, aggressive mobs.

All could be tied with The Ancients lore, make lawless zones "no mans land" corrupted and destroyed by some ancient battles. Where excessive magic and corruption mangled the world beyond repair, so you cannot stay there for long without dying.

This is the fastest way to make the rest of the game irrelevant.

A matter of balance, no one said those rare mobs and resources have to be exclusive to the lawless zones. The same grade of resources could be added to group pve content.

Then the lawless zones are pointless.

Nope, people by their nature have preferred activities, you like ir or not.

The level of balance you are talking about here has literally never been achieved in an MMORPG.

Sure, it may be theoretically possible, but in reality it's just nor going to happen. One area will become full, the other will be dead.

Unlikely, some people are going arrive to conclusion that they rather have lower drops, but steady source of resources, instead of getting constantly jumped and paying the price of higher risk.

mainedutch

Noaani wrote: »

mainedutch wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

mainedutch wrote: »

I think people want more area to fight than on the back of ships.

If it is anything like Archeage PvP at sea, the fighting will take place on the ships, in the water, under water and in the air, all at the same time.

And also keep in mind, naval PvP is more ship vs ship, rather than player vs player - at least to start. If you are at the point where you are fighting on the deck of your ship, things probably kicked off 15 minutes ago.

I'm very well aware of how the naval combat will work in game. I was a long time ArcheAge player!

What I'm saying here is the plan is to turn lawless zones into naval zones, and I'm saying we should also have land-based lawless zones for people to PvP as well. Not just open waters. (:

Hope that makes sense.

And what we are saying is that it wouldn't serve any purpose in this game.

It works with the ocean (debatably) because it is it's own content sphere, potentially even with it's own classes and it's own progression.

On land though, all of the games PvP systems work towards the singular goal of large scale friction - which stating large scale friction is Ashes core mechanic is probably the best description of this game that I can think of.

Corruption exists to deter small scale PvP. Node wars, guild wars and sieges are designed to kind of be an outlet for that small scale PvP that is being deterred - the intention is that these three spheres (and probably caravans) is where the meaningful PvP in the game will happen.

Adding in an area that is permanantly PvP flagged would not add to this at all, and in fact would detract from it. It would be a detriment to the game as a whole, even if some people would enjoy it existing (similar to LFG in WoW, there is no doubt it was wildly popular, no doubt many people liked it, and also no doubt that it ruined the game for years).

The notion of a PvP area like this doesn't really work in a game where technically the whole world is flagged for PvP. It is the sort of thing you have in a game where parts of the world are PvP, and parts of it are not PvP.

Basically, it is a good fit for a different game.

Nah I disagree with this completely.

They were in ArcheAge and were some of the most fun areas to wander into. They don't detract anything. If you don't want to go there, don't go there. You can't say optional content "detracts" from something when it's optional.

Plus, there will be 80 zones upon release, all with caravans, sieges, GvG, and more. I don't think 3 or 4 lawless zones (plus the naval zone) are going to remove from that. Anyway, not every single piece of land in the game is going to have a node/progression system on it. The naval zone is one of those.

And your argument of "an open PvP area doesn't make sense for a game where everywhere is PvP" also doesn't make sense considering this is how naval content works in the first place. Also, what classes/progression? I hope you're not talking about archetypes...

It sounds like you don't even want naval zones to be lawless, which makes me disagree more.

daveywavey wrote: »

mainedutch wrote: »

I think you're missing my point entirely.

I agree with corruption 100% to deter griefing, and I know you can technically fight anywhere. That's not the point of this post.

I am simply saying having few open PvP zones without corruption penalties is also a good idea, just like it will be on the sea. If you don't want to be a part of that, don't go to those zones. It's not that complicated. Going to the zone = opting in.

This has been done successfully in so many other games, ArcheAge being one of them.

Your point seems to be that you want to encourage PvP and have added risk. That's fine in itself, but Corruption isn't there to stop that. That's not what it does. Corruption is to discourage random attacks but to still allow it if the situation calls for it.

Your idea of an area where anybody can be attacked at any time still exists whether or not it has the Lawless tag. If it's Lawless, you can attack anybody. If it's not Lawless, you can still attack anybody. The only thing that the Lawless area does is to encourage Non-Consensual PvP, rather than encourage Consensual PvP. It puts the risk entirely on the attacked player, rather than on both.

You're running circles in this debate and severely overcomplicating the main topic of the post.

Pyrolol

Guess il have to wait for the Arena for my PvP fix

mainedutch

Pyrolol wrote: »

Guess il have to wait for the Arena for my PvP fix

There is no plan for instanced PvP/arenas as far as I know. The main 4 PvP aspects of this game are sieges, caravans, guild wars, and naval combat via https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP.

Also, it turns out that Steven is against the idea of open PvP areas that aren't naval-based. Just found this in the PvP section, which I didn't think about checking while on the debate of leaving lawless zones in-game:

The only thing though is I am not suggesting "high-stakes" loot or drops. I just think they should be open combat areas without corruption. Guess we'll just have to leave this suggestion at that then.

Noaani

mainedutch wrote: »

Nah I disagree with this completely.

They were in ArcheAge and were some of the most fun areas to wander into.

Yeah, but Archeage didn't have that same goal as Ashes. The goal in Archeage wasn't to form friction to see people raid nodes or siege castles, the goal was to cause friction for events that happened in those zones.

Also, Archeage had zones that were PvP free - which you'll note was one of the things I said a game having these kinds of areas needs.

Plus, there will be 80 zones upon release

Nodes are not zones.

Anyway, not every single piece of land in the game is going to have a node/progression system on it. The naval zone is one of those.

Every piece of land other than the starting areas is currently planned to be subject to the node system.

Unsurprisingly, naval content doesn't take place on land.

Also, what classes/progression? I hope you're not talking about archetypes...

The Mariner class and it's progression path.

It sounds like you don't even want naval zones to be lawless, which makes me disagree more.

I'm somewhat unconcerned with that, in fact. Again, naval content isn't going to happen on land.

However, it looks to me like you don't understand this game half as well as you think you do, and when presented with someone that knows a little bit more about what has been given to us that disagrees with your idea being a good fit for the game, you aren't equipped with enough information on this game to understand that point.

Noaani

mainedutch wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

Guess il have to wait for the Arena for my PvP fix

There is no plan for instanced PvP/arenas as far as I know. The main 4 PvP aspects of this game are sieges, caravans, guild wars, and naval combat via https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP.

I'm curious how Intrepids plans for arenas will affect your opinion here.

It's generally a good idea to learn about a thing before debating said thing with people that know it quite well.

Gizban

mainedutch wrote: »

Alright, we all know that PvP is a highly contentious subject right now.

Many people are saying making PvP toggleable. Many say make PvE servers. Many say remove corruption.

All of those ideas are bad. Now, I'm not saying my idea is the answer, but I'm offering appeasement. I also want to make it abundantly clear we're nowhere near when features and systems are being refined. We're not even a month into preliminary stability testing. We're only making sure the game plays normally and stays online.

I heavily believe that this game needs to remain true to its form: PvP anywhere, anytime---but at a cost. You need repercussions for killing someone in normal zones. But corruption is a bit heavy-handed (we also know it's temporarily over tuned). If someone takes my corpse loot, I can't fight them for my loot back because I get penalized with corruption even though they were the thief. That's a small example, but not this post's point...

The point of this post is that lawless zones need to be a core part of the world, and not just on the seas.

As of now, lawless zones are only intended to remain in the Alpha and not the actual game upon release. From the AoC Wiki: "Lawless zones are open-world areas where the corruption system is disabled. These are intended to be an Alpha-2-only feature to help test what will become open-sea content."

There should always be the threat of PvP in the normal zones, and it should come with corruption (agreeable). That adds interest and risk to the gameplay. It also makes gankers think twice before jumping on you.

But there needs to be lawless zones with attractions to bring people into the zones so those PvP maniacs can get their fill. This will offer more balance to the gameplay, giving a place for PvPers to go knowing they will always get sum' and even deter them from becoming griefers because it's their only option.

I think there are plenty of PvP events planned already, but a lot of PvPers aren't satisfied with it. I hope this helps.

...

Friendly note: don't get angry about features and systems until well into Phase 3 of Alpha. That's when they're going to start fleshing these things out. If it's still bad at the end of Phase 3, then you can be mad. Also, don't tell me this game was marketed as a "PvP game." It's always been PvX, and corruption was always on the docket.

If you don't like that lawless zones are going away, maybe this game isn't for you?

mainedutch

Noaani wrote: »

mainedutch wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

Guess il have to wait for the Arena for my PvP fix

There is no plan for instanced PvP/arenas as far as I know. The main 4 PvP aspects of this game are sieges, caravans, guild wars, and naval combat via https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP.

I'm curious how Intrepids plans for arenas will affect your opinion here.

It's generally a good idea to learn about a thing before debating said thing with people that know it quite well.

Glancing past "as far as I know"...

I'm not debating with you, I'm offering options for the community.

Stop trying to slam-dunk this conversation with your gross superiority complex about all the time you've spent online. I'm not gonna entertain whatever fedora-welding remark is sure to follow this comment.

pyreal wrote: »

If you don't like that lawless zones are going away, maybe this game isn't for you?

And you didn't even read the post if this is your take.

Quote: "I think there are plenty of PvP events planned already, but a lot of PvPers aren't satisfied with it. I hope this helps."

Aszkalon

mainedutch wrote: »

Lawless zones need to be a permanent feature

Can this not already be realized with the War-Feature ? Guilds or Nodes declaring War on each other. This will be a permanent thing in the released Game.

Then - the whole World is perma-flagged for Everyone involved. >;-]

mainedutch

Aszkalon wrote: »

mainedutch wrote: »

Lawless zones need to be a permanent feature

Can this not already be realized with the War-Feature ? Guilds or Nodes declaring War on each other. This will be a permanent thing in the released Game.

Then - the whole World is perma-flagged for Everyone involved. >;-]

I'm confident there will be plenty of PvP via GvG and nodes.

Noaani

mainedutch wrote: »

Glancing past "as far as I know"...

Why glance past it?

As far as you know, Intrepid didn't have plans for an instanced arena.

I showed you that they do indeed have those plans, and stated I was curious to see how this new piece of understanding of this game altered your opinions on things.

If learning a new, key piece of relevant information on the game doesn't alter your opinion on this matter, it calls in to question how you formed that opinion in the first place.

I'm not debating with you, I'm offering opinions for the community.

And I am a part of that community, and I am poking and prodding at those opinions to see if others should or should not agree with them.

Since said opinions aren't holding up very well, and also since your underlying understanding of the game as we currently understand it seems to be lacking, I'm demonstrating to others that they should be wary before agreeing with your opinion here.

Stop trying to slam dunk this conversation with your gross superiority complex about all the time you've spent on the Wiki.

I don't spend much time on the wiki - almost none, in fact. My understanding of the game is built from discussions here.

Also, I'm not sure why you are trying to 'neg' someone that has a better understanding on a topic than yourself. Since when has knowledge been a bad thing?

As to "slam dunk", when the hoop is still on the floor (or without the metaphor, when the idea in questions is a non-starter in its entierity), I wouldn't call it a slam dunk.

murdergroupie

mainedutch wrote: »

The point of this post is that lawless zones need to be a core part of the world, and not just on the seas.
(...edit...)
But there needs to be lawless zones with attractions to bring people into the zones so those PvP maniacs can get their fill. This will offer more balance to the gameplay, giving a place for PvPers to go knowing they will always get sum' and even deter them from becoming griefers because it's their only option.

I think there are plenty of PvP events planned already, but a lot of PvPers aren't satisfied with it. I hope this helps.
.

I saw "lawless zones" and immediately thought, "yes, you've just checked one of my top interest boxes".
That alone will forgive multiple grievances with my kit, or the kit of other archetypes.

The zeroes of EVE come to MMO - I'm all in!

xoxo

Veeshan

I still think they should make draakathbohr classes as open seas so lawlawss and have 2 potential nodes able to be built on it on the east and west coast. reason for it that it so far out of the way it wont realy effect people who are not interested in lawless zones and then allows for option for those players who are on the server along with allowing for a spot for people to base pirating activities out of.
It will also funned the more bloodthirsty minded players away from civilisation to a degree too which will reduce mindless/pointless ganking of people who might not care for it from other area of the map so it kinda win for everyone.

Although steven might have bigger plans for the area who knows only time will tell

Pyrolol

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Arenas

Kallysha

when i heard about lawless zones for the first time i immediately thought it would actually be a permanent system operating but on a rotation, not static zones, what i mean by this is i thought for a period of time there would exist a lawless zone for like a week, then would change to another area of the map and keep going like this not a permanent lawless zone forever but instead keep it changing over time on a constant (over one week it would be an area, next week another and so on)

Ludullu

Kallysha wrote: »

when i heard about lawless zones for the first time i immediately thought it would actually be a permanent system operating but on a rotation, not static zones, what i mean by this is i thought for a period of time there would exist a lawless zone for like a week, then would change to another area of the map and keep going like this not a permanent lawless zone forever but instead keep it changing over time on a constant (over one week it would be an area, next week another and so on)

This (or anything close to this) was never stated anywhere. Open seas were always presented as a constant lawless zone. That's it.

So you simply completely misunderstood the presentation.

Kallysha

Ludullu wrote: »

Kallysha wrote: »

when i heard about lawless zones for the first time i immediately thought ...

i assume you went pass that and didnt actually read that...

Settite

Kallysha wrote: »

when i heard about lawless zones for the first time i immediately thought it would actually be a permanent system operating but on a rotation, not static zones, what i mean by this is i thought for a period of time there would exist a lawless zone for like a week, then would change to another area of the map and keep going like this not a permanent lawless zone forever but instead keep it changing over time on a constant (over one week it would be an area, next week another and so on)

I personally like the idea of a lawless zone that switches up periodically. It could even be every few hours or whatever works. This way it's not causing too much harm to those who don't want it but those who do have the option of open world pvp without having to work about flags, queing up in an arena, needing to find someone in a caravan, etc.

Ludullu

Kallysha wrote: »

i assume you went pass that and didnt actually read that...

Yes, that first time was when Steven explained what Open Seas were. And he didn't mention any timedness of that feature. And if you heard it from some other time/place - then you were either mislead or misunderstood it.

Or, of course, you simply assumed something that wasn't the case. We've all fallen prey to such actions, which then bit us all in the ass because all those assumption barely ever work in the context of Steven's preferred design

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