Consensual PvP System in Ashes of Creation

The type of competitive imbalance we have at the moment encourages exploitative behavior, as players look for ways to manipulate mechanics and stats, rather than engage in fair and meaningful battles. Large guilds, hardcore players and zergs dominate, while solo players and small groups are left with no options.

At this point in the game development, Intrepid Studios has created a stunning world better than most mmorpgs out there, however the PvP system is fostering one of the most toxic, divisive and exhausting environments imaginable among players.
Let’s face it, right now, those who treat the game as if there’s no life outside of Verra have significant advantages over casual players. The result? Casual players are leaving already or will eventually leave, and when that happens, even the hardcore players will suffer. A PvP system that only benefits hardcore and zergs will collapse the game inevitably and the population will lessen affecting all participants including Intrepid.

It is my opinion that the best strategy for Ashes of Creation moving forward is a consensual PvP system that allows players to engage in combat when they feel adequately prepared, rather than forcing them into unwinnable encounters with the consequential anguish.

Please Intrepid allow players to opt-in when they are ready to fight, not when they’re forced.

Completely eliminate PvP zones and instead make the whole world PvP but only when the fight is consensual. This will also prevent in large scale exploit abuse and large-scale zerg dominance as individuals don’t mind if a guild is "the 8th wonder of the world" or a player "the last coca cola in the desert" as long as they can enjoy the game without someone coming and killing his or her character for no other reward than bragging rights, ego, glint and some materials.

All comments are welcome and appreciated.

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Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

In PvE, you have no idea when you are pulling a mob what new thing the developers could have added to it. The mob in question may have something that is completely new to the game, that jo other mob has ever had, thst players do not have access to.

I guess you prefer a one-time surprise over a, potentially, daily one. Even if the devs manage to add 100 completely unique abilities to mobs in each new expansion, that's still something you can only be surprised by once. While player builds have potentially thousands of combos, especially when player abilities/gear/environment are designed well enough.

I think this is similar to preferences in media spoiling. Some people like the surprise and never look into what they're about to experience, while others go as far as spoiling the entire movie for themselves just so they can know for sure that they gonna enjoy the experience. And afaik there's even been research about people enjoying media more after having that media spoiled to them, because they had no anxiety related to sudden twists or surprises, so they could just enjoy the ride.

I like learning everything about all the classes, gear and augments exactly because to me it's interesting what my opponent will use in any particular encounter. There's no "omg, this is something absolutely unseen" feeling, but there's always a "ahh, you went with this today, ok, let me think up a way to counter it" feeling.

I don't have any info about how either side of the pvx spectrum thinks about this kind of preference difference, but it does seem that pvers are close to your preference while pvpers are close to mine. Like, there's a reason why absolute majority of pvp games (irl ones included) barely ever change their basic rules. When both sides know exactly what those are - it's about the execution of actions, rather than sudden changes in what those actions may even be.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

Like, make up your mind Intrepid - are you aiming to be the second most played MMORPG in the west, or are you trying to be niche? Pick a side, and make decisions based on it.

i think this is simply Steven talking to the western audience. WoW was dominant in the west, while L2 was dominant in the east (CIS included). So Ashes would be a niche game for the ex-WoWers, while it would be potentially the next "for life" mmo to someone from the east, which would make it not so niche there.

But considering that majority of AoC's general audience is currently western (with its presentation being in english and servers in NA/EU), it's way easier to just present the game as niche, because that would let that audience know what kind of game it'll be for them.

Caww

Ludullu wrote: »

....It literally being built as a niche game. Steven has said so himself countless times at this point..../quote]

I just have a sense that the eventual financial crush of developing and maintaining a MMO as aspirational as AoC will require more revenue than a niche game will provide for a single (?) investor.

Ludullu

Caww wrote: »

I just have a sense that the eventual financial crush of developing and maintaining a MMO as aspirational as AoC will require more revenue than a niche game will provide for a single (?) investor.

Yes, there's always a risk of the investment failing. Steven knew that when he decided to create a niche mmo. It's his beloved risk/reward situation

Noaani

Ludullu wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

In PvE, you have no idea when you are pulling a mob what new thing the developers could have added to it. The mob in question may have something that is completely new to the game, that jo other mob has ever had, thst players do not have access to.

I guess you prefer a one-time surprise over a, potentially, daily one.

Yeah.

I was surprised with new mechanics more in any one given EQ2 expansion than I was in 4+ years of PvP in Archeage, or the time I was in BDO. The surprise in PvP is only a potential surprise, it usually doesn't materialize, in my experience.

Now, admittedly, Archeage had a meta that a lot of players didn't shift from much, but that is the vast majority of games. The more options you give the general public, the fewer they use.

I have never had a surprise of note due to different combinations of abilities. When you see any given player character of any given class, you have a list of what abilities they have access to (including gear and buffs from other players, where appropriate) - I assume they could have any combination on that list, and nothing off it.

With that in mind, there just isn't scope to be surprised in PvP, short of being jumped.

Noaani

Ludullu wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Like, make up your mind Intrepid - are you aiming to be the second most played MMORPG in the west, or are you trying to be niche? Pick a side, and make decisions based on it.

i think this is simply Steven talking to the western audience. WoW was dominant in the west, while L2 was dominant in the east (CIS included). So Ashes would be a niche game for the ex-WoWers, while it would be potentially the next "for life" mmo to someone from the east, which would make it not so niche there.

But considering that majority of AoC's general audience is currently western (with its presentation being in english and servers in NA/EU), it's way easier to just present the game as niche, because that would let that audience know what kind of game it'll be for them.

Well yeah - but that leaves Steven in the position where he is presenting Ashes as niche to his target audience, is building it feom a gameplay perspective as if it is only ever going to be niche, but is requiring a population that is mainstream.

You can word that differently if you like, but the inherent problem there remains.

Also, L2 is very niche in the east. It is barely played in Korea in relation to other Korean MMO's, and is all but unheard of in Japan, Taiwan and China. From talking to you, the only region it seems to not be is the CIS region - a region that is problematic for Intrepid to host servers in.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

Also, L2 is very niche in the east. It is barely played in Korea in relation to other Korean MMO's, and is all but unheard of in Japan, Taiwan and China. From talking to you, the only region it seems to not be is the CIS region - a region that is problematic for Intrepid to host servers in.

I was talking more about its popularity in mid-late 00s. While WoW was overtaking the west and barely anyone even heard about L2, in the east it was more popular.

Yes, now L2 became a mobile auto-battler with insane p2w, so any popularity it could've had went out the window. WoW's not too far behind, though it had a higher peak so even the fall still lands it very high as well.

Arya_Yeshe

Overall, it is so funny searching through many topics and see people call certain games as "niche", those games are simply good games and the games that aren't "niche" are just too generic to me and most of the times are also boring

Caww

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Overall, it is so funny searching through many topics and see people call certain games as "niche"......

I think that most of us are using the term to be polite when describing a game that is/was not popular, didn't have many players and would not be considered a large commercial success. Otherwise, we could just say it was a shitty game that no one liked but that has a harsh tone to it, so niche it is.

Arya_Yeshe

Caww wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Overall, it is so funny searching through many topics and see people call certain games as "niche"......

I think that most of us are using the term to be polite when describing a game that is/was not popular, didn't have many players and would not be considered a large commercial success. Otherwise, we could just say it was a shitty game that no one liked but that has a harsh tone to it, so niche it is.

maybe most people are a bad example about how a person should be then hahaha
since the games that are trying to appease a broader audience are turning to be the worst games

#reality-check

Noaani

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Caww wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Overall, it is so funny searching through many topics and see people call certain games as "niche"......

I think that most of us are using the term to be polite when describing a game that is/was not popular, didn't have many players and would not be considered a large commercial success. Otherwise, we could just say it was a shitty game that no one liked but that has a harsh tone to it, so niche it is.

maybe most people are a bad example about how a person should be then hahaha
since the games that are trying to appease a broader audience are turning to be the worst games

#reality-check

I mean, that is obviously subjective.

If you limit yourself to official servers, which is the better game to play today, WoW or Tera? ESO or SWG? FFXIV or Archeage?

You can argue all you want as to what any if these games used to be like, but you have no real argument in terms of what is best to play today.

That is the value of a popular game. It is a game you can stick with for many, many years. You can't do that in most niche games, because they don't last that long.

There is absolutely value in longevity. I would happily play a game that i consider a 7 or 8/10 but that I believe will last 10 years, than a game that I consider 9/10 that will only last 3.

The less generic you make a game, the smaller the audience you attract, and thus the shorter the duration you can keep the game live becomes.

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