Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two testing is currently taking place five days each week. More information about Phase II and Phase III testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two testing is currently taking place five days each week. More information about Phase II and Phase III testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
[Suggestion]A Problem at Launch and Later in MMOs
kazistrasz
Member, Alpha Two
This is not an attack on the grind this game is projected to require to level. I'm writing this to highlight what I believe to be a major concern I see with new player retention both early in the game's cycle after launch and even months and years down the road. Imagine the following two scenarios:
One: You've got a couple friends who are also gamers. They start telling you about a new MMO they've started playing, all the hype of class and world design, the unique systems, etc. They convince you to start playing so you can play with them. You finally decide to get the game. You get in, and the first few levels start flying by, but then you get into the real grind of the game. You want to be able to play with your friends, but you can't. They're already at or close to max level, and there's such a level gap between you and them is such that if they join you for a dungeon or some quests, you get no experience. You can't really meaningfully play with them until you put at least 200 hours to catch up to them in level. Disappointed in not being able to actually play with them, and with the long grind ahead of you, you eventually play less and less until you don't play at all.
Two: You've gotten bored with your usual game. You decide to change to a new game, and you pick this popular game that's been out for awhile and is well established. You get in, you start flying threw the first levels, but then you start getting to some quests and dungeons that are better handled in a group. You try to find a group for it, but it takes hours to find a group because the majority of the player base is max level and due to the length of the grind, not many have made it to your level. You're essentially stuck solo leveling and unable to experience the joys of mid-level dungeons and eventually get bored of the game. You quit, uninstall, and move on to another game.
These scenarios aren't pure fiction. They happen time and time again. They have played out time and time again across many MMOs over the last 20+ years. Even now, on the megaservers that make up the Anniversary Realms for WoW Classic, it is happening as the majority of the player base is now 60, and finding people to do group quests or dungeons with in the 30s and 40s is a huge challenge. People have quit MMOs for years over this.
The actual culprit that will need changing to this is the system that nerfs XP within a group of wide level difference. It is true that no one wants this game to become dominated by bots and gold farmers offering boosting services like WoW Classic eventually became, but there are other ways to avoid that reality that most other modern MMOs have implemented successfully: downscaling.
In Guild Wars 2, if you go adventuring in any of the explorable zones, your level is reduced and your stats scaled down to the maximum level of that area, and it is dynamic throughout the zone. In the starting level 1 to 10 zones, you may be scaled down to level 4 at the very starter area, but then when you run around the starter zone, you might be scaled to 7, or 8, or 10, or 12 in the highest level parts of that starter zone. Your friends can join you while you do some questing along the way without obliterating everything they touch and taking away the fun of the fight. They can run dungeons with you and be scaled down to your level for those dungeons. Now, there are a few downsides to the way GW2 has done this.
In Final Fantasy XIV, players are scaled down for dungeon content to the level of that dungeon. Not only are their stats scaled, but available spells and abilities are restricted to only those that would be normally available at that level. To further encourage players at max level to do those lower level dungeons, they give players a daily reward for doing different roulettes every day - and some of those roulettes can give you any dungeon you've unlocked yet. This not only means that someone at max level (whatever that is now) might get queued into a level 30 dungeon with a bunch of level 30 players, but so might also a level 50 player. Worth nothing that they do not have a downscaling that applies throughout the open world, only in instanced content. The only downsides to this approach as it applies to AOC, I think are:
In particular, I think Final Fantasy XIV is an important case study here. The time it takes to reach max level, because so much is gated behind the Main Story Quest line in the game, is significantly longer than what it takes to reach max level in any MMO out there, longer probably than any other MMO has ever taken at any stage in its life. And yet, despite this immense grind, a combination of quality story writing and the roulette system with its downscaling keeping lower level content relevant to players at max level makes the journey to max level still enjoyable. The immense resurgence the game has had in the last few years, particularly drawing players from World of Warcraft, while still retaining so many of those players throughout that very, very long grind to max level is a true success story from which I think Intrepid devs could take a few notes.
In summary, I think instead of having a system which reduces player XP in parties with large level discrepancies, Ashes of Creation would benefit from systems to downscale higher level players to allow (and encourage) players at max level to continue interacting with and grouping with players who are still leveling and newer to the game. I think not doing this opens up the door to significant new player retention difficulties at virtually all stages of the lifespan of the game after first few weeks of the initial launch, and that would really suck because the little I've gotten to play and learn about the game so far has shown it is so promising and fun from the get go.
One: You've got a couple friends who are also gamers. They start telling you about a new MMO they've started playing, all the hype of class and world design, the unique systems, etc. They convince you to start playing so you can play with them. You finally decide to get the game. You get in, and the first few levels start flying by, but then you get into the real grind of the game. You want to be able to play with your friends, but you can't. They're already at or close to max level, and there's such a level gap between you and them is such that if they join you for a dungeon or some quests, you get no experience. You can't really meaningfully play with them until you put at least 200 hours to catch up to them in level. Disappointed in not being able to actually play with them, and with the long grind ahead of you, you eventually play less and less until you don't play at all.
Two: You've gotten bored with your usual game. You decide to change to a new game, and you pick this popular game that's been out for awhile and is well established. You get in, you start flying threw the first levels, but then you start getting to some quests and dungeons that are better handled in a group. You try to find a group for it, but it takes hours to find a group because the majority of the player base is max level and due to the length of the grind, not many have made it to your level. You're essentially stuck solo leveling and unable to experience the joys of mid-level dungeons and eventually get bored of the game. You quit, uninstall, and move on to another game.
These scenarios aren't pure fiction. They happen time and time again. They have played out time and time again across many MMOs over the last 20+ years. Even now, on the megaservers that make up the Anniversary Realms for WoW Classic, it is happening as the majority of the player base is now 60, and finding people to do group quests or dungeons with in the 30s and 40s is a huge challenge. People have quit MMOs for years over this.
The actual culprit that will need changing to this is the system that nerfs XP within a group of wide level difference. It is true that no one wants this game to become dominated by bots and gold farmers offering boosting services like WoW Classic eventually became, but there are other ways to avoid that reality that most other modern MMOs have implemented successfully: downscaling.
In Guild Wars 2, if you go adventuring in any of the explorable zones, your level is reduced and your stats scaled down to the maximum level of that area, and it is dynamic throughout the zone. In the starting level 1 to 10 zones, you may be scaled down to level 4 at the very starter area, but then when you run around the starter zone, you might be scaled to 7, or 8, or 10, or 12 in the highest level parts of that starter zone. Your friends can join you while you do some questing along the way without obliterating everything they touch and taking away the fun of the fight. They can run dungeons with you and be scaled down to your level for those dungeons. Now, there are a few downsides to the way GW2 has done this.
- If you are starting out gathering resources for your crafting skills, you aren't at max level riding through lower level zones, however the scaling was done to put you at just a bit above the mobs of that area (so if the mobs around that iron ore node are 22, you'll be scaled to like 25).
- They didn't properly account for having better gear at max level, so the higher tiers of gear quality above rare that don't exist at lower level don't get scaled down quite enough. This should be easily remediable by having the scale-down coding reduce gear down to rarities that are available at that level and then scale their stats.
- Players retain all of their skills when scaled down, so they can still execute combos they wouldn't have normally been able to. In particular, their elite skills don't scale down well. This is similarly fixable by setting each skill a way to scale all the way down in level from the outset by design.
In Final Fantasy XIV, players are scaled down for dungeon content to the level of that dungeon. Not only are their stats scaled, but available spells and abilities are restricted to only those that would be normally available at that level. To further encourage players at max level to do those lower level dungeons, they give players a daily reward for doing different roulettes every day - and some of those roulettes can give you any dungeon you've unlocked yet. This not only means that someone at max level (whatever that is now) might get queued into a level 30 dungeon with a bunch of level 30 players, but so might also a level 50 player. Worth nothing that they do not have a downscaling that applies throughout the open world, only in instanced content. The only downsides to this approach as it applies to AOC, I think are:
- The removal of higher level abilities can be awkward. This solves some of the awkward scaling issues faced in the way GW2 implements their downscaling, but there's certainly an adjustment period at the start of every dungeon when you're figuring out which of your abilities you're used to having are still available and what your optimal rotation is with what abilities you have left. With the talent tree system in AOC, this could be difficult to implement, so I think a downscaling system where players keep their full range of spells and abilities but they're coded to be able to appropriately scale to all levels is probably the best approach.
- This involves a queuing system from around the world, and it does create a fairly easy way for players to generate some value for themselves. The roulettes available while leveling give you a once-per-day XP bonus for completing the dungeon, and at max level they offer relevant currency rewards. While a queue system might not be in the works for AOC, there could easily be a commission board that gets players to do a lower level dungeon once per day.
In particular, I think Final Fantasy XIV is an important case study here. The time it takes to reach max level, because so much is gated behind the Main Story Quest line in the game, is significantly longer than what it takes to reach max level in any MMO out there, longer probably than any other MMO has ever taken at any stage in its life. And yet, despite this immense grind, a combination of quality story writing and the roulette system with its downscaling keeping lower level content relevant to players at max level makes the journey to max level still enjoyable. The immense resurgence the game has had in the last few years, particularly drawing players from World of Warcraft, while still retaining so many of those players throughout that very, very long grind to max level is a true success story from which I think Intrepid devs could take a few notes.
In summary, I think instead of having a system which reduces player XP in parties with large level discrepancies, Ashes of Creation would benefit from systems to downscale higher level players to allow (and encourage) players at max level to continue interacting with and grouping with players who are still leveling and newer to the game. I think not doing this opens up the door to significant new player retention difficulties at virtually all stages of the lifespan of the game after first few weeks of the initial launch, and that would really suck because the little I've gotten to play and learn about the game so far has shown it is so promising and fun from the get go.
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Comments
Instead of automatic, dynamic scaling based on location in game, due to sometimes the need to be able to blast through low level areas to spawn huntable mobs and due to how interspersed mobs of different levels are throughout the world, instead make an opt-in scaling when joining a party. Players can could choose to enable scaling when partying up where they would get scaled to being only X levels above the lowest level player in the party where they would no longer need to nerf XP gains.
It's a ticking time bomb. As players start dropping off after the launch, this has a cascading effect on quality of gameplay. Especially in sandbox games where presence of players is required to enable: group content, crafting, economy and player generated content. Both upscaling and downscaling can address some of those issues. Also I look forward to reading the posts from people who are strongly against it, because they love one shooting low level mobs and players, and feel entitled to their stat advantages. There is more to (MMO)RPGs, but sadly for many character progression is all about bigger numbers.
Intrepid is also walking into this with their eyes shut, just like so many other studios before.
Blown past falling sands…
Two: You've gotten bored with your usual game. You decide to change to a new game, and you pick this popular game that's been out for awhile and is well established. You get in, you start flying threw the first levels, but then you start getting to some quests and dungeons that are better handled in a group. You try to find a group for it, but it takes hours to find a group because the majority of the player base is max level and due to the length of the grind, not many have made it to your level. You're essentially stuck solo leveling and unable to experience the joys of mid-level dungeons and eventually get bored of the game. You quit, uninstall, and move on to another game.
There's really no dungeons that you'd be running like in WoW, or 'traditional' mmos. Quest leveling can be more boring than grinding, people only do it for quest exp and quest rewards. Basically just to maximize their leveling. Very few quests in MMOs are actually good story telling. I actually think in this game it'll be easier for you to level if you have friends at max level and well equiped.
1. There's no soul binding, so your friends will be able to tweak you out in the best gear you can equip at your level. This will allow you to level much easier and much faster.
2. Depending on how sweaty your friends on they'll likely be tweaking their alts and will level with you. The game will be fairly alt friendly in this regards. They'll run alts for having mules and extra crafters/processers/gathers, or just troll characters.
Every MMO has a similar issue, people who've been playing for a year will be much stronger than those who have been playing for a month. This is a stable of MMOs. It's not a problem.
These scenarios aren't pure fiction. They happen time and time again. They have played out time and time again across many MMOs over the last 20+ years. Even now, on the megaservers that make up the Anniversary Realms for WoW Classic, it is happening as the majority of the player base is now 60, and finding people to do group quests or dungeons with in the 30s and 40s is a huge challenge. People have quit MMOs for years over this.
People have largely moved on from older MMOs. Reaching end game and completely all endgame content people tend to quit playing. The late adopters of the game will run into issues, this is why mmos slowly change over the years to accodate the player base. A MMO player base in the first year isn't the same as it's 5th year.
In Guild Wars 2, if you go adventuring in any of the explorable zones, your level is reduced and your stats scaled down to the maximum level of that area, and it is dynamic throughout the zone. In the starting level 1 to 10 zones, you may be scaled down to level 4 at the very starter area, but then when you run around the starter zone, you might be scaled to 7, or 8, or 10, or 12 in the highest level parts of that starter zone. Your friends can join you while you do some questing along the way without obliterating everything they touch and taking away the fun of the fight. They can run dungeons with you and be scaled down to your level for those dungeons. Now, there are a few downsides to the way GW2 has done this.
I hate level scaling in all forms, what you say in GW and what's in ESO. I don't want to be scaled up or down. My personal opinion aside, how do you make that work in Ashes PvX? I don't think you can even if they wanted to. It's not a PvE game with PvP elements. It's a PvP with PvE elements.
In Final Fantasy XIV, players are scaled down for dungeon content to the level of that dungeon. Not only are their stats scaled, but available spells and abilities are restricted to only those that would be normally available at that level. To further encourage players at max level to do those lower level dungeons, they give players a daily reward for doing different roulettes every day - and some of those roulettes can give you any dungeon you've unlocked yet. This not only means that someone at max level (whatever that is now) might get queued into a level 30 dungeon with a bunch of level 30 players, but so might also a level 50 player. Worth nothing that they do not have a downscaling that applies throughout the open world, only in instanced content. The only downsides to this approach as it applies to AOC, I think are:
Again, this isn't a PvE game. Dungeon queueing or dungeon boards won't be a thing because there will only be instanced dungeons that are instanced for the main story line. I hope this changes, but it probably won't.
Also again you're relying on scaling. Many people don't like scaling. FFXIV also had rewards for higher levels running lower level dungeons, they had to because the game was story driven and you couldn't progress without doing that dungeon. Here the game is economy driven. For the story instance dungeons ashes will have you just bring your friends in to run it, even if they're maxed level.
In particular, I think Final Fantasy XIV is an important case study here. The time it takes to reach max level, because so much is gated behind the Main Story Quest line in the game, is significantly longer than what it takes to reach max level in any MMO out there, longer probably than any other MMO has ever taken at any stage in its life. And yet, despite this immense grind, a combination of quality story writing and the roulette system with its downscaling keeping lower level content relevant to players at max level makes the journey to max level still enjoyable. The immense resurgence the game has had in the last few years, particularly drawing players from World of Warcraft, while still retaining so many of those players throughout that very, very long grind to max level is a true success story from which I think Intrepid devs could take a few notes.
I can only assume you're a younger MMO player. FFXIV was fast leveling. Slow leveling is FFXI, or EQ, or Ultima, or any MUD. If your comparing to games like Throne and Liberty, well yeah FFXIV is slow lol. Ashes, I assume, is trying to bring back that grind to max level and gear. Same repsonse to your WoW comment. But also those are very different games than what Ashes is trying to be.
In summary, I think instead of having a system which reduces player XP in parties with large level discrepancies, Ashes of Creation would benefit from systems to downscale higher level players to allow (and encourage) players at max level to continue interacting with and grouping with players who are still leveling and newer to the game. I think not doing this opens up the door to significant new player retention difficulties at virtually all stages of the lifespan of the game after first few weeks of the initial launch, and that would really suck because the little I've gotten to play and learn about the game so far has shown it is so promising and fun from the get go.
Reducing XP while in a party with a big level spread is to prevent power leveling. This will be critical in a PvX game. If a massive guild can power level all new players it'll give them a massive advantage, and greatly devalues the time people spent leveling that didn't power level. Aside from devaluing players times, it will create exploitable opportunities for guilds.
A scaling mechanic isn't going to work in a PvX game. Way too many opportunities for conflict in PvP and scaling will mess all that up.
You'll have to find it, but Steven said he's not trying to compete with WoW or other 'themepark' style mmos. Ya might have bought something thinking it was something else.
But, your condescending tone is appreciated. Have a a wonderful day.