Crafting stations and node loyalty

I think the node system planned for AoC is great, however after playing/testing for some time i have some major concerns. Problem is, for the system to work as intended, there need to be people in the world loyal to their nodes maybe even more than their guilds. Otherwise the world will degenerate into a few nodes with huge population with other nodes being abandoned, and as soon as the node goes through rough time a lot of people will just leave for greener pastures.

And i think node loyalty will just not exist due to how crafting stations work. Say, you're a cook who joined a node early but 2 months later, there's still not even a JM cooking station because the node has other priorities. So you gotta spend most of your time in another node which can be far away, barely enjoying the benefits of your citizenship, and being unable to contribute to your own node. And since there's no guarantee that the cooking station will ever be built, it's better to switch citizenship. The benefits you get from being a long-time citizen just aren't worth it if your node is just useless for your main profession.

I think instead of higher level station allowing to craft higher level recipes, it would be better if you could craft anything in a crafting station *in the node of your citizenship* with higher tiers providing more queue slots, or having lower service fees for higher tier recipes, or both. This would AT LEAST let you even exist in the node while still allowing for node specialization.

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Ludullu

I think they need to tie node loyalty to some other features, because neither adventure leveling nor artisanry would work for it.

Only the entire node vassal system will have all the stations at max lvl (if that IS possible even), so unless Steven wants us to only be loyal to the "kingdom" rather than our node - Intrepid will have to add other features to create loyalty to nodes.

tashka

I'm not sure how you can be loyal to the node if you can't do your craft there. Can't imagine what kind of feature could possibly compensate for that. It also puts people pursuing underutilized professions into a massive disadvantage, because not only it's underutilized per say, but also your node has fewer citizens so it develops more slowly and will never have a chance to grow into say a metropolis. Loyalty to the kingdom is cool, but from what i gather you won't even be able to vote for the matters of your senior node. It's like "so you like cooking in MMOs, enjoy being an underclass".

Ludullu

tashka wrote: »

It's like "so you like cooking in MMOs, enjoy being an underclass".

This will be true for majority of activities in the game though. That's what the game is built on. Hardcore players will win as long as the casuals try to compete with them at something.

As for loyalty based on artisanry, the same can be said about loyalty based on pve content. How can someone be loyal to their node if their main dungeon location is in a different node.

And then the same applies to guild affiliations, that you already brought up, to personal preferences of locations (i.e. mountains vs the beach, etc), to lore relations, race visuals preferences, etc etc.

There's a ton of reasons for why a person could NOT be loyal to their own node. And Steven's desire for that loyalty has been brought up and discussed in the past. And yeah, so far we don't know how exactly he wants that loyalty to grow or even be sustainable through lost sieges and player churn.

oddstero

Citizen Rank would be an easy way to encourage this, perhaps some buff while in node.

Taxes are also a disincentive to hop nodes since if you move late to a higher population node, your taxes will be much higher.

And since you can only have 2 Journeymen buildings at Rank 3, most citizens will not be specialized in their respective buildings. And you want fellow citizens in all the other professions to trade with as well.

And if you've done a bunch of commissions/requisitions leveling that node and gotten to know players there, then that's a pretty good incentive to stay in the node as well.

tashka

Ludullu wrote: »

tashka wrote: »

It's like "so you like cooking in MMOs, enjoy being an underclass".

As for loyalty based on artisanry, the same can be said about loyalty based on pve content. How can someone be loyal to their node if their main dungeon location is in a different node.

You can do any dungeon of appropriate level, you don't need to level any specific skill to farm any specific dungeon. But spending weeks to level a specific skill and having no station to use it i imagine would be a deal breaker. It's something you just can't compensate for.

Azherae

If the Freehold system works decently, that will probably handle it.

I say this because of EVE and Elite Dangerous, basically.

The latter has just released its own update/advancement to its Node system and we're now 'building our own', but because of the type of playerbase, it's actually going quite well in terms of 'loyalty', 'cooperation', and planning.

I figure Ashes players might be the same way. If you join a Node as 'a cook' and there's no station there for it, it's probably something to just discuss with other node members.

tashka

it's probably something to just discuss with other node members

Idk no amount of discussing can add more slots.

Ludullu

tashka wrote: »

You can do any dungeon of appropriate level, you don't need to level any specific skill to farm any specific dungeon. But spending weeks to level a specific skill and having no station to use it i imagine would be a deal breaker. It's something you just can't compensate for.

If I'm a tank and live on the western continent, but my BiS gear drops on the eastern one - I'd need to either travel there each time I wanna farm the gear, or I'd need to just live there for a while until I get fully geared out.

Gathering can be leveled anywhere. Best processing stations will be in freeholds. Crafting is a one-and-done thing that simply requires movement of resources. Movement of resources is one of the biggest pillars of the game (caravans and all that).

If anything, I personally foresee caravan market journeys where you go from your node to the node with the top crafting station for your profession, and you buy more resources along the way and throw them into your caravan. You craft everything at your destination and then come back home with the spoils.

Considering that Metros will have the best crafting stations by default, whole guilds from the vassal systems will be doing those kinds of caravan runs to Metros every now and then. And this action in itself will create more guild-based content, cause it's prone to backstabbing, guild politics and just general highwayman pvp.

To me that seems like the design is "working as intended".

Volgaris

tashka wrote: »

I think the node system planned for AoC is great, however after playing/testing for some time i have some major concerns. Problem is, for the system to work as intended, there need to be people in the world loyal to their nodes maybe even more than their guilds. Otherwise the world will degenerate into a few nodes with huge population with other nodes being abandoned, and as soon as the node goes through rough time a lot of people will just leave for greener pastures.

And i think node loyalty will just not exist due to how crafting stations work. Say, you're a cook who joined a node early but 2 months later, there's still not even a JM cooking station because the node has other priorities. So you gotta spend most of your time in another node which can be far away, barely enjoying the benefits of your citizenship, and being unable to contribute to your own node. And since there's no guarantee that the cooking station will ever be built, it's better to switch citizenship. The benefits you get from being a long-time citizen just aren't worth it if your node is just useless for your main profession.

I think instead of higher level station allowing to craft higher level recipes, it would be better if you could craft anything in a crafting station *in the node of your citizenship* with higher tiers providing more queue slots, or having lower service fees for higher tier recipes, or both. This would AT LEAST let you even exist in the node while still allowing for node specialization.

I don't see any value in Node loyalty in the alpha. Just go to the Node that provides the things you want. The lack of loyalty to anything outside your Guild is a big issue though. If they get name plates on the caravans, corpses, mounts ect. That shows the owners Guild, Node, and Religion than that'll help, but there's still little consequence to ignoring those name plates and just killing and looting people who are of the same Node/Religion (not likely for guildies to kill each other) with only the only game mechanic punishment being corruption.

In your example. If your guild says something like "Winstead is our home, everyone be a citizen here." But that Node has no plans to doing cooking station upgrades than you need to go do that at the another Node. And possibly be a citizen of that other Node if you need those perks. This could cause a rift in the guild, which is by design. The game will have a Vassal system which will kind of form a "Kingdom", so you might be able to get some perks from another Node within the same Vassal Network. Won't know the details until that's out though.

If the crafting station level was based of the characters loyalty or reputation than what's the point of building up Nodes?

Azherae

But it's a matter of degrees, and the concept of prosperity is based on people.

Players, particularly groups, will have some understanding of this.

The new Colonization system in Elite Dangerous allows players to expand into all new star systems within a certain range, and then choose what facilities to build there (so I think it's fair to compare them).

But even though you can expand into a star system with just small icy balls around a low temperature star, or in some cases even into systems with no planetary bodies at all and just one star, very few of those in my sector are getting any attention.

In fact, most players have expanded into the obvious locations that they understand will be profitable and started building things in groups because they already have an idea of the gameplay they intend.

Most importantly, a larger node has more slots, making it more like a sector or a pre-established Star System, in this example, so you're moreso building a 'suburb' of a thing that already exists.

I believe the dynamics will work as intended once the Economy Designer has time to review the goals and update the economy incentives. We just can't feel it now because T3 Nodes are like 'a Star System with only one planet (or none)' which, in Elite, feels like whoever started a Colonization of it 'made a mistake' unless they're part of an established group with a development plan for the sector. T4 and higher nodes won't just be 'well this place is just outright better', they will also be 'connected to the nearby T3 and such'.

If anything, the fact that we have these concerns and the T3 Nodes 'feel wrong and like places you would leave' is a sign that the design is working, not failing.

I still think T2 Nodes should be where we start to get a few crafting stations, though.

SmileGurney

Honestly...I don't like how restrictive the node system is with how few high tier buildings you are allowed to place. The whole thing is open to abuse, and shows how little people are able to cooperate with strangers. Traveling across half of Verra to find Tier3 smith is going to get boring fast.

Ludullu

SmileGurney wrote: »

Honestly...I don't like how restrictive the node system is with how few high tier buildings you are allowed to place. The whole thing is open to abuse, and shows how little people are able to cooperate with strangers. Traveling across half of Verra to find Tier3 smith is going to get boring fast.

Imo the answer to this is different election types and higher lvls of node. A full vassal system will have several nodes with way more buildings than what we have right now, while all those nodes will also have completely different election types, so the potential abusers won't exploit the system as badly.

Though that opinion is based on what I'm imagining the final setup to be. Who knows what it'll be in reality.

Azherae

SmileGurney wrote: »

Honestly...I don't like how restrictive the node system is with how few high tier buildings you are allowed to place. The whole thing is open to abuse, and shows how little people are able to cooperate with strangers. Traveling across half of Verra to find Tier3 smith is going to get boring fast.

Right now though, we have an 'Alpha' problem, moreso.

Lionhold is in the middle of everything.

I don't think I'd ever feel 'I want to do this crafting but I don't even want to travel as far as Lionhold', even as a person likely to live in a T3 node.

But Halcyon/New Aela are a bridge too far in both cases, literally.

I think the rest is intentional, to some extent, especially since Freeholds will handle a lot of the 'more common work' stations. And of course, whatever crafting stations spawn in PoIs and Pocket Dungeons.

Xeeg

tashka wrote: »

I think the node system planned for AoC is great, however after playing/testing for some time i have some major concerns. Problem is, for the system to work as intended, there need to be people in the world loyal to their nodes maybe even more than their guilds. Otherwise the world will degenerate into a few nodes with huge population with other nodes being abandoned, and as soon as the node goes through rough time a lot of people will just leave for greener pastures.

As far as I can tell, the biggest perk for being a citizen of a small node is to have a larger storage space in a lower pop area. Good for gatherers.

Vyllz

🔹 The Challenge: Why Would Players Stay Loyal to a Node?

The Ashes of Creation node system is an amazing concept, but without strong reasons to stay, players will flock to the most developed nodes. The issue of crafting stations not aligning with a player's progression is a real concern—if your node doesn't support your craft, you’re forced to spend most of your time elsewhere. This weakens community ties and turns nodes into temporary stepping stones instead of long-term homes.

🔹 Possible Solutions to Strengthen Node Loyalty

✅ 1. Personal Crafting Licenses – Allow citizens to craft within their node, even if their station isn’t fully upgraded. Higher-tier crafting stations would still provide faster processing, lower material costs, or additional perks, but at least players wouldn’t be locked out of their profession.

✅ 2. Citizen-Exclusive Perks – Introduce Citizen Buffs that reward loyalty. These could be:

Tax Discounts – The longer you stay, the lower your crafting taxes.
Exclusive Recipes – Some blueprints, upgrades, or dyes only available to long-term citizens.
Guild Influence – Higher citizen rank grants a vote on future node upgrades.

✅ 3. Freehold Expansion for Crafting – If nodes can’t always support every crafting station, allow dedicated artisans to invest in Freeholds that act as private crafting hubs. This would prevent players from abandoning their home nodes just because crafting facilities are limited.

✅ 4. Crafting Commissions & Trade Routes – If you must craft in another node, make the journey worthwhile. Introduce:

Caravan Crafting Runs – Guilds or solo crafters could transport materials and finished products between nodes for profit.
Commission Boards – Allow players to request crafting services remotely, so even if you can't craft in your node, you can still contribute to your community.

🔹 Final Thought: Balance Progression Without Forcing Players to Move
The Ashes devs need to find a middle ground where node specialization exists but doesn’t force players into a nomadic lifestyle. The node system should feel like home, not a pit stop on the way to a better location.

This is something that needs more testing, but if loyalty isn’t encouraged, we’ll likely see only a handful of powerful nodes while others remain underdeveloped.

Would love to hear from others—how would you encourage long-term node loyalty? 🏰🔥

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