Instanced PVP (Arena and/or Battlegrounds)

Greetings!

Like many others, I have been following AOC for years and am beyond excited for everything it has to over. However, I wanted to bring up a concerning issue I have.

For myself, I love both PVP and PVE content but I play PVP far more than anything else in an MMORPG. I read that AOC is primarily going to be open world content so there are going to be incentives for engaging with other players during events and what not. However, does this mean there won't be any small scale PVP that you can simply queue into or visit an area that is dedicated to small scale PVP? My favorite content happens to be 1v1 & 2v2 combat and it would be a bummer to have to only rely on stumbling across another person in the open world. I am perfectly fine with queuing into an arena/battleground or visiting a colosseum type area in which this type of thing can occur.

I would love to see a dev forum/discussion on this to see what direction PVP will be going in for AOC!

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Comments

Laetitian

Nightmarelol wrote: »

I mean it’s not even close with the popularity, WoW End Game PvP / PvE is what made it so successful (Arenas / Battlegrounds / Raiding / Dungeons). Don’t get me wrong, there was World PvP as someone who played WoW since Vanilla, but ofcourse just like every World PvP experience's (WoW/New World etc etc) it is usually is short lived, and until one side over-masses in numbers, which then ends in people running away.
End Game Content should be more focused on then catering to a few (maybe could happen mini skirmishes)

At the end of the day, AOC is a business, and money/profit margins would come in to play, WoW’s success still holding the #1 spot for MMORPGs, just comes to show what the people want I guess.

Not saying World PvP is bad, I myself do enjoy the odd fights here and there, but just like anything in life, without an end goal or something to look forward too (Arena rewards etc ) it dies really quickly. Stated before by @Apok, I don’t have the playing time I used to when I was younger, so mindlessly running around trying to find a fight or have to sit there organising one would be quite daunting, especially if ya come up empty.

You are so brainwashed, and you have no awareness of it.

If WoW is so great and you want a game that copies everything it does, go play WoW. Clearly you have no need for whatever is happening here. Ask Blizzard to make WoW 2, if you just want a new look slapped on it.

It's either that, or accept that the formula where every player "gets to" do the same things individually without any meaningful interaction with each other, or impact on the world they play in, is soul-less, and games need to divorce with that formula in order to create something better. Which means giving up some of the things you like.

You can't have something better and also hold on to everything you liked. You'd just get an incoherent mess like ESO.

No need to argue with me, I'll just repeat this point until Ashes releases, because your mindless WoW obsession and status quo preservation sermons are really getting on my nerves and preventing meaningful discussion.

Knetik

Keep in mind, this is NOT a themepark mmo, it is more of a social sandbox. The whole point of the game is in world interactions. This isn't meant to be the #1 mainstream mmo. Games like WoW and FFXIV will always trump games like AoC because they build around the mainstream audience. PvP centric games are always niche.

Not every game needs to be aiming to have the most players in the scene. I will say that AoC will NOT be the game for most of the mmo playerbase. It is a different audience.

Pyrolol

A lot of players enjoy the competitive edge, and pushing their classes to the limit in a controlled environment, I found in big OW scenarios people just hide and get the rewards for doing the bare basics and the bigger party wins where as having a controlled environment shows a true display of skill.

Again, let’s see how Ashes handle it as they have seem to gone the route of it not being the core PvP aspect so the only way OW fails in AoC is if this is a dead game.

Some of my best experiences were in ranked competitive modes and climbing the ladder

neobpm

Open World PvP and competitive instanced PvP can coexist together, see games like Warhammer Online and please stop forbidding more possibilities for AoC.

judasalive

neobpm wrote: »

Open World PvP and competitive instanced PvP can coexist together, see games like Warhammer Online and please stop forbidding more possibilities for AoC.

100% agree on this! WAR showed us that PvP makes a lot of fun, instanced or open pvp and WITHOUT a ladder! The only ladder system I enjoied were in GW1 the "Hall of Heroes tournament ladder"

In WAR, there was also an open world pvp mechanic similar (in core) to AoC. I hope that in AoC they can keep it up and bring us a good enjoyable system :-)

KingDDD

judasalive wrote: »

neobpm wrote: »

Open World PvP and competitive instanced PvP can coexist together, see games like Warhammer Online and please stop forbidding more possibilities for AoC.

100% agree on this! WAR showed us that PvP makes a lot of fun, instanced or open pvp and WITHOUT a ladder! The only ladder system I enjoied were in GW1 the "Hall of Heroes tournament ladder"

In WAR, there was also an open world pvp mechanic similar (in core) to AoC. I hope that in AoC they can keep it up and bring us a good enjoyable system :-)

WARs pvp lakes were different in that they were portions of the map segregated from the pve. There was no reason to go into those areas unless you wanted pvp. In aoc resource acquisition and traversal must be done in all areas of the world. If the map and it's resources are designed correctly, aoc will have organic arenas formed with quasi balanced combatants both in numbers and progression. This keeps the excitement of of the unknown found in open world games and provides the same small-scale gameplay of arenas.

Pyrolol

I don’t know if the people commenting are actually playing this Alpha at all, there is literally hardly any PvP even at max level, you have to sign up to do a node war and selected so the big guilds do those

The sand badlands with open flagging system and zero punishment is constantly dead, yes I know it’s just an Alpha but have you actually run around there, it’s just big groups farming so unless you had a group of 8 then you’re not going to get far in unbalanced PvP, everywhere else is next to non PvP happening

Non corruption areas still have barely any PvP,
Big groups just go kill caravans (not actually fight anyone) and considering how small this map is you would expect constant player interaction, wouldn’t mind some sort of BG to test battling other players at some stage for this Alpha

For a PvX game it is very one sided, a lot of PvP players want a fairer environment where we can just verse players and not have to worry about mobs or the unbalanced masses of players to verse

So stop being so obtuse about it and trying to restrict confirmed content before it’s even released and had a chance

RonDog98

Noaani wrote: »

Apok wrote: »

Yeah over world PvP doesn't always work out like how people think it is and you can't force it. if there's nothing to do besides hunt people in the world for any pvp I doubt they'll get the player base to make it a viable system.

game will definitely need some kind of instanced pvp even in a survival game like ark on a well populated server it can be hard to come by people unless you're using esp hacks which is usually the case when someone finds you in open world situations.

Yeah, but Ark is an action adventure survival game, not an MMORPG.

The difference is not something to be understated - the games probably shouldn't be compared in this regard.

Many PvP oriented MMORPG's with a focus on open world have existed and been financial successes - there is no reason at all to think that in itself will cause Ashes any issues.

Which ones have been a financial success.

AirborneBerserker

timjimtwo wrote: »

Instanced PVP kills open world pvp bnecause everyone hangs out in protected places and runs pre-made groups...same old tired games for the rush to max level min / maxers. It will hands down ruin AOC

Wonder why that is? Maybe because OWPvP usually ends up being a one sided massacre.

Endowed wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

Endowed wrote: »

If you have instanced (safe n sterile) pvp grounds... there needs to be the same for pve/raids.

*note* open world pvp dissapates with BGs every-single-time.

There are instanced dungeons confirmed?
Have you even bothered reading the Ashes wiki?

No they are not.
Dungeons/raids are subject to outside interference, as is everything. Arenas would be a move to safe n sterile.
Thus my post.

Yes portions of them are. There are some world bosses which can be interfered with but 20% of dungeons are instanced (that is parts of dungeons).

Knetik wrote: »

Keep in mind, this is NOT a themepark mmo, it is more of a social sandbox. The whole point of the game is in world interactions. This isn't meant to be the #1 mainstream mmo. Games like WoW and FFXIV will always trump games like AoC because they build around the mainstream audience. PvP centric games are always niche.

Not every game needs to be aiming to have the most players in the scene. I will say that AoC will NOT be the game for most of the mmo playerbase. It is a different audience.

Except it's not a social sandbox it's more like social sandbox lite. The game doesn't commit to anything except OWPvP, and going out of its way to fuck solo players.

@Gandohar Best not to rile up the rabble. The idea of having fun by your self causes people in these forums to burst into flames and shriek at the top of their lungs. They think if they add a BG the game will explode and no one will OWPvP. Which begs the question if that's the case why is it so easy to pull people away from OWPvP is it possibly because most people don't like OWPvP?

Noaani

RonDog98 wrote: »

Which ones have been a financial success.

L2, DAoC, Archeage, Albion, BDO, EVE and Tera all come to mind immediately as games that were absolutely financial successes for their developers.

Sure, some of them have closed down, but they closed down after making a shitload of money.

There are some PvP MMO's that have been unsuccessful. I would consider Crowfall to fit in to this. However, there have also been some MMORPG's without a PvP focus that have been unsuccessful, with Vanguard being the current poster child there, and Pantheon likely to be the future one.

Point is, some PvP MMO's have been successful, some have not. Some PvE MMO's have been successful, some have not. As such, this is not a direct contributor to success or failure.

Pyrolol

Yet, every game you listed gets squashed by WoW anyway. Keep vamping up them all you want but the numbers are there, they clearly had a working formula (hate it or love it) the old school expansions were amazing and there’s a reason WOTLK was the biggest @ 13 million players and voted best MMO expansion of all time

It had something to cater everyone inclusive of ranked 3v3/5v5 Arena modes and OW PvP and Hardcore PvE. Doing the the Wrath of Lich King Raid was optional for competitive PvPers, you didn’t have to do it but if you did you got the BIS gear that helped in the Arena as an advantage

My point is you can have all these systems and it still cater to everyone, the only way it doesn’t work is if AoC is literally a dead game, which I doubt it’s going to be

If you are looking for PvP in this Alpha 2 don’t bother atm unless you want to verse overcrowded groups or the occaisnal 1 person here or there an hour

neobpm

All the PvP I had in this game is a big zerg farming players, for me, the worst MMO PvP experience ever.

If this is the PvP AoC will has in the release, this game will fail a lot. We need roam, little battles arround the map for small, organized and skilled groups also an instanced BG mode with ELO rating, rankings and special rewards.

A part of this PvP needs some incentive, for example, in Warhammer Online when you kill someone in OWPvP you got XP, XP for PvP rank and possibility of drop like armour/weapons or PvP coins to buy PvP gear.

Noaani

Pyrolol wrote: »

Yet, every game you listed gets squashed by WoW anyway.

That is because there is no situation where a PvP focused MMORPG will ever be as popular as an equal quality PvE MMORPG.

The genre is at it's best when PvE is at the fore - always has been, always will be. Your example of WoW during WotLK is a perfect example of this - the game at that time was all about the PvE, with PvP tacked on as little more than an after thought. There was enough PvP to keep many PvP first players happy, but it was still an not even close to the primary focus of the game.

That is how you make an MMORPG you want to be popular - an MMORPG where you can fill up multiple 10k concurrent player servers.

That isn't what I was saying though, I was saying that an MMORPG being PvP forward doesn't automatically mean it will be a financial failure.

Pyrolol

Noaani wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

Yet, every game you listed gets squashed by WoW anyway.

That is because there is no situation where a PvP focused MMORPG will ever be as popular as an equal quality PvE MMORPG.

The genre is at it's best when PvE is at the fore - always has been, always will be. Your example of WoW during WotLK is a perfect example of this - the game at that time was all about the PvE, with PvP tacked on as little more than an after thought. There was enough PvP to keep many PvP first players happy, but it was still an not even close to the primary focus of the game.

That is how you make an MMORPG you want to be popular - an MMORPG where you can fill up multiple 10k concurrent player servers.

That isn't what I was saying though, I was saying that an MMORPG being PvP forward doesn't automatically mean it will be a financial failure.

That's exactly my point though, it had a PvP competitive system and the game was at its peak of MMO gaming, this after all is classified as a PvX game, 99% of this Alpha has mostly PvE experince
The OP Has suggested some sort of small instanced thing be in place so atleast PvP players can get their fix
Have you played any of this Alpha Noaani? Are you max level as well? Have you gone to the desert area yet and seen what it's like? What's your experience been in the current state of this Alpha in regards to PvP, did you feel there's enough in place at the moment?

Im agreeing with the OP, that yes can focus on all systems available but just give us SOMETHING to do in regards to PvP other than what's in it would be nice. I know there is Naval Warfare coming into P3 and more classes etc so they have their plates pretty fool. Just saying, would be nice

Il even take /duel at this point
Being corrupted is way to punishing to even risk participating in PvP

Noaani

Pyrolol wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

Yet, every game you listed gets squashed by WoW anyway.

That is because there is no situation where a PvP focused MMORPG will ever be as popular as an equal quality PvE MMORPG.

The genre is at it's best when PvE is at the fore - always has been, always will be. Your example of WoW during WotLK is a perfect example of this - the game at that time was all about the PvE, with PvP tacked on as little more than an after thought. There was enough PvP to keep many PvP first players happy, but it was still an not even close to the primary focus of the game.

That is how you make an MMORPG you want to be popular - an MMORPG where you can fill up multiple 10k concurrent player servers.

That isn't what I was saying though, I was saying that an MMORPG being PvP forward doesn't automatically mean it will be a financial failure.

That's exactly my point though, it had a PvP competitive system and the game was at its peak of MMO gaming, this after all is classified as a PvX game, 99% of this Alpha has mostly PvE experince

We've talked about this before.

The difference is always on open world PvP vs instanced.

A game with open world PvP is a PvP game. End of debate. It can have PvE, players can spend more time with PvE than PvP, but the game is a PvP game.

This is because with open world PvP, you can be forced in to PvP at any time. You could take a break to go for a shit, come back and someone PvP'd you and you're dead. You have to maintain a PvP mindset at literally all times in a game with open world PvP.

There is no actual debate around this - there is just Steven trying to avoid labeling Ashes as a PvP game, and a handful of posters here tagging along for the ride.

The simple fact is, if a game has always on open world PvP, it is a PvP game.

A game like WoW during WotLK (since it was the comparison you used) isn't open world PvP. Sure, it was on PvP servers, but WoW was a game where the open world didn't matter anyway - you would sit in town and teleport to dungeons.

What this means is that in WoW, you only have to PvP when you want to, even on PvP servers. You could turn it off at any time, you didn't have to always be thinking about PvP.

This is a drastic shift in how each game plays, how each game feels, and how popular each game can ever be.

Quite honestly, the best thing Intrepid could do for Ashes is to remove the notion of always on open world PvP and switch corruption over to something gained when attacking caravans.

Pyrolol

That’s not what happened in wotlk, people still had to go down to the dungeon areas, raids, daily quest area. Everyone had to go do the argent crusade to get the rep otherwise you would be cooked for PvE and or PvP, gold wasn’t easily accessible back then so 90% of the population had to do dailies and that was all running into the other faction constantly. There was so much interaction for OW PvP it’s not even funny and this is not even including the OW PvP in Wintergrasp, sitting in town definitely got you no where and also just remembered that professions were also important back then (not like current retail) so a lot of players were constantly running into each or fighting each other for mine, herb, fishing spots etc this was server based and no cross realm either so a lot of people would brawl each other due to seeing each other again after being ganked while leveling and including guilds going off at each other. Again proving that hardcore PvE and competitive ranked 3v3 Arena and open world PvP can all coexist easily and have a healthy participation of all systems in the game AS PROVEN IN WOTLK

Did you even play that lol and have you even played this Alpha at all? Or are you just guessing, if you have played this Alpha are you even max level yet? Have you gone to the new desert area yet? Still haven’t answered whether you’re even participating in this Alpha. Il also happily keep contributing to the forums as I’ve done since making The Arena Thread, as someone who has max levelled in both phase 1 & 2. I can give a lot of feedback on the current state and put forward some suggestions. If they get taken or not so be it

If your only experience is watching streamers i can guarantee it’s completely different in the game

Noaani

Pyrolol wrote: »

Did you even play that lol

No, I have never owned a WoW account, the games actual content always came across as sub-par in relation to other offerings of the time.

That's cool though, if WotLK was pre-LFG system, my point still remains. People would start off their day in town, get their group or raid, run to the content piece they are doing, and then PvP was over - at least it was if that is what people wanted to be doing. WoW always had enough instanced PvE content to keep people entertained and progressing.

The reason my point remains in tact even if I was wrong about LFG being in place or not is because even on PvP servers WoW allowed you to turn off PvP and still play the bulk of the game.

Ashes doesn't have this - and as I am sure you will be aware I have been arguing that it needs it for years.

An interesting point about WoW back then (I only know this from talking so someone that worked on Blizzards server infrustructure for the game) is that PvP servers had lower population caps than PvE servers. Make of that what you will - I just thought it worth mentioning.

If your only experience is watching streamers i can guarantee it’s completely different in the game

I don't watch streamers - if I post my thoughts on how useless I find them just in general as human beings, my forum account will be banned.

Pyrolol

LFG came in a later expansion
No, WOTLK did not have LFG, and you couldn’t turn off PvP either. If you made your character on a PvP server there was zero options to turn it off. You could die anywhere and anytime even in major cities, you just had guards and it was safer only due to the guards but you could still get ganked so I don’t know where ya getting that information from

You had to build groups up or join guilds and work your way up to get into the big hardcore raids, this was inclusive of the Arena, you had to make a 3v3 or 5v5 team charter and only the x amount of players in your signed up team could play the Arena with you, so if any of them weren’t on you could not participate in the Arena, which was more time spent in the open world. Also, a warlock could only summon if 2 other players were there to press it and had soulshards, so best case was 1-2 out of your full party were summoned or just ran there if no SS so the majority had to run there on foot

Please do not compare retail to OG WOTLK, there’s a reason it was the best expansion and had it all, there was so much player interaction but you seem to be arguing something you have absolutely no clue on (or just summarising some facts from more recent expansions, but either way its wrong)

Also, no PvP servers were massively populated including QUE times to even enter the server and the PvE servers weren’t even close to the population of PvP servers LOL

Have you even participated in this Alpha?

EDIT: Example of 3v3 customizable Arena Team Charter

Example of PvP and PvE server populations

AirborneBerserker

Noaani wrote: »

The reason my point remains in tact even if I was wrong about LFG being in place or not is because even on PvP servers WoW allowed you to turn off PvP and still play the bulk of the game.

No on PvP servers you are not able to unflag. You are always able to be attacked. PvE servers your able to unflag but it takes a bit and if you are attacked or attack someone else it stops the process.

Noaani

Pyrolol wrote: »

LFG came in a later expansion
No, WOTLK did not have LFG, and you couldn’t turn off PvP either.

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

The reason my point remains in tact even if I was wrong about LFG being in place or not is because even on PvP servers WoW allowed you to turn off PvP and still play the bulk of the game.

No on PvP servers you are not able to unflag. You are always able to be attacked. PvE servers your able to unflag but it takes a bit and if you are attacked or attack someone else it stops the process.

If you re-read my two posts on this matter, you will (hopefully) see that I am talking about entering instances.

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