Open letter to Mr. Sharif for the problems of casual players

Dear Mr. Sharif

First of all: I am a casual player. A gatherer, farmer and builder.

My guild and I are actually looking forward to building something in a game like AoC, but why?

We are at a massive disadvantage compared to power leveling players and PvP guilds.

It only takes about 70 hours of play to get to level 25 within a group.

(See the "Ultimate Level Guide" on youtube)

And as gatherers and crafters – what can we achieve in 70 hours?

Maybe 2 professions at Level 2 and level 10 in Fighting.

Risk against rewards – not for us.

The more time we invest in building a node, the higher the risk that a 50-man PvP guild at a high level will tear everything down and destroy hundreds of hours of game time.

The more successful we are as a building guild, the bigger the target on our backs.

AoC forces us to either join a very large guild or work as slaves in (or for) a PvP guild. Diplomacy alone will not save us.

We haven't even started playing and we're already screwed.

Rewards - for PvE players? Nope - only risk.

For all power leveling and PvP players:

Normally, players like my friends and I are the backbone of all MMO games, we build, we make high-quality weapons and armor, etc... But in AoC we are just victims or slaves. This cannot work in its current form, as we are deprived of any motivation to build something as a smaller guild. I ask for your understanding that even smaller guilds and casual players in AoC should not only be defenseless targets.

Conclusion:
As a casual player, gatherer and crafter, I have no rewards to expect, only risk.

My node, my freehold and my caravans are only targets for PvP players.

I would like to ask you to rethink some game mechanics.

And no - i don't have a good solution. And yes - i think that most of us will leave this game if our node and freeholds are destoyed and we had played so many time for nothing.

Regards
Sentani

(English is not my native language sorry for the Google translation)

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Comments

Githal

I see few problems with what you doing.
* focusing only on gathering/building is not the intended way to play the game (not that you cant), The intended way is to do everything the game provides - PVE/PVP/Gathering and ect.
* Why is your guild consisted of gatherers and crafters only? When you watch some streamers talking about their guilds they saying that X amount of players in the guild will be gatherers, Y will be crafters/ PVPers that will defend them and will help them with caravan runs / PVEers that kill bosses for rare materials from bosses needed by the crafters and so on.. And yes with small guild this is not that realistic approach, but thats why you have the alliance system. Ally with 1 guild of pvpers, You give them mats and craft items, they help you protect the node, and defend your caravans.

Think of it as a country. You have the average citizen that develops the economy, And they pay taxes for protection, health care, politics and ect.

Its_Me

Sentani wrote: »

Dear Mr. Sharif

First of all: I am a casual player. A gatherer, farmer and builder.

My guild and I are actually looking forward to building something in a game like AoC, but why?

We are at a massive disadvantage compared to power leveling players and PvP guilds.

It only takes about 70 hours of play to get to level 25 within a group.

(See the "Ultimate Level Guide" on youtube)

And as gatherers and crafters – what can we achieve in 70 hours?

Maybe 2 professions at Level 2 and level 10 in Fighting.

Risk against rewards – not for us.

The more time we invest in building a node, the higher the risk that a 50-man PvP guild at a high level will tear everything down and destroy hundreds of hours of game time.

The more successful we are as a building guild, the bigger the target on our backs.

AoC forces us to either join a very large guild or work as slaves in (or for) a PvP guild. Diplomacy alone will not save us.

We haven't even started playing and we're already screwed.

Rewards - for PvE players? Nope - only risk.

For all power leveling and PvP players:

Normally, players like my friends and I are the backbone of all MMO games, we build, we make high-quality weapons and armor, etc... But in AoC we are just victims or slaves. This cannot work in its current form, as we are deprived of any motivation to build something as a smaller guild. I ask for your understanding that even smaller guilds and casual players in AoC should not only be defenseless targets.

Conclusion:
As a casual player, gatherer and crafter, I have no rewards to expect, only risk.

My node, my freehold and my caravans are only targets for PvP players.

I would like to ask you to rethink some game mechanics.

And no - i don't have a good solution. And yes - i think that most of us will leave this game if our node and freeholds are destoyed and we had played so many time for nothing.

Regards
Sentani

(English is not my native language sorry for the Google translation)

I am a bit confused.

It sounds like you have a guild and want to focus on crafting instead of leveling and are complaining about not getting the levels others are getting that are focused more on leveling?

Should all those focused on leveling complain about you for being ahead of them in crafting and gear and weapons?

How about working on both as this seems to be more about wanting to have your cake and eating it too.

For the record, I kept up progression by leveling in small groups, sometimes as small as 3. It does not take a huge guild to level at a fairly quick rate and it sounds like you have a guild and others to play with to do this. If people elect to focus on crafting and gathering rather than leveling, that is a choice people are intentionally making.

LordManmode

Sentani wrote: »

Dear Mr. Sharif

First of all: I am a casual player. A gatherer, farmer and builder.

My guild and I are actually looking forward to building something in a game like AoC, but why?

We are at a massive disadvantage compared to power leveling players and PvP guilds.

It only takes about 70 hours of play to get to level 25 within a group.

(See the "Ultimate Level Guide" on youtube)

And as gatherers and crafters – what can we achieve in 70 hours?

Maybe 2 professions at Level 2 and level 10 in Fighting.

Risk against rewards – not for us.

The more time we invest in building a node, the higher the risk that a 50-man PvP guild at a high level will tear everything down and destroy hundreds of hours of game time.

The more successful we are as a building guild, the bigger the target on our backs.

AoC forces us to either join a very large guild or work as slaves in (or for) a PvP guild. Diplomacy alone will not save us.

We haven't even started playing and we're already screwed.

Rewards - for PvE players? Nope - only risk.

For all power leveling and PvP players:

Normally, players like my friends and I are the backbone of all MMO games, we build, we make high-quality weapons and armor, etc... But in AoC we are just victims or slaves. This cannot work in its current form, as we are deprived of any motivation to build something as a smaller guild. I ask for your understanding that even smaller guilds and casual players in AoC should not only be defenseless targets.

Conclusion:
As a casual player, gatherer and crafter, I have no rewards to expect, only risk.

My node, my freehold and my caravans are only targets for PvP players.

I would like to ask you to rethink some game mechanics.

And no - i don't have a good solution. And yes - i think that most of us will leave this game if our node and freeholds are destoyed and we had played so many time for nothing.

Regards
Sentani

(English is not my native language sorry for the Google translation)

As a Fellow casual player, I accept fully that I will never even be remotely close to on parr with the people who can play 8 hours a day. I take my time, I explore, I level in the time I can, and even after all these weekends I did not even reach level 20. and that is OK. I should make it on phase 2. If you want to hang with the best, you kinda gotta play on their level too.

Only thing I hope is that they will bring back some of the power spike on crafting to make crafters feel appreciated. That is golden.

Every MMORPG in the world tend to be split between the super hardcore and the casual where casual play the game their way and the hardcore play it theirs. Why do we as casual players need to compete with the hardcore?

Dezemi

Sentani wrote: »

@ Noaani

Is that all you can think of?

The game is not suitable for players like me?

Join a large guild - we don't want small guilds?

At the moment, only the law of the strongest applies in AoC.

As a high-level PvP guild, you can do anything in this game.

As a smaller casual guild, you can't, quite the opposite. You are a victim or a slave because you can lose everything you have built up.

I want to point that out with my statement.

But you are right

Now I play hardcore with my small guild, look for an alliance with like-minded people and use weaker guilds and nodes as loot boxes.

If that's what you want, then that's how it is.

I understand the concern you have, yet I believe you are miscalculating the risk of your enemies. Remember that as a casual/smaller guild, the risk of you getting a target on your back from anything other than opportunists is relatively small. Especially after launch when the map is huge.

The Apex guilds, filled with those hardcore people, will be much more likely to be bumping heads with each other. Both to reap the rewards from loot, but primarily to keep each other in check.

At the beginning of my journey in AoC, I too was very scared of being in a small community in a large guild's world - but as time has gone by, I realized I think there is significant less risk to smaller communities...

* Smaller communities can much easier be sneaky as they transfer materials or other belongings long distances. Sure, large guild can run bigger caravans; but they will also be targeted much more frequently. Especially as they try to organize them.

* Freeholds in slightly smaller quantities seem very accessible to smaller guilds' pooling resources. Node politics are of course for bigger guild's/alliances, and here you'll have to choose carefully if you want to remain smaller and independent, or risk getting involved in higher stakes of warfare. As for nodes in themselves... Well, literally each and every singular player has the same risk/reward here, regardless of community.

All in all, right now I believe the game's vision works fine. Bigger and wealthier guilds = *potentially* more resources, but bigger target on your back. Smaller and independent guilds = steady income with less conflict.

nanfoodle

Dygz wrote: »

Ashes is not designed for Casual Challenge players.
Also, does not appear to be designed for Casual Time players. Especially since Steven does not even acknowledge Casual Time as a thing.

Keep in mind that Alpha 2/Phase 1 is primarily a stability test.
Professions may feel better by Alpha 2/Phase 3.

This is not entirely true. Steven has said this game will have content for casual players. It just will be harder to do then other games. Things were mentioned about some classes will solo better because of the role and tool kit they have. Rangers are awesome ay soloing. I'm sure Summoners will as well. World events will be great place for casual players, blending into the background. It just requires more thought.

jaketcooper

Sentani wrote: »

Dear Mr. Sharif

First of all: I am a casual player. A gatherer, farmer and builder.

My guild and I are actually looking forward to building something in a game like AoC, but why?

We are at a massive disadvantage compared to power leveling players and PvP guilds.

It only takes about 70 hours of play to get to level 25 within a group.

(See the "Ultimate Level Guide" on youtube)

And as gatherers and crafters – what can we achieve in 70 hours?

Maybe 2 professions at Level 2 and level 10 in Fighting.

Risk against rewards – not for us.

The more time we invest in building a node, the higher the risk that a 50-man PvP guild at a high level will tear everything down and destroy hundreds of hours of game time.

The more successful we are as a building guild, the bigger the target on our backs.

AoC forces us to either join a very large guild or work as slaves in (or for) a PvP guild. Diplomacy alone will not save us.

We haven't even started playing and we're already screwed.

Rewards - for PvE players? Nope - only risk.

For all power leveling and PvP players:

Normally, players like my friends and I are the backbone of all MMO games, we build, we make high-quality weapons and armor, etc... But in AoC we are just victims or slaves. This cannot work in its current form, as we are deprived of any motivation to build something as a smaller guild. I ask for your understanding that even smaller guilds and casual players in AoC should not only be defenseless targets.

Conclusion:
As a casual player, gatherer and crafter, I have no rewards to expect, only risk.

My node, my freehold and my caravans are only targets for PvP players.

I would like to ask you to rethink some game mechanics.

And no - i don't have a good solution. And yes - i think that most of us will leave this game if our node and freeholds are destoyed and we had played so many time for nothing.

Regards
Sentani

(English is not my native language sorry for the Google translation)

I haven't played yet, but I do have an idea:
If you guys are focused on PvE, can't you balance that by teaming up/allying with a group focused on PvP?

Theoretically, this would allow both of your groups to improve at a FASTER rate than the people trying to do everything at once.

Doing PvE, there must be some sort of PvE-only assets/resources that you will acquire. Similarly, doing PvP likely has PvP-only resources-- in your case you'd be looking for combat power.

Offer to share your PvE resources in exchange for protection.

This is the same as real life. If you have something of value, someone else would benefit from having it. If there are no rules, they may try to take it.

Can you defend your assets by yourself? If not, you should hire someone who can. You can either lose a little profit and gain protection, or keep the whole profit but risk losing it all.

In an MMORPG this should be obvious, but maybe I'm missing a mechanic. Again, I have yet to play the game.

Lodrig

I don't get it, the OP describes himself as Casual, but then says he has a 'higher time investment' then the Hardcore PvPers he fears?

It sounds like the definition of casual is being twisted here to mean 'not interested in PvP' rather then 'low and inconsistent playtime per week'. It is perfectly possible to be a Hardcore Crafter or Hardcore PvE player.

And their ARE already hardcore artisan guilds who do their artisan grind already. They are spreadsheeting and making tables and assigning people to chop 10k wood to feed to the next man on the chain, treating crafting with the same ruthlessness that PvP players treat combat with.

Vhaeyne

@Lodrig

The markets are hardcore PvP.

Arya_Yeshe

You can't build stuff in AoC and run an industry, you can craft items and that's all. Eventually your node will be destroyed and you will lose your stuff

cosmichedgehog

I'm one of those casual people. Casual in two ways, because 1.) just don't have that much time to spend and 2.) I dislike PvP and I suck at it. That said I understand, and accept, that I am going to have to do things that I don't really like that much while I do things that I like. I know that it's don't going to be 100% my way. To get that, I'd have to make my own game - and that just isn't happening in this lifetime.

That said, I think Intrepid has stated several time and tried to make it clear that this game will not be for everyone. I'm still not 100% sure it's going to be for me, but I'm going to give it a try. I'm not saying that people shouldn't express their concerns. They should, especially now while the game is still in development.

Also, this is an Alpha. I'm not in the Alpha - for now - but I understand what they are about. They are basically about testing and pushing things to see if, when, and how they break. This also means that not every system will be up and functional. The version of game that is being "played" is not the version of the game that will be released. Everything has to be tested and feedback has to be given and evaluated. Yes, you can make educated guesses as to what things will be like when the game is released and live, but until then we really don't know how things are going to actually be when things go live. It seems that their are people, and I'm not saying the OP is one of them, that thinks Alpha Test = early entry to a finished game.

I still have my concerns, I am content to voice them and wait. I think I will probably be able to scratch out a niche for myself - on the right server with the right guild. So, the community around me - and the people I choose to have around me - will be important. Intrepid has been very upfront that community and group interact are part of the game, and player that AOC is not aimed at solo player play style. You aren't going to be able to play in a private bubble. So has cool as the game looks like it will be, you really need to think about that before you invest too much of your time in it.

Vhaeyne

Ashes is a game that truly embodies the 'X' in PvX.

I believe Ashes will be most enjoyable if you choose to work with its design rather than against it.

Embrace the 'X.'

Dygz

"I Am The X..."

Dygz

nanfoodle wrote: »

This is not entirely true. Steven has said this game will have content for casual players. It just will be harder to do then other games. Things were mentioned about some classes will solo better because of the role and tool kit they have. Rangers are awesome ay soloing. I'm sure Summoners will as well. World events will be great place for casual players, blending into the background. It just requires more thought.

Steven also said that Ashes of Creation will release before 2020.
And then, after Jeffrey Bard left and after 2021, aspects of the game design changed significantly.

I don't think that I would equate soloing with Casual.
You mention Ranger and Summoner, but the OP is talking about Gathering and Crafting.

kadimir

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Ashes is a game that truly embodies the 'X' in PvX.

Because anyone you are dating at launch will become your X

Xeeg

Sentani wrote: »

It only takes about 70 hours of play to get to level 25 within a group.

(See the "Ultimate Level Guide" on youtube)

And as gatherers and crafters – what can we achieve in 70 hours?

Maybe 2 professions at Level 2 and level 10 in Fighting.

Risk against rewards – not for us.

The more time we invest in building a node, the higher the risk that a 50-man PvP guild at a high level will tear everything down and destroy hundreds of hours of game time.

Many other commenters missed this point about time spent vs value received. I think the idea "was" that the 70 hour gatherer/crafter at level 10 could craft a bow that could make them as powerful as the pure level 25 character or something. Which is why all the legendaries were crazy AF. The player base didnt really know that until legendaries started to get crafted. With the recent nerfs I don't know if that's still the case.

As the node systems develop I think there may be a different story than what you are thinking here. Alot of the node power will come from gatherers. When it comes to node sieges and whatnot, or the destruction of a node, it was said to take as many resources to destroy the node as it took to create it. So, not just a PVP fight but also a resource fight.

It may take them some time to get that balance right, but I think the intent is that gatherer mains who will be leveling slower than others (because of time spent), will still be greatly contributing to the overall power of their node and ability to withstand destruction.

Its_Me

Sentani wrote: »

AoC forces us to either join a very large guild or work as slaves in (or for) a PvP guild. Diplomacy alone will not save us.

This statement confuses me a bit as this IS a PVX game so if you remove the PVE mindset of having a PVE only guild and balance your guild with a makeup of builders and PVPr's (does not have to be a huge guild), you would be playing a PVX game as a PVX guild with a PVX mindset.

The suggestion that you would be slaves to PVPr's by adding them to your guild demonstrates a very clear bias as you would be building and gathering anyway in your PVE guild so why not add players that focus on PVP and work as a group?

You would not be 'slaves' by doing this, you would be supporting players in your guild that will then support you by having your back and protecting your buildings while you do what you like doing in games?

You describe a negative parasitic atmosphere by mixing PVE and PVP players and I see it as a commensal or symbiotic relationship.

Gizban

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

You can't build stuff in AoC and run an industry, you can craft items and that's all. Eventually your node will be destroyed and you will lose your stuff

It'll be important for these players to support their node.

The risk of loss and necessity of 'belonging' to a node will foster community.

Noaani

Its_Me wrote: »

Sentani wrote: »

AoC forces us to either join a very large guild or work as slaves in (or for) a PvP guild. Diplomacy alone will not save us.

This statement confuses me a bit as this IS a PVX game

Why does it confuse you?

Once leveled to the cap, Ashes can be played as a PvP game. You can profit from PvP and use that profit to purchase gear. No one can force PvE on to you - you can even have an entire guild or alliance of players that are all playing this way.

You can not do this with PvE. Others can always force you in to Pvap - whether that is via open world PvP, wars sieges or caravans. Once you have leveled, PvE becomes totally optional.

Since 95% of MMORPG play time is at the level cap, that means that PvE matters for 10% of the game (allowing for a longer leveling process than most). For the remaining 90%, you can play as PvE+PvP (often referred to as PvX), or as PvP. You can not play that remaining 90% of the game as PvE.

People that make the argument of Ashes being a PvX game and so you need a PvX mindset are simply uninformed.

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