Request: Can We Get An Updated Vassalization Sim?

It'd be pretty awesome to get a sim like the one from 2021 but updated utilizing the more recent Vassalization flow chart showing how many vassals can be owned by each node stage, and with the correct number of nodes in the world.

Also noticed in the old sim video that vassalization seemed to occur before stage 3, and it was hard to tell between what were stage lockouts or vassalizations, and there is 3+ nodes being vassalized in several instances even under stage 3 nodes as opposed to the more recent statement of a stage 3 node only being able to vassalize a single level 0-2 node.

Whether its a new Sim video or just an explanation for clarity here or in a near future livestream (maybe before phase 2 since nodes are a big focus?), it'd be much appreciated

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Vhaeyne

I agree it would be cool to see a new visualization.

I had to track down the old one to remind myself:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/images/c/c7/NodeSimulation.mp4#t=0,100

It is very interesting to compare that map to what is current.

Lodrig

I say we need a whole new vassalization SYSTEM. The current design of using just node XP and zero player agency before or after vassalization is terrible. My proposal for a new system.

Flip the vassal/node level logic. GETTING vassals is what LETS a node rise in tier, and maintaining vassals is nessary to retain a nodes tier. First vassal open tier 3, vassal counts include your vassals vassals, so your total 'nodes under you' is what your trying to raise.

Vassalize the tier 1 and 2 nodes by delivering crates/cargo to them from the another node in a sudo-caravan/econ domination system. Nodes make these vassalization crates from surplus XP so nodes can only vassalize others if they are actively generating XP and delivering to a target. Vassals consume the same crates with their XP and a constant stream is required to maintain vassals.

For nodes of tier 3 and up vassalization is by either the sword or the pen. A vassalization war can can be declared by one node on another of EQUAL or lowe level, and if the defender loses they become a vassal, but can try to become independent again with another war. If on the other hand a node signs up willingly as a vassal it can both negotiate it's taxes/privlages with the patron node and has much greater restrictions on the ability to rebel.

Laetitian

Lodrig wrote: »

Vassalize the tier 1 and 2 nodes by delivering crates/cargo to them from the another node in a sudo-caravan/econ domination system. Nodes make these vassalization crates from surplus XP so nodes can only vassalize others if they are actively generating XP and delivering to a target.
(...)
For nodes of tier 3 and up vassalization is by either the sword or the pen. A vassalization war can can be declared by one node on another of EQUAL or lowe level, and if the defender loses they become a vassal, but can try to become independent again with another war. If on the other hand a node signs up willingly as a vassal it can both negotiate it's taxes/privlages with the patron node and has much greater restrictions on the ability to rebel.

*"pseudo"

Yeah honestly, best suggestion I've seen from you so far. Kinda obvious, too, no idea why the system was ever designed any other way. You've even made room for all the preference Steven has for encouraging vassalship as a positive relationship without restricting player agency.

I mean...I guess I do know why it wasn't designed this way. It's because they wanted node XP to be the deciding factor in which nodes grow, not sieges. So it's more of a natural game progression thing, instead of an active player conflict. PVP was meant to be reserved to reshape the map after frustration has grown among rival nodes (not vassal nodes, as we are all so painfully aware), but conflict was never meant to be required in order for the more active node to keep growing and swallowing its surroundings through sheer player activity, XP growth, and perhaps story arc progression.

However, you could still preserve that by just forcing the decision when the node hits the required XP. That's when the mandatory vassalisation gets triggered, but the vassalised node gets the choice between negotiating submission conditions, or resisting through combat, either by getting sieged or perhaps "just" a vassalisation war.
If you want to be really proactive about preserving node XP as the driving factor of growth, you could do something to accelerate node growth in that area of the map, if the node threatened to be vassalised wins its defence. You could distribute some of the losing node's XP to its surrounding nodes so they can accelerate their growth and take over the growth progression, if they're better fit to control vassals. Eventually players would move into the accelerated node and its XP gain would outpace the original XP leader that lost its attempt at becoming a regent.

I also don't think it would necessarily take a substantial overhaul to adapt the system this way. The concept of vassalship itself largely stays the same, except for some tweaks depending on whether it's a conquered or allied vassal. Plus the mechanisms for doing that. And adjusting node level restrictions to be dependent on acquired vassals and their level.

That said, you kinda hijacked this innocent little request thread.

Lodrig

Yea I should have mentioned, node XP would remain a prerequisite for expansion and vassalization under my proposed system as well. It just acts as a gate to aquire vassals rather then simply automatically happening at that point.

Nodes need to hit 'full' XP in order to declare a war of vassalization or to sign up a vassal peacefully, though perhapse the war can cause a high XP drain on the attacker while it is going on. And the econ-crate pushing game works off XP too, the crates get generated out of 'over-flow' node XP after your maxed.

So XP remains a really significant factor and acts to make sure only nodes that are legitimatly rising in activity are in able to make the attempts at vassalization, so it's not JUST a free-for all of wars or diplomacy. I think that was part of Steven's original intent, to assure that vassalization patterns followed player activity patterns, high population high activity nodes get to be regents and the this is determined by the collective player base voting with it's feet and grind-time.

Laetitian

It just acts as a gate to aquire vassals rather then simply automatically happening at that point.
But the automatic part is going to be important to Steven. That's why he likes the current system. Because the game world gets shaped by players interacting with the map without requiring active political choices. You're supposed to shape the map by just playing the game. That's supposed to be the curated more-than-just-a-sandbox side of the game.
That's why I stressed the point about it triggering automatically.

So are you going to make this a thread?

Lodrig

That's actually contracry to his own stated doctrine that PvE 'builds' the world while PvP 'changes' it. I (and practically everyone else) considers a node being vassalized a 'change' of profound importance because it basically blocks your node from leveling up.

And yes I can make a thread if you wish.

Noaani

Lodrig wrote: »

For nodes of tier 3 and up vassalization is by either the sword or the pen. A vassalization war can can be declared by one node on another of EQUAL or lowe level, and if the defender loses they become a vassal, but can try to become independent again with another war. If on the other hand a node signs up willingly as a vassal it can both negotiate it's taxes/privlages with the patron node and has much greater restrictions on the ability to rebel.

No.

This means PvP ability is the only thing that matters

Nodes should be able to be built on trade, or crafting, on diplomacy OR on fighting. Any system that reduces the ability of nodes to stand other than via PvP is an automatic no as far as I am concerned.

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