Econ-Friday Ranting (a Reference Post)

Phase 2 is approaching (insert multiple Game of Thrones memes, whichever ones you like)

That means it's time for my group and I to do Econ Testing and give feedback. For this, I need some context on intent, but I don't hang out on Discord and even if I did, it'd be way faster for anyone on the team to read through my many assumptions in one place.

I basically need to know if the Ashes economy is supposed to feel like New World(EVE sorta), or like FF11/Throne and Liberty, to inform our testing approach.

FFXI/Throne and Liberty Method
Henceforth referred to as the 10K form (yes I will goldbold it every time, go gold, go bold).

Everything can be defined in average time units. The economy is given freedom but a control floor of some kind.
Players trade their 'time' through some medium of currency (or multiple currencies)
Specialization and complexity focus on personal enjoyment and spreading out the sources of products
Somehow, somewhere, economic velocity has a cap or a friction point (FF11: AH slots and resources, originally limited per-game-day purchases, TL: basically the same but also a relatively high hard cap on no-lifing it, after a while you burn money)

"New World" Method
Henceforth referred to as the UBI form (this color isn't too biased, right? If people prefer I'll change this from 'UBI' to 'AllTree')

The currency value of most things is effectively controlled by the Dev Team.
Players either ignore this or compete to sort of 'win the econ challenge that the Devs have set for this update/season'
Specialization and 'complexity' focus on hoarding and knowledge (and speculation on the hoards/knowledge of others)
Economic velocity is capped only by resource sinks and number of participants (for example New World's original low server CCU was part of this)

These two things are tested differently, for the sake of any discussion that might happen I'll try to explain why.

The reason I don't play EVE is that I knew for a long time that the Devs were basically just controlling the economy in a way that let them decide winners and losers very directly. Whether they did this or not was not important. They could. So I can't take EVE seriously, it markets itself as an Econ game, a simulator, but the 'stories' are controlled by the devs. Ashes is unclear about this. They have this option, but one might assume that in a game about player built Nodes and structures, they would not want to.

If Ashes uses the UBI form, the goal in testing would always be to 'win the Dev-set econ challenge minigame' and then use the winnings to get more permanent power as quickly as possible.

The reason I enjoy TL is that currently, niches exist and the Devs don't seem to interfere too much except in very global ways (we're seeing a bit of the Amazon Games style creeping in, but the underlying 10K basis mitigates some of this, leading to mostly grumbles rather than hoarding). So you know that basically anything that takes around an hour to get sells on the AH for 10 Lucent. If supply is too high, don't gather that thing, or push it through a different value pipeline (not all of these exist yet, for example Blue Armor Extracts from common farming grounds that should be going through some other pipeline like Furnishings since their 'Dissolve' option isn't at the 'correct' value and can't be set to that value without a UBI style intervention - which would almost certainly be bad for many reasons, I digress).

If Ashes uses the 10K form, the goal in testing would always be to 'find the appropriate activity niche' and then look toward others to build the interconnective relationships, seeking equilibrium and deprioritizing permanent power.

This is because 10K creates a form of economic 'drag' on anyone rushing to do anything not in their niche just because they can.

Since Econ testing is not a priority in Phase I, and the thing I assume Intrepid is testing is their data collection and visualization, this hasn't come up before, but as we move into Phase 2, I/we need to know how to approach it, especially if we're supposed to test the FTUE more than once, and definitely if the iterations don't wipe the server.

An Alpha always acts at least somewhat like UBI if one is trying to 'compete' or even just 'progress well'. I can definitely get my group to not focus on that, but if the game's intended style is UBI, then that would be the entirely incorrect method for testing for what my group is. Basically if we keep trying to play Ashes as if it is a 10K game and ignoring the signs of UBI approach 'because it's an Alpha', but the UBI style is the intended style, a lot of time is being wasted.

idk, maybe it's silly/overstepping/asking too much to be specifically given this answer, or even 'given this answer relative to any specific stand-up of the servers, but I know that IS does take their testing very seriously, so even just a shorthand somewhere (even just for PTR) of one vs the other would really help. We don't care if they change it every test/wipe/reroll request, as long as they give the data somewhere.

I hope that somehow this was clear enough to explain why this is important to us. If not, please help me by poking at it so that I can clarify it. I'm already in 'crossed fingers' mode because I can't just ask NCSoft/Amazon about their intent for TL atm, and I really want to help my group give the feedback we hope Intrepid wants so they're not doubled down on that particular irritation.

There's obviously more to this (there's always more), but it's all minutiae like droprates and player satisfaction feelings which have nothing in particular to do with the underlying 'way we test', so I'll leave it there.

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Comments

Xeeg

I think I am understanding what you are saying.

If the devs are reactively controlling spawn rates to control an economy, when you aren't seeing enough copper nodes its probably a clue to do something else and not continue searching for copper nodes because they might not be around until the existing copper in the economy gets sunk.

If the spawn rates are set in the game and aren't reacting to the players actions to stabilize the economy, when you aren't seeing enough copper nodes you might as well keep going because eventually the spawns will come back and you might get the fresh run.

It's pretty important to know which one we are dealing with or we are wasting a ton of time assuming systems that don't even exist. This is probably also part of the frustration players have when they say "not enough copper nodes". They don't have any idea about how the spawn rates are controlled, whether people are just farming them or whether the spawns or bugged.

In Rust( a game I've played alot) the spawn rates are a function of the active players in the area. The more players, the faster the spawns. This is why people love playing on high population Rust servers, the spawn rates are super fast and you can gear very quickly. Plus there are more people gathering and stuff so it makes PVP more abundant, and players have more loot when you kill them.

Ludullu

It sure as hell seems like caravans make the game a UBI one, cause whoever manages to run their caravans first and farthest will be able to buy out any and all mats they'd need, which kinda makes caravans the "controlled by the devs" part. And if you win that part - you win everything else, while you also lose the game, cause inflation fucks you.

Azherae

Ludullu wrote: »

It sure as hell seems like caravans make the game a UBI one, cause whoever manages to run their caravans first and farthest will be able to buy out any and all mats they'd need, which kinda makes caravans the "controlled by the devs" part. And if you win that part - you win everything else, while you also lose the game, cause inflation fucks you.

No, unfortunately Caravans are their own whole separate concern. They don't even equate to anything similar in the other games that have remotely similar econ models.

Even ArcheAge has Labor, so the gap is relatively large in terms of how to think about it. If possible, I'd exclude Caravans from any aspect of this question/request since the Econ FTUE can be viewed moreso as a race to being able to Caravan.

If you can't win that race, you're probably doomed as a group given how Caravan payoff works right now.

EDIT: Caravans right now are also definitely outside any early-game immersive/RP flow or incentive that would be reasonable to rely on (to keep consistent motivations between tests if that were necessary) so they're even more outside of the scope of this.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

If you can't win that race, you're probably doomed as a group given how Caravan payoff works right now.

EDIT: Caravans right now are also definitely outside any early-game immersive/RP flow or incentive that would be reasonable to rely on (to keep consistent motivations between tests if that were necessary) so they're even more outside of the scope of this.

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant with UBI, cause from what I've seen in global chat of Vyra - caravans are exactly the dev-driven race for economy. Because if you're the first one to say in global "buying zinc/copper/ruby 5s each" w/o it making a dent in your pocket - you've won the economic game, simply because some random joe that was lucky enough to stumble upon a copper node here or there would not care to keep it, but would definitely care to make ez 25s for it.

And as for incentives and viability, they're waaay too damn easy right now. With slower node progression, I'd imagine every player in a group can get 1g-worth of glint by the time we can run a caravan, and at that point no one would be able to even kill a caravan, considering that I had almost a full party of lvl13-17 people in standard lvl10+ gear hitting my caravan and it took them good 30min to bring me down.

And a full first caravan from New Aela to tropics gives you ~8g/1.5h, with a route that barely ever has any people on it.

And my general point here is that Intrepid seem to want us to use those caravans and then trade among ourselves. Steven even kinda confirmed it by saying "there's enough copper on the map, yall are just not trading". And if I DID understand what you mean by UBI correctly - this kinda fits that.

Azherae

Ludullu wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

If you can't win that race, you're probably doomed as a group given how Caravan payoff works right now.

EDIT: Caravans right now are also definitely outside any early-game immersive/RP flow or incentive that would be reasonable to rely on (to keep consistent motivations between tests if that were necessary) so they're even more outside of the scope of this.

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant with UBI, cause from what I've seen in global chat of Vyra - caravans are exactly the dev-driven race for economy. Because if you're the first one to say in global "buying zinc/copper/ruby 5s each" w/o it making a dent in your pocket - you've won the economic game, simply because some random joe that was lucky enough to stumble upon a copper node here or there would not care to keep it, but would definitely care to make ez 25s for it.

And as for incentives and viability, they're waaay too damn easy right now. With slower node progression, I'd imagine every player in a group can get 1g-worth of glint by the time we can run a caravan, and at that point no one would be able to even kill a caravan, considering that I had almost a full party of lvl13-17 people in standard lvl10+ gear hitting my caravan and it took them good 30min to bring me down.

And a full first caravan from New Aela to tropics gives you ~8g/1.5h, with a route that barely ever has any people on it.

And my general point here is that Intrepid seem to want us to use those caravans and then trade among ourselves. Steven even kinda confirmed it by saying "there's enough copper on the map, yall are just not trading". And if I DID understand what you mean by UBI correctly - this kinda fits that.

Yeah, I know, we're on Vyra too (that's a stretch since obv we're not doing much for Phase 1).

But I'm really really focused on testing, and Economy testing is very hard because you need to sort your incentives in order, or 'have everything ready at once'.

Neither is particularly easy to do.

So while I'm absolutely agreeing that Caravans are a huge 'sign' of UBI style gameplay, what if that suddenly changes or gets rebalanced to bring it closer to 10K?

I'm saying that I don't want to make assumptions, and I definitely don't want my group members making assumptions. It took me like 3 weeks just to get them 'through' all the TL ones because of previous experiences.

Without going into detail, the TL economy has changed meaningfully each of the times we touched it.

I think I told you that originally, Lithographs worked entirely differently than they do now. There's still some leftover 'cruft' in that game that we don't know if they're going to remove or rework. Point is, in a dynamic development environment, testing a complex system, assumptions bad.

Azherae

Been a while since this idea was relevant to bring up, but since this is the reference post I won't make a new one.

So for those tracking, I think we got the answer, though I'm hesitant to 'draw a conclusion from an indirect one', the last Dev Stream indicated that there will definitely be even more focus on Caravans, and that there will be 'Special Commodities' in farther naval ports.

For any remaining '10K' Econ 'fans', Throne and Liberty has moved considerably further in that direction and things are good over there. For the unfortunates who really want Ashes style combat with 10K style Economy, you'll probably have to wait a few more years for something else, my sympathies.

Vyllz

Azherae wrote: »

Phase 2 is approaching (insert multiple Game of Thrones memes, whichever ones you like)

That means it's time for my group and I to do Econ Testing and give feedback. For this, I need some context on intent, but I don't hang out on Discord and even if I did, it'd be way faster for anyone on the team to read through my many assumptions in one place.

I basically need to know if the Ashes economy is supposed to feel like New World(EVE sorta), or like FF11/Throne and Liberty, to inform our testing approach.

FFXI/Throne and Liberty Method
Henceforth referred to as the 10K form (yes I will goldbold it every time, go gold, go bold).
Everything can be defined in average time units. The economy is given freedom but a control floor of some kind.

Players trade their 'time' through some medium of currency (or multiple currencies)

Specialization and complexity focus on personal enjoyment and spreading out the sources of products

Somehow, somewhere, economic velocity has a cap or a friction point (FF11: AH slots and resources, originally limited per-game-day purchases, TL: basically the same but also a relatively high hard cap on no-lifing it, after a while you burn money)

"New World" Method
Henceforth referred to as the UBI form (this color isn't too biased, right? If people prefer I'll change this from 'UBI' to 'AllTree')
The currency value of most things is effectively controlled by the Dev Team.

Players either ignore this or compete to sort of 'win the econ challenge that the Devs have set for this update/season'

Specialization and 'complexity' focus on hoarding and knowledge (and speculation on the hoards/knowledge of others)

Economic velocity is capped only by resource sinks and number of participants (for example New World's original low server CCU was part of this)

These two things are tested differently, for the sake of any discussion that might happen I'll try to explain why.

The reason I don't play EVE is that I knew for a long time that the Devs were basically just controlling the economy in a way that let them decide winners and losers very directly. Whether they did this or not was not important. They could. So I can't take EVE seriously, it markets itself as an Econ game, a simulator, but the 'stories' are controlled by the devs. Ashes is unclear about this. They have this option, but one might assume that in a game about player built Nodes and structures, they would not want to.

If Ashes uses the UBI form, the goal in testing would always be to 'win the Dev-set econ challenge minigame' and then use the winnings to get more permanent power as quickly as possible.

The reason I enjoy TL is that currently, niches exist and the Devs don't seem to interfere too much except in very global ways (we're seeing a bit of the Amazon Games style creeping in, but the underlying 10K basis mitigates some of this, leading to mostly grumbles rather than hoarding). So you know that basically anything that takes around an hour to get sells on the AH for 10 Lucent. If supply is too high, don't gather that thing, or push it through a different value pipeline (not all of these exist yet, for example Blue Armor Extracts from common farming grounds that should be going through some other pipeline like Furnishings since their 'Dissolve' option isn't at the 'correct' value and can't be set to that value without a UBI style intervention - which would almost certainly be bad for many reasons, I digress).

If Ashes uses the 10K form, the goal in testing would always be to 'find the appropriate activity niche' and then look toward others to build the interconnective relationships, seeking equilibrium and deprioritizing permanent power.

This is because 10K creates a form of economic 'drag' on anyone rushing to do anything not in their niche just because they can.

Since Econ testing is not a priority in Phase I, and the thing I assume Intrepid is testing is their data collection and visualization, this hasn't come up before, but as we move into Phase 2, I/we need to know how to approach it, especially if we're supposed to test the FTUE more than once, and definitely if the iterations don't wipe the server.

An Alpha always acts at least somewhat like UBI if one is trying to 'compete' or even just 'progress well'. I can definitely get my group to not focus on that, but if the game's intended style is UBI, then that would be the entirely incorrect method for testing for what my group is. Basically if we keep trying to play Ashes as if it is a 10K game and ignoring the signs of UBI approach 'because it's an Alpha', but the UBI style is the intended style, a lot of time is being wasted.

idk, maybe it's silly/overstepping/asking too much to be specifically given this answer, or even 'given this answer relative to any specific stand-up of the servers, but I know that IS does take their testing very seriously, so even just a shorthand somewhere (even just for PTR) of one vs the other would really help. We don't care if they change it every test/wipe/reroll request, as long as they give the data somewhere.

I hope that somehow this was clear enough to explain why this is important to us. If not, please help me by poking at it so that I can clarify it. I'm already in 'crossed fingers' mode because I can't just ask NCSoft/Amazon about their intent for TL atm, and I really want to help my group give the feedback we hope Intrepid wants so they're not doubled down on that particular irritation.

There's obviously more to this (there's always more), but it's all minutiae like droprates and player satisfaction feelings which have nothing in particular to do with the underlying 'way we test', so I'll leave it there.

This is an excellent and very well structured question. I really appreciate the effort you put into breaking down the two economic models because this is exactly the type of discussion that helps the community and the devs align expectations.

From what has been shared officially, Ashes of Creation is clearly aiming to lean closer to what you describe as the 10K form, a player driven economy with decentralized control, heavily influenced by player behavior, regional markets, scarcity, supply chains, and social interdependence. Steven and the team have emphasized multiple times that they want the players' actions to be the driving force behind the economy, not developer intervention or seasonal resets.

Systems like local markets, caravans, limited fast travel, corruption penalties, and regional resource scarcity are designed specifically to create friction and force interconnectivity, which is core to the 10K approach you described.

That said, during Alpha and PTR phases, we may occasionally see UBI style adjustments or tweaks, not because that’s the intended design philosophy, but simply for testing purposes, to gather data, check systems, or stress specific loops.

So I’d say your instinct is correct. The long term vision of Ashes is much closer to the 10K economy with natural friction, niches, and specialization, not a developer-handled, controlled market. But during Alpha 2, there may still be UBI like conditions in place temporarily to allow proper iteration and data gathering.

Your structured feedback like this is exactly what Intrepid wants. Keep testing, keep pointing out these foundational economic questions, because this is what will help them refine the balance and keep the economy organic and player driven.

Azherae

What Ashes says it will be and what Ashes trends towards have been divergent for some time now, even within the context of 'it's an Alpha'.

Either way, in terms of the answer 'for the test', it seems that Ashes is aiming to be moreso like ArcheAge for some reason.

We are now heading into Phase 3 of Alpha-2 testing and I 'need the answer to this question' more than ever. Or rather, I need a clarification if the answer isn't UBI because I 'need' to convince my group members that it isn't.

Or y'know, just not, this game is not for everyone. It'd just be nice to know for certain-ish. Since everything is subject to change.

Azherae

I thank Intrepid for giving something that looks enough like an answer (10K) for the next Phase to mostly-convince my group members.

Econ Friday has rolled around again! To avoid making a new thread especially for another reference post I'll put an Econ Slots thing in this one to go with the above because my group wishes that I explain something from FF11. For those who are happy with the Economy of most MMORPGs of this era, there's no need to read it. For those who aren't, Intrepid has a thread for you. This post is only tangentially related and will lack a lot of context for brevity (I should use an infographic but that's less checkable/editable). The contents of this post are a historical rant about another game and are not about 'what we want to see in Ashes specifically.

Adventure Progression Slot #1:
The first thing you do or goal you pursue. FF11 simplifies this down to 'get some bronze or brass for a weapon'. Throne and Liberty uses 'get some uncommon materials for a new weapon'. In FF11, a 'Free Trade' game, someone can get the Bronze for you and you pay them. Sources: Worms (Bronze and Tin Ore), Goblins, mining, Smithing Guild (limited). Everyone else, to the Auction House! (almost immediately available, physical location in FF11). Some vendors also sell gear for prices meaningfully above what most players would sell them for on Auction.

Currency Progression Slot #1:
The first alternate path. Don't want to fight worms or look up quests? Go gather raw currency! Beastmen drop 10-20 gil each, quests will get you there, you don't need to equip a new weapon until level 7 anyway. By then you can buy some Bronze or a whole premade weapon. Also, technically, get Signet, fight things, get Crystals, sell them.

Artisan Progression Slot #1:
Get signet. Fight anything. Get Crystals. Learn which Crystal is used for the Artisanship you want to do most often, fight more of what drops them. Crystals only drop from things that give you/your group exp and Crystal drops are sorta per mob not per combat participant. Make food, thread and ingots, even a weapon, cloak or hat!

Adventure Consumption Slot #1:
Food! Effort in, delicious food out. Fire Crystals, Rabbit Meat, Currency (to buy salt and marjoram). In FF11 you can craft anywhere so they make you buy or stockpile the spices, to connect you to the world. In TL you can carry huge amounts but can only craft in specific spots. Both anchors work.

Currency Consumption Slot #1:
See above. Also, gathering tools. At this stage in FF11 since only Beastmen drop currency, and it's fairly minimal, the Auction House Taxes are enough to drive the currency inflation down. In TL the Taxes are doing twice the work, deflating the Lucent and partially paying NCSoft. In both games the goal is the highest reasonable Economic Velocity possible to go through that Auction House (FF11 uses Crystals, hundreds of transactions per day, eventually from 40 gil to 200+ gil)

Artisan Consumption Slot #1:
Ammunition and Gathering Tools in FF11. Item Trait rolls/attempts in TL. Crystals themselves are constantly consumed during this process as well, so this completes the 'first loop'.

Materials, currency, and Crystals are all gathered and pushed through the Auction House. Largely unavoidable artisanship products, counterinflation pressure, and decent food boosts. Crystals come and go with every battle and every 'synthesis'. There is no 'Questing Player' component to the Adventure Progression slot other than Currency, and repeatable quests usually have a second 'form' which is less rewarding monetarily.

Adventure Progression Slot #2:
Made yourself some gear or bought it either from others or for exorbitant prices? Push through to level 9 and get yourself some Brass gear! Know a Goldsmith who has been making all those Brass Ingots with no clear purpose until now? Add Brass to your Bronze Dagger and now you have a Brass one (you hope, and maybe not you personally). Go out there and hit more Beastmen! They drop Beastcoins which also melt down to Bronze (but this is rare). This is the level where 'Rare' and 'EX' tags start to appear on a few things. Rare simply means you can only hold one, so even if you want to 'camp' a Notorious Monster (Elite) you can't benefit unless you sell off the previous. Later on, some early game items were given these tags to prevent high level players monopolizing them because ofc they did. Newbies are taking over/assisting your old slot in the Earth Crystal and Rabbit Meat markets.

Currency Progression Slot #2:
Level 7+ is around the point where a few things that could actually be vendored for a few more gil (often about the same as Beastman amounts) drop about 17% of the time from random mobs. But nearly no one wants to vendor those things because everyone wants to use them for their endless need for things like Brass Flowerpots, sword grips, quests, and crafting material stockpiles. Still, you definitely can. The currency drops from Beastmen haven't gone up, but they can be killed more quickly so that helps, you just get less exp. Not 'less compared to your exp to next level. Just less. You're stronger than many of them now and must seek stronger ones.

Artisan Progression Slot #2:
You can grab your tools and venture into more areas where you can actually mine and log and harvest plants, since it's safer now. Or if you're an Alchemist you split your time between gathering things to make stuff with, and gathering the Crystals to make those things, because they are not often in the same place/same mob.

Adventure Consumption Slot #2:
Same as before. The food is better, the ammo is stronger. You can continue to do without it, but you're obviously much less effective. By now you might be carrying a potion for emergencies, these really weren't worth it for anything else, they were barely worth it for what they actually did. So new ingredients go in, perhaps, and slightly more effective food 'comes out'.

Currency Consumption Slot #2:
So many small things you want to decorate your house or prepare to grow plants. You don't want to be that person whose Mog House just has a bucket in the corner, do you? Splurge! Get multiple buckets! (this is a joke, but only because Buckets aren't a gil-sink). Auction House fees are handling most of the rest, as the playerbase advances, so does the Economic Velocity (usually).

Artisan Consumption Slot #2:
Broken pickaxes, broken sickles, broken fishing rods (at least these can be repaired... hopefully). Furniture that is definitely staying in people's houses forever now, and the occasional deconstruction or crafting failure on an upgrade. The rest goes into ammunition. This slot dies off as the playerbase matures, but in FF11 all miners use the same Pickaxes, so never entirely.

Adventure Progression Slot #3:
You're level 11. Time for the big leagues. "The Dunes" (for most, back then). Eventually was streamlined by making the game more Themepark and soloish. But we're talking about the late 00's here. Where you went for the fastest exp. The place you skipped if you found any of the other nine relevant zones to be comfortable/challenging/fun. The dunes are a place of pain, waiting around, and uncoordinated parties, with mostly the same drops as before, and some deeply unprofitable but dangerous enemies. Come back later solo to protect your juniors from them in the deeper areas, they often don't want to fight them in party here anyway! Your gear is coming from the Auction Houses back in your hometown with almost no exceptions. Money is scarce if you only push through here. Other places provide a laundry list of interconnected economic points though.

Currency Progression Slot #3:
New areas, a few new Quests, new Beastmen to get a few coin from, and probably your economic Niche. Assuming you enjoy anything about the game other than 'getting more levels', either someone is going to pay you for it, or you can use it to not need to pay other people (note that Currency Progression slot data isn't about currency faucets, but generally Currency Consumption slot data will be about currency sinks. Since modern games (including TL as of this writing) generally lack this 'economic Niche' concept, it's hard to explain, but just know that yes, many people did find all possible activities for gaining money boring. They didn't want to 'farm' for Beeswax, they didn't want to gather seeds and grow plants, they didn't want to craft, they didn't want to quest. They just wanted to advance, and they needed money. Not sure what to advise about those people, the only thing that ever seems to placate them is handouts or 'afk progression' (bias here).

Artisan Progression Slot #3:
In the old days? The pain point, the bottleneck, the stopgap. Because those who wanted to level stopped bringing back the stuff you needed to level with. You need Zinc and Bronze Ores? Sorry, worms are a threat to someone other than the Tank in party so we're not fighting 'em. You want Fire Crystals? Goblins HURT tho, and Lizards have Petrify. At this point you needed to make friends. Reliable friends. Whether or not you fought alongside them, you needed people who were aiming beyond the absolute basic easiest content, or you'd never have Dhalmel Meat, Fire Crystals, or Iron Ore. Slime Oil? Are you CRAZY? Have you seen what Slimes DO to people?

Adventure Consumption Slot #3:
Same old. Food, Ammunition, Potions... wait... what's that? Silent Oil? For sneaking deep into enemy territory past dangerous enemies that aggro by sound? That sounds great, where can I... Slime Oil, you say? {Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.} But the 'best' players always had food, a potion or two, and something like this. Mages had to fork out for the spell scroll instead, which is more of a...

Currency Consumption Slot #3:
Mages need better spells, Tanks need better gear. It was a simple time. It was terrible. Yet it mostly worked, or probably moreso everyone who hated it quit. I personally think this method of using this slot this way is so hated that it's almost better to use Progression Currency separately. Throne and Liberty ties all sorts of Progression options to that currency, and you can never take those back (since you can't sell gear you've improved or get the money back for skills you level up). For any worries, Ashes does have a solution! If only we could make sure everyone needed to care about something in their environment, like a 'Node' or something. Perhaps some sort of 'tax'.

Artisan Consumption Slot #3:
You're still buying the occasional thing from a vendor for your work. In fact we're even racing to the limited supply from the Artisan Guild shops. Why is it limited? No, not just to make you miserable, it's to stop that person who attempts to corner and freeze the market, obviously. You know. That person. None of us like th-- oh wait, you're not that person, are you? Whew, good. Anyway, the prices of stuff in that shop go up if they're being bought out first thing every game day (which they are). Better start going to get them yourself, you're strong enough now, right? Some Artisan paths make mostly consumables, others upgrade old things into new stronger things, and of course, occasionally fail. Don't worry, most of those things 'disappear' a bit later.

Adventure Progression Slot #4:
Finally! A hub City! I had to walk fifteen malms to get here! There were Raptors, people! One nearly... anyway, where's everybody at, I need even more gear and even more levels! Oh, we're fighting Crabs... again? But only after Worms? I thought we didn't fight Worms in party because... ok nvm, worms it is. We're good players now... I think. After this we'll go into this dungeonish place and fight more Goblins since we got good at those back in the latter part of the Dunes. (if you followed this path as fast as possible you were undergeared and underprepared, but at least now you had the important thing, access to a hundred or so other people who took a different path and therefore knew things you didn't. One way or another this would lead to some advancement).

Currency Progression Slot #4:
At least now that you're fighting new things, and everyone's spread out a bit, there's less pressure on your niche, even less pressure on the 'people who are just pushing and actually lack a niche'. And that tower IS full of Goblins and therefore Fire Crystals... To be clear, this worked because people did spread out, they just didn't all talk about it. This was level 20+.

Artisan Progression Slot #4:
Finally, you can level and gather things that help your crafting (regardless of if you went to the hub City or not, though you might need to go there to sell things maybe). Or the demand for something you can make went up so you get to craft more, and more specialization points have appeared so you're not competing with literally everyone else.

Adventure Consumption Slot #4:
Finally you can just coast along on mostly cheap food! But now you need to do missions for your country. And that requires you to gather Crystals. You also need a Chocobo License, which is more time-work. And finally, you absolutely must update your gear now. You're out of crabs to bully, if you want to adventure with others, nearly everything has at least some chance to kill you if you don't gear up. This was true before, but this is the real end of the line for almost everyone, you can't get past here in mostly level 7 gear. Not even a purely backline healer should risk that once out of the Crab barrel. So once again...

Currency Consumption Slot #4:
Have you seen what they are charging for better gear in those shops in Jeuno? Are they insane? Good thing you know a guy. Or are brave enough to blindly message the name you see on the sales history in the Auction House to ask them to personally make you some gear. This is the point where it's less Consumption and moreso 'divergence'. The money isn't going straight to a sink, it's spreading out to many others who all still have many of the same sinks, and the Auction House fees are getting up there too, certainly compared to the relative pittance you are getting from Goblins and such, which seems to have barely kept pace, or worse, not at all.

Artisan Consumption Slot #4:
At this point things shift. It's less about a true consumption slot and more about the fact that diversity is now such a real thing that the inputs to the system (which mainly haven't increased as a whole, the same 'number of players' is still here) are 'automatically' evened out with all the necessities. We reached 'Artisan Consumption Saturation' around this point, but we also got 'Guild Contracts' to earn Guild Points for our officially-affiliated Artisanship guild by making things and just handing them over. This was so optional that it could swing from being a powerful sink to 'basically affecting nothing' on any given day, but that's where the 10K economy comes in. If getting your Guild Points is expensive today, don't do it. Optional. If it's cheap because of oversupply. Do it, Remove Supply. The Adventurers don't need to pay attention to if their stuff will sell, they will just relist it for less and it will get bought on the day when the Artisans need it, and off it goes, out of the Economy.

it's also at this point that things start to get complicated beyond what most non-Econ players care about, beyond what some Econ players understand, and where non-Econ Designers start to have to worry that they're going to cause trouble. Because something has created a balance. In FF11 it is a 'self-regulating balance', and one that relies almost entirely on player behaviour (the Guild Item hand-ins are, again, really optional). Beyond here, most people need the Whiteboard. The serious players need the Spreadsheet (or perfect recall memory). The Designers need Spreadsheets and other tools. The explanation would take another essay.

But the above is enough for most people who care to be able to point at a game and say 'this is why this feeling isn't working for me, this macro-slot isn't working right'. And Artisans can point at the Micro-slot that applies to their profession within the Macro-slot and debate if it is failing or if the problem is somewhere else.

For a simple example, one of the biggest complaints of my group about Ashes is that Artisan Progression Slot #3 seems to start way too early. The game attempts to solve this by having Gatherers and Processors, but this doesn't solve anything. Adventurers are going out to level, not bringing back materials for people to craft with. Artisans are going out to get materials that only other Artisans need and not progressing toward more materials. And no one is discovering any personal niches at all.

A similar complaint about Throne and Liberty is that, as mentioned, Currency Progression Slot #3 basically doesn't exist anymore. Since basically the only thing mobs really 'drop' is gear, and the demand for mid-tier gear will always be lower even with the Traiting system, getting drops that you can't personally use doesn't help your financial situation at all even if you specialize. Our entire concept of 'if TL will fix this' currently hinges on the hope that they understand that at least for level 40+ content/areas, they actually need to fix it or they will either bleed off less invested players or fall into that constant invalidation of old gear and content.

Both those examples are huge, 'Whiteboard tier' problems that don't even get into the Spreadsheets that determine 'why only Carphin matters' or 'the complete abandonment of Saurodoma Island'.

But for people who think 'from this basis', the holes are easy to see almost before you begin. We don't need 'treasure boxes' because those aren't a Niche, they're free loot on a hypercompetitive fast-track. We don't need 'a whole new pile of rare gatherables each used to make one cool new item if you happen to be really geared or familiar with the game'.

Both games need 'Things in the open world that you do only because no one else is interested or because you personally like it'. Both games have 'things that you can only do at certain times' which is definitely also an important and fun component of Currency Progression but it's trying to be Currency Progression Slot #4 without the supporting Slot #3. In order to not have everyone pile into X area as soon as Y Condition is met, they have to have something else they would rather be doing, and that 'something else' has to be either 'a different X area with a related/codependent Y Condition' or an actual Niche.

In Ashes this is worse because no Fast Travel. I'm not sure who in this age still believes that geographical distance can create gameplay niches by itself (not even meant to imply that the Intrepid team believes this) but since we know it doesn't, it shouldn't be surprising to us that when the game doesn't have its Niches in yet, 'everyone goes to Carphin'.

FF11 was 'blessed' by either intentional or accidental positive outcomes for this. They somehow hit the perfect storm of niches from the start. This one isn't bias, it's a Whiteboard worth of interconnected minutiae that carried the game's Economy even through the times when a lot of the actual moment-to-moment of it was quite bad.

So Ashes 'has no reason not to go to Carphin/Highwayman Hills' and TL has no 'Avolos spawns at night in Manawastes', both games are early, but by comparison to FF11 the main takeaway on that point is... Not everyone rushed to Jeuno(Hub City), not everyone fought more Crabs (Qufim Island). And we're talking about Adventurers, who did exactly that. They adventured, and they brought back things, and then they (or someone else) also Crafted. And it wasn't 'a waste of their time', not because 'it was perfectly efficient', but because the Economy style meant that there was no such thing as perfectly efficient.

Well, for anyone who actually read through all that, I salute you!

It's just so I can reference things like "Lack of Currency Consumption Slot #4:" in conversation though. Eventually I have to write even more for Micro-slots, because if not here, then I either have to scatter these through stuff with way too much preamble... or give up.

I still want an awesome MMORPG. I don't want to give up.

Keep it up, Intrepid Team.

Depraved

Azherae wrote: »

I thank Intrepid for giving something that looks enough like an answer (10K) for the next Phase to mostly-convince my group members.

Econ Friday has rolled around again! To avoid making a new thread especially for another reference post I'll put an Econ Slots thing in this one to go with the above because my group wishes that I explain something from FF11. For those who are happy with the Economy of most MMORPGs of this era, there's no need to read it. For those who aren't, Intrepid has a thread for you. This post is only tangentially related and will lack a lot of context for brevity (I should use an infographic but that's less checkable/editable). The contents of this post are a historical rant about another game and are not about 'what we want to see in Ashes specifically.

Adventure Progression Slot #1:
The first thing you do or goal you pursue. FF11 simplifies this down to 'get some bronze or brass for a weapon'. Throne and Liberty uses 'get some uncommon materials for a new weapon'. In FF11, a 'Free Trade' game, someone can get the Bronze for you and you pay them. Sources: Worms (Bronze and Tin Ore), Goblins, mining, Smithing Guild (limited). Everyone else, to the Auction House! (almost immediately available, physical location in FF11). Some vendors also sell gear for prices meaningfully above what most players would sell them for on Auction.

Currency Progression Slot #1:
The first alternate path. Don't want to fight worms or look up quests? Go gather raw currency! Beastmen drop 10-20 gil each, quests will get you there, you don't need to equip a new weapon until level 7 anyway. By then you can buy some Bronze or a whole premade weapon. Also, technically, get Signet, fight things, get Crystals, sell them.

Artisan Progression Slot #1:
Get signet. Fight anything. Get Crystals. Learn which Crystal is used for the Artisanship you want to do most often, fight more of what drops them. Crystals only drop from things that give you/your group exp and Crystal drops are sorta per mob not per combat participant. Make food, thread and ingots, even a weapon, cloak or hat!

Adventure Consumption Slot #1:
Food! Effort in, delicious food out. Fire Crystals, Rabbit Meat, Currency (to buy salt and marjoram). In FF11 you can craft anywhere so they make you buy or stockpile the spices, to connect you to the world. In TL you can carry huge amounts but can only craft in specific spots. Both anchors work.

Currency Consumption Slot #1:
See above. Also, gathering tools. At this stage in FF11 since only Beastmen drop currency, and it's fairly minimal, the Auction House Taxes are enough to drive the currency inflation down. In TL the Taxes are doing twice the work, deflating the Lucent and partially paying NCSoft. In both games the goal is the highest reasonable Economic Velocity possible to go through that Auction House (FF11 uses Crystals, hundreds of transactions per day, eventually from 40 gil to 200+ gil)

Artisan Consumption Slot #1:
Ammunition and Gathering Tools in FF11. Item Trait rolls/attempts in TL. Crystals themselves are constantly consumed during this process as well, so this completes the 'first loop'.

Materials, currency, and Crystals are all gathered and pushed through the Auction House. Largely unavoidable artisanship products, counterinflation pressure, and decent food boosts. Crystals come and go with every battle and every 'synthesis'. There is no 'Questing Player' component to the Adventure Progression slot other than Currency, and repeatable quests usually have a second 'form' which is less rewarding monetarily.

Adventure Progression Slot #2:
Made yourself some gear or bought it either from others or for exorbitant prices? Push through to level 9 and get yourself some Brass gear! Know a Goldsmith who has been making all those Brass Ingots with no clear purpose until now? Add Brass to your Bronze Dagger and now you have a Brass one (you hope, and maybe not you personally). Go out there and hit more Beastmen! They drop Beastcoins which also melt down to Bronze (but this is rare). This is the level where 'Rare' and 'EX' tags start to appear on a few things. Rare simply means you can only hold one, so even if you want to 'camp' a Notorious Monster (Elite) you can't benefit unless you sell off the previous. Later on, some early game items were given these tags to prevent high level players monopolizing them because ofc they did. Newbies are taking over/assisting your old slot in the Earth Crystal and Rabbit Meat markets.

Currency Progression Slot #2:
Level 7+ is around the point where a few things that could actually be vendored for a few more gil (often about the same as Beastman amounts) drop about 17% of the time from random mobs. But nearly no one wants to vendor those things because everyone wants to use them for their endless need for things like Brass Flowerpots, sword grips, quests, and crafting material stockpiles. Still, you definitely can. The currency drops from Beastmen haven't gone up, but they can be killed more quickly so that helps, you just get less exp. Not 'less compared to your exp to next level. Just less. You're stronger than many of them now and must seek stronger ones.

Artisan Progression Slot #2:
You can grab your tools and venture into more areas where you can actually mine and log and harvest plants, since it's safer now. Or if you're an Alchemist you split your time between gathering things to make stuff with, and gathering the Crystals to make those things, because they are not often in the same place/same mob.

Adventure Consumption Slot #2:
Same as before. The food is better, the ammo is stronger. You can continue to do without it, but you're obviously much less effective. By now you might be carrying a potion for emergencies, these really weren't worth it for anything else, they were barely worth it for what they actually did. So new ingredients go in, perhaps, and slightly more effective food 'comes out'.

Currency Consumption Slot #2:
So many small things you want to decorate your house or prepare to grow plants. You don't want to be that person whose Mog House just has a bucket in the corner, do you? Splurge! Get multiple buckets! (this is a joke, but only because Buckets aren't a gil-sink). Auction House fees are handling most of the rest, as the playerbase advances, so does the Economic Velocity (usually).

Artisan Consumption Slot #2:
Broken pickaxes, broken sickles, broken fishing rods (at least these can be repaired... hopefully). Furniture that is definitely staying in people's houses forever now, and the occasional deconstruction or crafting failure on an upgrade. The rest goes into ammunition. This slot dies off as the playerbase matures, but in FF11 all miners use the same Pickaxes, so never entirely.

Adventure Progression Slot #3:
You're level 11. Time for the big leagues. "The Dunes" (for most, back then). Eventually was streamlined by making the game more Themepark and soloish. But we're talking about the late 00's here. Where you went for the fastest exp. The place you skipped if you found any of the other nine relevant zones to be comfortable/challenging/fun. The dunes are a place of pain, waiting around, and uncoordinated parties, with mostly the same drops as before, and some deeply unprofitable but dangerous enemies. Come back later solo to protect your juniors from them in the deeper areas, they often don't want to fight them in party here anyway! Your gear is coming from the Auction Houses back in your hometown with almost no exceptions. Money is scarce if you only push through here. Other places provide a laundry list of interconnected economic points though.

Currency Progression Slot #3:
New areas, a few new Quests, new Beastmen to get a few coin from, and probably your economic Niche. Assuming you enjoy anything about the game other than 'getting more levels', either someone is going to pay you for it, or you can use it to not need to pay other people (note that Currency Progression slot data isn't about currency faucets, but generally Currency Consumption slot data will be about currency sinks. Since modern games (including TL as of this writing) generally lack this 'economic Niche' concept, it's hard to explain, but just know that yes, many people did find all possible activities for gaining money boring. They didn't want to 'farm' for Beeswax, they didn't want to gather seeds and grow plants, they didn't want to craft, they didn't want to quest. They just wanted to advance, and they needed money. Not sure what to advise about those people, the only thing that ever seems to placate them is handouts or 'afk progression' (bias here).

Artisan Progression Slot #3:
In the old days? The pain point, the bottleneck, the stopgap. Because those who wanted to level stopped bringing back the stuff you needed to level with. You need Zinc and Bronze Ores? Sorry, worms are a threat to someone other than the Tank in party so we're not fighting 'em. You want Fire Crystals? Goblins HURT tho, and Lizards have Petrify. At this point you needed to make friends. Reliable friends. Whether or not you fought alongside them, you needed people who were aiming beyond the absolute basic easiest content, or you'd never have Dhalmel Meat, Fire Crystals, or Iron Ore. Slime Oil? Are you CRAZY? Have you seen what Slimes DO to people?

Adventure Consumption Slot #3:
Same old. Food, Ammunition, Potions... wait... what's that? Silent Oil? For sneaking deep into enemy territory past dangerous enemies that aggro by sound? That sounds great, where can I... Slime Oil, you say? {Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.} But the 'best' players always had food, a potion or two, and something like this. Mages had to fork out for the spell scroll instead, which is more of a...

Currency Consumption Slot #3:
Mages need better spells, Tanks need better gear. It was a simple time. It was terrible. Yet it mostly worked, or probably moreso everyone who hated it quit. I personally think this method of using this slot this way is so hated that it's almost better to use Progression Currency separately. Throne and Liberty ties all sorts of Progression options to that currency, and you can never take those back (since you can't sell gear you've improved or get the money back for skills you level up). For any worries, Ashes does have a solution! If only we could make sure everyone needed to care about something in their environment, like a 'Node' or something. Perhaps some sort of 'tax'.

Artisan Consumption Slot #3:
You're still buying the occasional thing from a vendor for your work. In fact we're even racing to the limited supply from the Artisan Guild shops. Why is it limited? No, not just to make you miserable, it's to stop that person who attempts to corner and freeze the market, obviously. You know. That person. None of us like th-- oh wait, you're not that person, are you? Whew, good. Anyway, the prices of stuff in that shop go up if they're being bought out first thing every game day (which they are). Better start going to get them yourself, you're strong enough now, right? Some Artisan paths make mostly consumables, others upgrade old things into new stronger things, and of course, occasionally fail. Don't worry, most of those things 'disappear' a bit later.

Adventure Progression Slot #4:
Finally! A hub City! I had to walk fifteen malms to get here! There were Raptors, people! One nearly... anyway, where's everybody at, I need even more gear and even more levels! Oh, we're fighting Crabs... again? But only after Worms? I thought we didn't fight Worms in party because... ok nvm, worms it is. We're good players now... I think. After this we'll go into this dungeonish place and fight more Goblins since we got good at those back in the latter part of the Dunes. (if you followed this path as fast as possible you were undergeared and underprepared, but at least now you had the important thing, access to a hundred or so other people who took a different path and therefore knew things you didn't. One way or another this would lead to some advancement).

Currency Progression Slot #4:
At least now that you're fighting new things, and everyone's spread out a bit, there's less pressure on your niche, even less pressure on the 'people who are just pushing and actually lack a niche'. And that tower IS full of Goblins and therefore Fire Crystals... To be clear, this worked because people did spread out, they just didn't all talk about it. This was level 20+.

Artisan Progression Slot #4:
Finally, you can level and gather things that help your crafting (regardless of if you went to the hub City or not, though you might need to go there to sell things maybe). Or the demand for something you can make went up so you get to craft more, and more specialization points have appeared so you're not competing with literally everyone else.

Adventure Consumption Slot #4:
Finally you can just coast along on mostly cheap food! But now you need to do missions for your country. And that requires you to gather Crystals. You also need a Chocobo License, which is more time-work. And finally, you absolutely must update your gear now. You're out of crabs to bully, if you want to adventure with others, nearly everything has at least some chance to kill you if you don't gear up. This was true before, but this is the real end of the line for almost everyone, you can't get past here in mostly level 7 gear. Not even a purely backline healer should risk that once out of the Crab barrel. So once again...

Currency Consumption Slot #4:
Have you seen what they are charging for better gear in those shops in Jeuno? Are they insane? Good thing you know a guy. Or are brave enough to blindly message the name you see on the sales history in the Auction House to ask them to personally make you some gear. This is the point where it's less Consumption and moreso 'divergence'. The money isn't going straight to a sink, it's spreading out to many others who all still have many of the same sinks, and the Auction House fees are getting up there too, certainly compared to the relative pittance you are getting from Goblins and such, which seems to have barely kept pace, or worse, not at all.

Artisan Consumption Slot #4:
At this point things shift. It's less about a true consumption slot and more about the fact that diversity is now such a real thing that the inputs to the system (which mainly haven't increased as a whole, the same 'number of players' is still here) are 'automatically' evened out with all the necessities. We reached 'Artisan Consumption Saturation' around this point, but we also got 'Guild Contracts' to earn Guild Points for our officially-affiliated Artisanship guild by making things and just handing them over. This was so optional that it could swing from being a powerful sink to 'basically affecting nothing' on any given day, but that's where the 10K economy comes in. If getting your Guild Points is expensive today, don't do it. Optional. If it's cheap because of oversupply. Do it, Remove Supply. The Adventurers don't need to pay attention to if their stuff will sell, they will just relist it for less and it will get bought on the day when the Artisans need it, and off it goes, out of the Economy.

it's also at this point that things start to get complicated beyond what most non-Econ players care about, beyond what some Econ players understand, and where non-Econ Designers start to have to worry that they're going to cause trouble. Because something has created a balance. In FF11 it is a 'self-regulating balance', and one that relies almost entirely on player behaviour (the Guild Item hand-ins are, again, really optional). Beyond here, most people need the Whiteboard. The serious players need the Spreadsheet (or perfect recall memory). The Designers need Spreadsheets and other tools. The explanation would take another essay.

But the above is enough for most people who care to be able to point at a game and say 'this is why this feeling isn't working for me, this macro-slot isn't working right'. And Artisans can point at the Micro-slot that applies to their profession within the Macro-slot and debate if it is failing or if the problem is somewhere else.

For a simple example, one of the biggest complaints of my group about Ashes is that Artisan Progression Slot #3 seems to start way too early. The game attempts to solve this by having Gatherers and Processors, but this doesn't solve anything. Adventurers are going out to level, not bringing back materials for people to craft with. Artisans are going out to get materials that only other Artisans need and not progressing toward more materials. And no one is discovering any personal niches at all.

A similar complaint about Throne and Liberty is that, as mentioned, Currency Progression Slot #3 basically doesn't exist anymore. Since basically the only thing mobs really 'drop' is gear, and the demand for mid-tier gear will always be lower even with the Traiting system, getting drops that you can't personally use doesn't help your financial situation at all even if you specialize. Our entire concept of 'if TL will fix this' currently hinges on the hope that they understand that at least for level 40+ content/areas, they actually need to fix it or they will either bleed off less invested players or fall into that constant invalidation of old gear and content.

Both those examples are huge, 'Whiteboard tier' problems that don't even get into the Spreadsheets that determine 'why only Carphin matters' or 'the complete abandonment of Saurodoma Island'.

But for people who think 'from this basis', the holes are easy to see almost before you begin. We don't need 'treasure boxes' because those aren't a Niche, they're free loot on a hypercompetitive fast-track. We don't need 'a whole new pile of rare gatherables each used to make one cool new item if you happen to be really geared or familiar with the game'.

Both games need 'Things in the open world that you do only because no one else is interested or because you personally like it'. Both games have 'things that you can only do at certain times' which is definitely also an important and fun component of Currency Progression but it's trying to be Currency Progression Slot #4 without the supporting Slot #3. In order to not have everyone pile into X area as soon as Y Condition is met, they have to have something else they would rather be doing, and that 'something else' has to be either 'a different X area with a related/codependent Y Condition' or an actual Niche.

In Ashes this is worse because no Fast Travel. I'm not sure who in this age still believes that geographical distance can create gameplay niches by itself (not even meant to imply that the Intrepid team believes this) but since we know it doesn't, it shouldn't be surprising to us that when the game doesn't have its Niches in yet, 'everyone goes to Carphin'.

FF11 was 'blessed' by either intentional or accidental positive outcomes for this. They somehow hit the perfect storm of niches from the start. This one isn't bias, it's a Whiteboard worth of interconnected minutiae that carried the game's Economy even through the times when a lot of the actual moment-to-moment of it was quite bad.

So Ashes 'has no reason not to go to Carphin/Highwayman Hills' and TL has no 'Avolos spawns at night in Manawastes', both games are early, but by comparison to FF11 the main takeaway on that point is... Not everyone rushed to Jeuno(Hub City), not everyone fought more Crabs (Qufim Island). And we're talking about Adventurers, who did exactly that. They adventured, and they brought back things, and then they (or someone else) also Crafted. And it wasn't 'a waste of their time', not because 'it was perfectly efficient', but because the Economy style meant that there was no such thing as perfectly efficient.

Well, for anyone who actually read through all that, I salute you!

It's just so I can reference things like "Lack of Currency Consumption Slot #4:" in conversation though. Eventually I have to write even more for Micro-slots, because if not here, then I either have to scatter these through stuff with way too much preamble... or give up.

I still want an awesome MMORPG. I don't want to give up.

Keep it up, Intrepid Team.

what o-o

Laetitian

In Ashes this is worse because no Fast Travel. I'm not sure who in this age still believes that geographical distance can create gameplay niches by itself (not even meant to imply that the Intrepid team believes this) but since we know it doesn't, it shouldn't be surprising to us that when the game doesn't have its Niches in yet, 'everyone goes to Carphin'.

Can you summarise what you would propose as a solution to this, based on your preferred applicable systems?

My guess would be something like "you can only mine/process/craft these types of goods in these select areas that aren't Carphin, therefore those areas become known hubs for those types of goods."

Or perhaps by tying certain qualifications to individual, highly specialised, players? Where no one can specialise into everything that's in demand, or even a tenth of all the in-demand aspects of crafting? An example I could think of would be: If you want a piece of equipment with cooldown specialisation, you have to go to one crafter. For defence you go to another. For damage you go to another. Etc. Combine that with not every artisan being a crafter, and you enforce nieches very effortlessly. (The downside being that people will spam alts like crazy, but as you probably know, I would consider that those people's problem to fix within themselves.)

Azherae

Laetitian wrote: »

In Ashes this is worse because no Fast Travel. I'm not sure who in this age still believes that geographical distance can create gameplay niches by itself (not even meant to imply that the Intrepid team believes this) but since we know it doesn't, it shouldn't be surprising to us that when the game doesn't have its Niches in yet, 'everyone goes to Carphin'.

Can you summarise what you would propose as a solution to this, based on your preferred applicable systems?

My guess would be something like "you can only mine/process/craft these types of goods in these select areas that aren't Carphin, therefore those areas become known hubs for those types of goods."

Or perhaps by tying certain qualifications to individual, highly specialised, players? Where no one can specialise into everything that's in demand, or even a tenth of all the in-demand aspects of crafting? An example I could think of would be: If you want a piece of equipment with cooldown specialisation, you have to go to one crafter. For defence you go to another. For damage you go to another. Etc. Combine that with not every artisan being a crafter, and you enforce nieches very effortlessly. (The downside being that people will spam alts like crazy, but as you probably know, I would consider that those people's problem to fix within themselves.)

Sure.

Summary Solution:
Make it so that builds matter, low levels and casual players matter, rushing to Adventuring endgame isn't 'most optimal by a mile'. And most importantly for what the Econ team would actually need to do - don't rely on other systems to act as consistent sources of player behaviour.

There's a difference between 'I need people to care about Content Type X or they won't care about Econ Micro Slot A' and 'This is probably an Econ flaw/Missing Micro-slot, but it's fine because Content Type Y will make players behave in a way that negates the flaw'.

The Rest/My Ramblings:
First point is that I don't believe that niches should be solved on the 'supply' side, I believe they should only ever be solved on the 'demand' side for long-term game health. This is a personal opinion, all my data to back this up is anecdotal and extremely biased. That's not relative to my preferences, preference would be 'I don't like games that do it on the supply side', my opinion is that games that do it on the supply side fail at it.

Second point that follows from the first is therefore that it isn't a problem for the Econ team to be solving mainly at all (and therefore it's fine for it to not be working at this stage). I'd focus entirely on 'not making the mistakes', while the other systems with their incentives are worked out.

I believe it was best showcased by a reaction in the main thread:
"I might not get all the gear drops I want even if I grind, I might get 3 of the same thing."

It would be, in my mind, a rookie mistake to take that and roll with it, in any game. I forget the post I made about it, but the whole '3x of one drop' is a problem to solve (in different ways for different games), but not a thing that strongly drives change in economic actors.

For that, you need Micro-slots, which are game-specific. I will probably still write yet another essay on the FF11 version of those for comparison/for anyone who cares and doesn't already understand what I mean by those, but because they're game-specific, I figure they wouldn't be all that helpful even if I brought them up in 'Reference' terms.

unknown

This content has been removed.

Azherae

Alright, onward to Micro-slots. This will be messier. The terms are ofc mine, the 'concepts' are not.

See the list of supply-side things below:
Fruit, Inedible Fish, Edible Fish, Jewelry/mechanical 'metal' (can be stone), restorative herbs, debilitating herbs, food herbs, food mushrooms, medicinal mushrooms, decorative wood, structural wood, ceramic/pottery stone, structural stone, wild fiber, grown fiber, wild sinew, grown sinew, scales, fangs/claws, skin/hide, cultivated vegetables, weapon metal, enchanting metal, enchanting reagent, ichors, liquors, random animal organs, edible meat, dairy product, tree/vegetable oil product, grains, dyes, fertilizer, glue, sugar source.

There are nearly no popular Fantasy games with Crafting/Artisanship that don't have most if not all of these. Civilization Games usually have most of them (as Amenities or similar, but they're still there for very similar reasons).

Some attempt to squash them together, players often mod them back in. These are not, by themselves, 'Micro-Slots'.

A Supply Side Micro-slot is 'the form of the above that fits into the Macro-Slot mentioned before' (Progression side). All I have to say about that is that players in my experience seem to prefer that areas are distinguished moreso by lacking a few from the list while sometimes having variants that aren't actually in a different Macro-Slot.

This is related to Micro-Slot incentives:
Having one node be the only node with Medicinal Mushrooms - Bad
Having one node be the only node without any of a somewhat common (think Progression Slot 3) mushroom - Okay
Having a few nodes/biomes semi-realistically lacking most mushrooms in the usual abundance, sometimes altogether - Good.

Demand Side Micro-slots are entirely game dependent down to a specific 'floor', and that floor differs by player, I think. Obviously Adventurers who don't care about Artisanship even being in the game will accept a very low floor, and dedicated Artisans will demand a high one. The skill is obviously in balancing these two things.

For a game made of Nodes, or that is 'supposed to have differences in biomes', hundreds of items 'must' be generated. Some biomes can have overlap in their Grain, for example, and certainly metals, but if you try it with say, Fruit, players I know tune out pretty fast. This isn't a problem, it's mostly unnecessary to 'create less items'. The important thing is to create a comfortable number of Micro-slots (I want to say 'minimum' but that would be easy to misinterpret).

Some FF11 examples (AdvP is 'adventurer Progression, CuC is Currency Consumption, etc):
ArtP1-Wild_Fiber -> Moko Grass, used to make Grass Thread
AdvC3-Reagent -> Slime Oil, used with Beeswax to make Silent Oil.

But Beeswax is actually also ArtP1-Reagent, and drops from bees/wasps throughout the game. Is this sensible? Only sortof, but it's sensible enough for players who don't want to do Artisanship. Slime Oil is ArtP3_Reagent, and as you'd expect, drops from Slimes, again, basically for the entire game.

FF11 has many instances of 'combine ArtP3x1 with ArtP1x3' to make an output item, and combines this with a separation between the two sources. Slimes live in Caves, Bees live elsewhere. The Artisan would need to collect these separately, or consider buying them from adventurers.

Darksteel Ingot - 1 Darksteel Ore, 3 Iron Ore
Velvet Cloth - 1 Silk Thread, 2 Wool (or Cotton) threads
X-Potion - Distilled Water, Reishi Mushroom, Hecteyes Eye, Sage x2

The key cost generated here is 'time', which tends to lead to 'trade'. But it can be used the other way, to control 'rarity'. Darksteel Ore and Iron Ore are often found in the same place, but doing it this way allows Darksteel to be much rarer without automatic frustration. Similarly, for things that drop from mobs, the easy answer FF11 uses is to control the danger level or number of mobs, so that you can find roughly the same number of slimes for each 'level bracket', but they perhaps become easier to find and/or harder to kill. Tradeoffs (there's also the 'more available but only under conditions', which would obv suit PvX more).

The main point of this post therefore is to be able to reference 'the idea that Intrepid will probably make hundreds of items even if there is overlap, but that won't necessarily be a nightmare'. The main difference I see is that they are more likely to need to do them pre-launch rather than as expansions, and that they probably need a lot more 'duplicates'.

By Duplicates I refer to the idea that in FF11, for example:
ArtP1-Wild_Fiber is Moko Grass, ArtP2-Wild_Fiber is Cotton, ArtP3-Wild_Fiber is Flax, ArtP4-Wild_Fiber is Wool, and ArtP5-Wild_Fiber is Silk. There are no duplicates. Each is just 'better' than the previous. This is dealt with by the aforementioned '1 of these, more of the others below' to keep the interconnectivity.

Ashes might not be in as much of a position to do this, and might need to make two separate ArtP(n)-Wild_Fiber for different Biomes, equating Flax and Cotton, for example, and/or Wool and Silk, by biome. But the question of 'can you make an ArtC3-Tier Robe?' is still answered whether you are in Biome A or B, you just make the robe out of the ArtP3-Wild_Fiber available to you, and if you don't like the properties of it, import some.

Specialty items that can 'only use Wool' come after that, and they can put those "out of Adventurers' way". A pure adventurer doesn't have to care about the fact that they 'can't' make Curtains/Tablecloths (ArtC2-Fabric_Decor) out of Wool, and they will probably shrug off the fact that Cotton Socks have no Cold Resistance compared to Flax or similar. It lets them ease into the idea of caring, and lets the Artisans in their area provide their immediate needs.

I still mainly couldn't keep this short, but now it's at least here so I can 'complain that Miraleth doesn't have ArtC3_Furniture despite being full of ArtP3-Decorative_Wood' in a way that makes it easier to ask if it is intentional. Or more likely the opposite, if the game is heavily about Caravans and trade, being able to point out 'this Node will end up superior on every server for Stoneworking because y'all actually put every ArtP3-Structural_Stone here right next to AdvP3-Meat which is used to make ArtC3-Mason_Boost_Food, and no other Node comes close to this optimization level'.

If I color this mess, then it will just be a colorful mess.

lamina5432

Neat post very thorough if a little heavy in concept, so pardon my understanding if I'm off on what I'm asking. Given we are getting a bit more of a full idea on what the current artisan system is like I'm interested in three things using your references. This is also based on what we are seeing in the current PTR recipe changes.

One is what do you think the best way to handle the gear in game right now, since they seem to want some gear drops but as you mentioned demand is something needed to make the market go round and with it even being a possibility I don't know if players will stop charging forward to interact with other players systems i.e. artisans.

Second is the thought on how to use common T1 mats function in the market. You mentioned that slimes had a common drop that was used at higher level crafting when combined with other T3 mats. Ashes seems to be confused IMO on how to do this with a recent change being JM low tier gear using all T1 mats just more. I don't think ashes is on the right track this way wanted to ask your opinion on the matter.

Last is the common interaction between adventure players, currency players and artisans in ashes seems very disparate. Like you mentioned adventure players don't want to think about other stuff that deeply and ashes needs more interaction this way. Most of the time if an an adventure wants something they have to gather it themselves kind of cutting out the currency type player's chance to shine. Artisans also barely have any good interaction with the market right now outside consumables. This might be fixed later with more systems to smooth it but the whole of the different type of gameplay seem to need a little more minor interaction.

Just wanted some thoughts on these using your reference.

Azherae

I had to think a bit about how to answer while staying in the general concept of a Reference post. So I'll answer you using questions. Questions that run through my head every time I see what I think is wonky Econ design. Assume that all the questions are 'targeted at Intrepid/MMO Devs in general'. Disclaimers in red.

1. Why don't y'all focus a larger amount of gear progression on things like augmented abilities to keep the stat spread as tight as possible?
a) Can't do it/don't have the skill or tech (FF11, most older games)
b) Value or believe most players value the feeling of getting higher numbers more than builds (WoW, themeparks)
c) Can't figure out how to make the economy work with so many complex incentives, or prefer timesink enhancing grinds (BDO, other Korean P2W, arguably Alpha-2 P2)
d) Feel that rewarding players with higher time dedication is required for retention (arguably Throne and Liberty, but not really clear)

I don't think MMORPGs need to entirely avoid 'number go up' but that PvP MMOs should avoid it whenever they reasonably can.

2. Given the way MMO gear drops generally need to be designed, why don't you use lesser gear as enhancement materials for more powerful gear directly in some way?
a) Going with the approach of absolute dedication to a different Econ type such as 'heavy use of consumables' and/or really want Adventure-focused players to have the option to just always move forward (FF11, WoW, other PvE games)
b) Unwilling or unable to design the open world/mobs/ecology with a generally flatter power curve to support this (Throne and Liberty)
c) Absolute dedication to forcing Adventurers to rely on Crafters/crafting, or unnecessary due to powerful gear-sinks (most Sandbox games, early New World sorta)
d) Just don't believe that gear drops need to be implemented such that even leveling players can get progression gear once or twice per hour of serious play (BDO, a few others)

I think the genre is kinda only now experimenting with how best to handle this new paradigm, so I'm biased toward the success type I see in TL.

3. Why not just make use of more materials from multiple tiers and spread out their availability more to solve the issue of invalidation of old content/Macro Slots?
a) Trying to avoid complexity due to the audience type that you believe your game attracts, or not having the design experience to know which things to put where even if you wanted to (Throne and Liberty somewhat, maybe Alpha P2.5 and apparently P3?)
b) Unwilling or unable to design workable sources and ecology due to the setting of the world or other design constraints (FF14 sorta, most failed, or even not-entirely-failed short lived UE4 era MMOs)
c) Want or need to keep stratification of players based on investment level and time, and/or strongly believe that Artisanship needs to be a long and arduous path of dedication (FF11 result, intended or not, for the crafts where this approach was less common)
d) Higher focus on instanced content and wanting to make sure to homogenize rewards as much as possible to avoid friction or complaints (various 'groupfinder' MMOs, certain times in WoW)

I'm super biased to think that 'suits' are the main reason this happens, I figure they devalue the the dev time involved because 'they can still get most of the money without doing this'.

4. Why avoid or limit robust economy options/opportunities for players to find niches where they excel and feel comfortable?
a) Fear of bots, abundance of caution regarding bots, alts, and other abuses (Throne and Liberty - this is moreso me desperately hoping that's their real reason)
b) Low or minimal incentive to offer players too much of this due to it being an easier way to get them to spend real money in the game Cash shop directly (BDO sorta, many other Korean MMOs)
c) Opposition to RMT or P2W elements to the point where the economy itself must be clamped/treated as a threat model instead of an important game aspect (nothing comes to mind directly but I'm sure most people know of a game like this)
d) Unwillingness to use arbitrary econ limiter clamps such as Labor, Energy, Contract Limits, etc to solve the soft versions of the 3 things above (Ashes of Creation)

I always worry/fear that games flinch at the idea of committing to a good deep economy because they often either rely on consumables (FF11), almost entirely fail to feel engaging because of design or ecology issues (BDO), or end up too exploitable (FF11 again, various bot-ridden MMOs).

I know that the above doesn't really 'answer your questions', that's because I really believe that Developers have to think about what their game can afford to do, sometimes those 'unpleasant options' above really are so important that they are valid answers.

So even if I really really want to see a game where low level gear 'has augments that can substitute for leveling up a skill, or offer a function that is seldom needed at higher levels... where when bandits drop Sheepskin Gloves with Accuracy +5 you can combine them into your own Reinforced Sheepskin Gloves and get that +5 Accuracy in a slot/trait like TL, where drops from older content are applied as materials to uncommon-but-still-useful higher level items, and where there are strong ecology niches and a carefully considered system for limiting the direct benefits of spending 9h a day grinding currency.

Oh wait I already almost have that game...

But that game is not Ashes of Creation, so for Ashes all I want is for them to have answers to those questions that most people accept. Because to me, in all arrogance, many of those answers are terrible, and 95% of 'answers I didn't write down' are also terrible.

I believe good devs can find ways to navigate most other problems, within their intended sub-genre, without constantly shrugging off requests for things to be better.

I want to believe that Intrepid has many good Devs. But as of now, the questions mostly still stand, and aside from the answer to question #4 being known to be 'D', I feel like we haven't received answers yet, so I'm just waiting and continuing to ask them.

Azherae

Alright well we're basically 3 weeks in and I don't even know where to begin so I'm putting my ranting in the ranting thread.

What are y'all even doing, Intrepid?

That's the sentiment my group has right now

Surely we missed the Discord/Reddit convo that explained why things are this way, right? Even if it's just the 'it felt better in-house' or 'data indicates most players are happy and engaged' so that those of us on forums who only see the complex negative responses know that those are the feedback minority.

I (personally) can't even say anything because I'm in that camp of 'people whose Alpha-1/Alpha-2 Phase I testing rig no longer can run Ashes for more than 8 minutes (and my more powerful desktop is well... no more available).

I don't want to judge stuff off just Ashes Codex and cherry-picked complaints on forums but they're really, really starting to look less 'cherry picked' and moreso 'corn as far as the eye can see'.

Please just do what y'all said you were going to do? If the person that knew how to do that is gone, and you need it explained, your forumers are explaining it, I'm not even the one saying anything now...

People who grind mobs are 'another type of Gatherer'. Let them be that. Let them go and get 'gatherables' from mobs. If you are worried that those will drop when people kill them, that is what Corruption is for.
If you're worried that they will locust forever, accept that you need to time-limit their Commissions.

Maybe I'm just biased, as a Processor, against this current 'yeah gathering is somewhat low cost but you need to fork over cash to progress'. It boosts engagement, maybe?

I don't want to have to spend my next 2 months desperately hoping that two games I love 'don't see how to let PvP/mob grinding adventurers just be gatherers' (yes, Throne and Liberty might get it right or fix it later, but they, at least, would have a somewhat flimsy and dissatisfying excuse for not fixing it, whereas y'all at Intrepid really do not).

Ugh this really is just another negative rant on the pile, a pile that already seems to be 'best not interacted with'. For that, I'm 'sorry', in the sense that I wish I could channel this energy more helpfully while still staying within your feedback guidelines, but as usual 'on behalf of my group'...

Please explain your vision here, because 'this ain't it'.

(EDIT: Also I'm serious about the 'Discord convo we missed' thing, if anyone has one/it, please provide it)

SmileGurney

Azherae wrote: »

(EDIT: Also I'm serious about the 'Discord convo we missed' thing, if anyone has one/it, please provide it)

You have possibly missed it. After the last rollback we have a little Occupy Ashes Discord moment, when a lot of NA and EU players almost crashed the official Discord and joined to chat for hours about how they feel about the state of the game, economy, and what many perceive as lack of care when introducing changes to the game (which is why rollback had to happen).

What I found funny is that even representatives of hardcore guilds like POLAR and AURA, and whoever else was speaking there were quite dismayed by the state of the economy, and required time, resource and gold investment to craft anything.

Few Intrepid representatives quietly joined and listen in, and then Intrepid has seemingly disregarded weeks of negative player feedback in the most recent patch. They are basically doubling down on brainless grind, broken char/world progression and an economy model which has massive inflation issues build into it.

Don't worry guys, we are going to focus on testing the economy in Phase 2

Azherae

SmileGurney wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

(EDIT: Also I'm serious about the 'Discord convo we missed' thing, if anyone has one/it, please provide it)

You have possibly missed it. After the last rollback we have a little Occupy Ashes Discord moment, when a lot of NA and EU players almost crashed the official Discord and joined to chat for hours about how they feel about the state of the game, economy, and what many perceive as lack of care when introducing changes to the game (which is why rollback had to happen).

What I found funny is that even representatives of hardcore guilds like POLAR and AURA, and whoever else was speaking there were quite dismayed by the state of the economy, and required time, resource and gold investment to craft anything.

Few Intrepid representatives quietly joined and listen in, and then Intrepid has seemingly disregarded weeks of negative player feedback in the most recent patch. They are basically doubling down on brainless grind, broken char/world progression and an economy model which has massive inflation issues build into it.

Don't worry guys, we are going to focus on testing the economy in Phase 2

So, Intrepid didn't 'respond', per se? I'm not saying they have to, I'm just confused.

My heart goes out to whoever is in there fighting for us/the playerbase/the community, I believe I can actually imagine what it feels like to be trying to get things to change from the inside and getting shot down or getting the 'ok we'll work on it but we're not making any official statement' responses.

So if you're in there, whoever you are, Intrepid advocate-for-the-aggrieved, hang on for us.

SmileGurney

There was no official response to the community concerns regarding what I can only describe as brainless levels of grind and RNG. Give me player agency any day over this.

If anything the last patch lowered the drops in POIs, without addressing the crazy costs of crafting (and in case of the EU server lack of access to crafting stations).

This is certainly a way to ruin play(test)er retention stats.

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