Build diversity

So I know the game is in an early state and things will change but I’d love to see each class have at least two if not three “skill” builds that are different from one another. Like a ranger that is a typical bow build, or you could go a trapper build, or a pet build depending on how you spend you skill points/ what stats you go for in gear. If not this I’d like to at least see the classes change depending on what weapons you use. Right now I have only played ranger but most of the skills are useless if you aren’t using a bow. How can you use barrage with a sword?

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nanfoodle

Level 25 you will get your secondary class to pick your class. You will be able to change your secondary class when the game goes live, in town. There will 8 options per starting class. This will leave allot of play styles that come from one starting class.

nanfoodle

P. S. You will also have augments from religion and other side exp paths you can take. That could end up being endless as the game progresses. Add one new starting class like say a Druid. That would make 9 new options for each starting class. Add bounty hunter path and you could have new augments from that. Add a thevies skill line and new augments would come from that as well.

nanfoodle

P. P. S. I think phase 3 will have the subclass for Cleric and Tank to test for all 8 starter classes.

ShaggyRyn

nanfoodle wrote: »

Level 25 you will get your secondary class to pick your class. You will be able to change your secondary class when the game goes live, in town. There will 8 options per starting class. This will leave allot of play styles that come from one starting class.

From my understanding the augments won’t change up the whole play style of a class. It will just turn for ranger your snipe into an elemental version or something to that effect. It will still be the ranger using the same skills. Now if the secondary classes really do change the feel of the class then this post is pointless lol. I just don’t like feeling like I have the same build as everyone else.

ShaggyRyn

nanfoodle wrote: »

Level 25 you will get your secondary class to pick your class. You will be able to change your secondary class when the game goes live, in town. There will 8 options per starting class. This will leave allot of play styles that come from one starting class.

I agree with everything you’re saying but I still feel like you should have a skill tree that you can get all the skill in. Also for you to have skills that use a different weapon. I haven’t tried it but what can a ranger use without a bow equipped. To me there is no point to have access to all the weapons if they don’t really change how you play at all other than skill combo finishers.

Vyllz

I love how Ashes of Creation is approaching build diversity. The combination of a primary and secondary archetype really opens up a lot of possibilities, 64 unique class combinations is no joke!

Just to clarify for anyone new: you choose your primary archetype when you create your character, and you unlock your secondary archetype at level 25. That’s when your full class is defined, like a Mage/Rogue becoming a Spellhunter, or a Fighter/Cleric turning into a Templar.

The fact that you can tailor your skills, augments, and even your playstyle based on your secondary choice makes me really hopeful for meaningful diversity. Can't wait to see all the creative builds people come up with!

lamina5432

I tend to agree Shaggyryn that we need build diversity in the base archetypes themselves though I think it's in the plan just the dev's are doing a lot of different things and balancing the skills we have already is a lot of work and time. i.e. the ttk problem they are currently working on and the changes the arc hypes have been getting.

Also the augments are according to the wiki on a 1-10 amount of change bases and each archetype is supposed to have 4 sub effects.

Going further as nanfoodle said we also have augments coming from race and religion. then there is the weapon skill tree's which i also think need some work to better integrate into the archetype skill's. Mainly i think it's important to point out your thoughts, but understand we're in an alpha and there's a lot to come

Apok

I agree with this and had one like it that didn't gain much traction

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/61595/more-options-for-skills-maybe#latest

However they can do it I think people should be able to tell themselves apart before having to change classes. And don't think the class change is a valid argument. If classes don't become diverse till mid-late to late game on a game that's going to be built around long progression is gonna be rough. I don't want to see clones of myself running around everywhere

ShaggyRyn

REHOC wrote: »

I love how Ashes of Creation is approaching build diversity. The combination of a primary and secondary archetype really opens up a lot of possibilities, 64 unique class combinations is no joke!

Just to clarify for anyone new: you choose your primary archetype when you create your character, and you unlock your secondary archetype at level 25. That’s when your full class is defined, like a Mage/Rogue becoming a Spellhunter, or a Fighter/Cleric turning into a Templar.

The fact that you can tailor your skills, augments, and even your playstyle based on your secondary choice makes me really hopeful for meaningful diversity. Can't wait to see all the creative builds people come up with!

I’m pretty well informed with the base plan but again if you can get every skill in a skill tree and you’re weapons don’t change anything but your combo finishers a mage/rogue will be the same as almost any other mage rogue. What I’d like to see is a skill tree that forks off or requires a certain amount of points into a skill before another skill unlocks. Say you want a melee mage. You would get a skill that added elements to your weapon attacks and maybe some passive that increase your attack speed then that would unlock were you could auto cast spells as you attack. This is a crude example and I know they kinda have that with the class mechanic but it’s where I’d like to see the skill tree go.

Vyllz

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

REHOC wrote: »

I love how Ashes of Creation is approaching build diversity. The combination of a primary and secondary archetype really opens up a lot of possibilities, 64 unique class combinations is no joke!

Just to clarify for anyone new: you choose your primary archetype when you create your character, and you unlock your secondary archetype at level 25. That’s when your full class is defined, like a Mage/Rogue becoming a Spellhunter, or a Fighter/Cleric turning into a Templar.

The fact that you can tailor your skills, augments, and even your playstyle based on your secondary choice makes me really hopeful for meaningful diversity. Can't wait to see all the creative builds people come up with!

I’m pretty well informed with the base plan but again if you can get every skill in a skill tree and you’re weapons don’t change anything but your combo finishers a mage/rogue will be the same as almost any other mage rogue. What I’d like to see is a skill tree that forks off or requires a certain amount of points into a skill before another skill unlocks. Say you want a melee mage. You would get a skill that added elements to your weapon attacks and maybe some passive that increase your attack speed then that would unlock were you could auto cast spells as you attack. This is a crude example and I know they kinda have that with the class mechanic but it’s where I’d like to see the skill tree go.

ShaggyRyn

I get what you’re saying, and I think a lot of us feel the same. The current design does give room for flexibility, but if everyone can grab the same skills in a linear way, then yeah, you risk every Mage/Rogue feeling too similar.

Forking skill trees or deeper unlock conditions would really help add identity to builds. Like you said, having to invest into one theme (melee, elemental, ranged, etc.) before unlocking deeper, synergistic abilities would not only improve build diversity, but also reward player commitment to a playstyle. That kind of progression just feels more meaningful.

Let’s hope Intrepid leans into that direction as the archetype augments and class mechanics evolve during Alpha Two.

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It’s just hard to imagine how the augments will work. It’s going to be so hard to have that many skills changing depending on your sub class. I honestly would rather see deeper investment into each classes unique build and then the augments/ sub class have an overall change like you get a few skills from that class or something like that. The augments sound amazing and I love the concept but I just hope it doesn’t end up feeling lackluster because it doesn’t change much.

Azherae

Have faith in their concept of augment design.

The radical change comes from the overall directional shift of the aggregate, not from aspects of each specific skill.

My teammate and I play two, almost entirely different Darkblighters in Throne and Liberty, and that was before the new Weapon Mastery system caused an even larger divergence. FF11 used to do this with 'just gear' for a while, and TL/Onigiri doubled down on this.

I maintain that the reason games don't do this is because players in general can't/don't handle the complexity, not that the complexity itself is hard to manage.

Also, REHOC, my very human friend, watch out for the formulaic/high frequency nature of your mirroring in the opening line of your posts.

GreatPhilisopher

with the way they are going at it with the TTK ,gear and stats there will be no build diversity . everyone will pick the biggest stat stick with the skills that gives the most damage otherwise you'll be cannon fodder

Azherae

GreatPhilisopher wrote: »

with the way they are going at it with the TTK ,gear and stats there will be no build diversity . everyone will pick the biggest stat stick with the skills that gives the most damage otherwise you'll be cannon fodder

This is also absolutely true. Build diversity comes from the game offering diversity in potential goals. Ashes has promised to also provide this goal diversity, so we either have to trust that it is coming, or assume that the signs that they can't/don't know how to do it are going to lead down that path.

But they ask for feedback and the feedback they usually get is 'this design sucks', so to assume they won't change even stuff like that is equivalent to having no faith at all.

Ludullu

They also promised the "DIALS", which were supposed to let us control the gear's specialization and stat directions. So, if that's still on the table, I'd imagine we'll have all the build variety we can have once that's implemented.

And even if that feature gets cornered into a "you choose gear with the highest def values and then apply your preferred stats to it" place - there's still hope for armor passives and armor types, which would at least triple the potential variety of "BiS". And considering that we'll be playing a PvX game with, hopefully, a variety of party compositions (or class combos, if we do end up with "1-of-each" design) - you'll either carry all 3 types of gear on you or you'll have to choose what's best for your preferred playstyle/group composition.

And at that point, I don't really know how much further build variety can be taken.

Azherae

That might be, definitionally, as far as it can possibly be taken.

But that isn't how most players will see it or interact with it almost no matter what you do, so it's not too worth it for Devs to try to push it further in any obvious way.

I'm gonna be so glad when Ashes catches up to PoE/TL and people stop 'worrying' about this, but realistically, they won't, because some idiot in Global chat will just go 'High Priest is the only good healer wdym, healers don't need damage' and then there will be a post about 'gatekeeping' on Reddit or something.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

some idiot in Global chat will just go 'High Priest is the only good healer wdym, healers don't need damage' and then there will be a post about 'gatekeeping' on Reddit or something.

Me. I am that idiot

ShaggyRyn

Ludullu wrote: »

They also promised the "DIALS", which were supposed to let us control the gear's specialization and stat directions. So, if that's still on the table, I'd imagine we'll have all the build variety we can have once that's implemented.

And even if that feature gets cornered into a "you choose gear with the highest def values and then apply your preferred stats to it" place - there's still hope for armor passives and armor types, which would at least triple the potential variety of "BiS". And considering that we'll be playing a PvX game with, hopefully, a variety of party compositions (or class combos, if we do end up with "1-of-each" design) - you'll either carry all 3 types of gear on you or you'll have to choose what's best for your preferred playstyle/group composition.

And at that point, I don't really know how much further build variety can be taken.

See just difference stat build on gear is not enough. If you want your gear to really matter it needs to offer more than stats. This way you have people picking off preferences more that what is strictly better.

Azherae

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

Ludullu wrote: »

They also promised the "DIALS", which were supposed to let us control the gear's specialization and stat directions. So, if that's still on the table, I'd imagine we'll have all the build variety we can have once that's implemented.

And even if that feature gets cornered into a "you choose gear with the highest def values and then apply your preferred stats to it" place - there's still hope for armor passives and armor types, which would at least triple the potential variety of "BiS". And considering that we'll be playing a PvX game with, hopefully, a variety of party compositions (or class combos, if we do end up with "1-of-each" design) - you'll either carry all 3 types of gear on you or you'll have to choose what's best for your preferred playstyle/group composition.

And at that point, I don't really know how much further build variety can be taken.

See just difference stat build on gear is not enough. If you want your gear to really matter it needs to offer more than stats. This way you have people picking off preferences more that what is strictly better.

Wait, have you never played a game where the stats on your gear are actually a matter of actual preference?

Like 'this gear offers me either Ranged or Magic Evasion and I fight Magic enemies so I choose Magic evasion and then tweak the rest of my build to that'.

I genuinely ask because I know many games don't, but even ESO and BDO actually get this far (unless you're only talking about whatever the current meta is).

Ludullu

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

See just difference stat build on gear is not enough. If you want your gear to really matter it needs to offer more than stats. This way you have people picking off preferences more that what is strictly better.

On top of Azherae's question, I'd like to clarify what exactly do you mean by "stat build" here? And what other things could gear even provide?

Cause, as I imagine them, the dials should range all the way from "you get 1 str" to "+15% chance to resist poison attacks from amphibious animals".

Like, what else is even possible, if gear is not giving you some kind of stat gain? Oh, and I see any potential party synergistic effects to be "stats" as well. "your water spells do 10% more damage, if there's a mage/archer in your party" is still a stat bonus to me.

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