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Alpha Two testing is currently taking place five days each week. More information about Phase II and Phase III testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
FEEDBACK: Auto-Attacks, Weapon Influences
lancehavenbay
Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
Summary:
Auto Attacks are interrupted by skill use and combo chains do not continue if stopped for any reason. Weapons do not compliment one another, nor do they provide distinct playstyles. This can be resolved by allowing a grace period during combo attacks in which a player is able to resume the combo if started again in a short period of time. Build variety and viability can be dramatically increased by allowing weapon skill-trees to interact with each other, and by having weapon types carry distinct passive differences that differentiate them. This would enhance the decision-making process when selecting weapons and increase the overall gameplay experience.
Basic Attack Improvement:
Current Issue: Performing any action or skill currently interrupts the basic attack combo chain.
-Suggestion: Allow players to continue their auto-attack combo from where they left off if resumed within a short timeframe (e.g., 5 seconds). This change would enhance gameplay fluidity, enabling players to effectively chase and hit foes without needing to stop for extended periods to reset combos in hopes of landing a Finisher or Extended Finisher. This would be especially useful for melee characters entrenched in combat, even when skills are on cooldown - or for players that prefer utilizing auto attacks as a primary damage source.
Weapon Distinctiveness:
Current Issue: Weapons lack distinct differences beyond the top of the skill tree.
-Suggestion: Introduce inherent passives for each weapon. For example, make the Mace have increased attack penetration by default, eliminating the need for skill investments to enhance core traits. Allow instead the ability to improve upon this/other enhancements to weapons, such as increasing attack speed or accuracy on a sword directly via the skill tree.
Complementary Weapon Systems:
-Suggestion: Allow primary and secondary weapons to augment each other. For instance, if a player wields a Wand or Spellbook, bonuses like Finisher Damage would apply to melee attacks from the first weapon slot as well. This would foster greater build variety and encourage players to utilize basic attacks as a viable method, instead of solely relying on skill cooldowns.
Skill Investments:
-Idea: Allow players to allocate a limited number of points that enhance either a skill OR a basic attack skill tree. For players who favor combos over skills, this would reward time spent on target and make basic attacks more competitive relative to just spamming skills.
In order to make weapon functions more clear, there needs to be a clear distinction for the purpose of each weapon type. Based on the current model in game, this is the proposed breakdown for each weapon archetype:
Proposed Item Types and Functions
Categories:
-Damage
-Sustain
-Attack/Cast Speed
-Power Rating
-Critical Strike
-Debuff
-STAT Increase
Weapon Specifics
Mace: Physical Damage: Penetration and stronger basic combos/finishers.
Spellmace: Magic Damage: Magic Penetration and stronger basic combos/finishers
Scepter: Magic Sustain: Mana Regen and large base WIS/MEN Increase.
Energy Scepter: Physical Sustain: Mana Regen and large base STR/CON Increase
Sword: Physical Attack Speed/Accuracy: Improved attack speed and accuracy.
Spellsword: Magic Cast Speed/Accuracy: Enhanced cast speed and accuracy.
Greatsword: Physical Power: Attack speed and power rating scale.
Spell Greatsword: Magic Power/Cast: Cast speed and magic power rating.
Daggers:Physical Attack Speed/Crit: Enhanced attack speed and crit rating.
Spell Daggers: Magic Cast Speed/Crit: Improved cast speed and crit rating.
Wand:Magic Cast Speed/Debuff: Increased cast speed and debuff effectiveness.
Energy Wand: Physical Attack Speed/Debuff: Increased attack speed and debuff effectiveness.
Spellbook:Magic Stats: Passive magic power rating and large base INT/MEN Increase.
Energy Spellbook: Physical Stats: Passive power rating and large base STR/CON Increase.
Longbow: Physical Stats: Passive power rating and large Strength/Dexterity Increase.
Spell Longbow: Magic Stats: Power rating and large Intelligence/Wisdom Increase.
Shortbow: Physical Attack Speed/Crit: Passive attack speed and crit rating.
Spell Shortbow: Magic Cast Speed/Crit: Enhanced cast speed and crit rating.
Additional Suggestion: Consider adding a second shield type or a hybrid variant to broaden defensive options.
Shield: Physical Defense: Armor with CON + MEN Increase.
Spell Shield: Magic Defense: Magic resist with CON + MEN Increase
Additional Suggestion: Allow us to wield melee weapons in EITHER slot, or ranged weapons in EITHER slow. Even if that means two melee or two ranged weapons.
Skill Tree Combination Examples
Mace + Wand: Resulting in Penetration and Finisher Damage.
Sword + Shortbow: Resulting in Accuracy and Crit bonuses.
Energy Scepter + Energy Spellbook: Resulting in Mana Regen and a large stat increase for physical characters.
Scepter + Spellbook: Resulting in Mana Regen and a large stat increase for magical characters.
By implementing these suggestions, we can improve gameplay dynamics and encourage greater player creativity in character builds, while still adhering to the current weapon style and functionality.
Auto Attacks are interrupted by skill use and combo chains do not continue if stopped for any reason. Weapons do not compliment one another, nor do they provide distinct playstyles. This can be resolved by allowing a grace period during combo attacks in which a player is able to resume the combo if started again in a short period of time. Build variety and viability can be dramatically increased by allowing weapon skill-trees to interact with each other, and by having weapon types carry distinct passive differences that differentiate them. This would enhance the decision-making process when selecting weapons and increase the overall gameplay experience.
Basic Attack Improvement:
Current Issue: Performing any action or skill currently interrupts the basic attack combo chain.
-Suggestion: Allow players to continue their auto-attack combo from where they left off if resumed within a short timeframe (e.g., 5 seconds). This change would enhance gameplay fluidity, enabling players to effectively chase and hit foes without needing to stop for extended periods to reset combos in hopes of landing a Finisher or Extended Finisher. This would be especially useful for melee characters entrenched in combat, even when skills are on cooldown - or for players that prefer utilizing auto attacks as a primary damage source.
Weapon Distinctiveness:
Current Issue: Weapons lack distinct differences beyond the top of the skill tree.
-Suggestion: Introduce inherent passives for each weapon. For example, make the Mace have increased attack penetration by default, eliminating the need for skill investments to enhance core traits. Allow instead the ability to improve upon this/other enhancements to weapons, such as increasing attack speed or accuracy on a sword directly via the skill tree.
Complementary Weapon Systems:
-Suggestion: Allow primary and secondary weapons to augment each other. For instance, if a player wields a Wand or Spellbook, bonuses like Finisher Damage would apply to melee attacks from the first weapon slot as well. This would foster greater build variety and encourage players to utilize basic attacks as a viable method, instead of solely relying on skill cooldowns.
Skill Investments:
-Idea: Allow players to allocate a limited number of points that enhance either a skill OR a basic attack skill tree. For players who favor combos over skills, this would reward time spent on target and make basic attacks more competitive relative to just spamming skills.
In order to make weapon functions more clear, there needs to be a clear distinction for the purpose of each weapon type. Based on the current model in game, this is the proposed breakdown for each weapon archetype:
Proposed Item Types and Functions
Categories:
-Damage
-Sustain
-Attack/Cast Speed
-Power Rating
-Critical Strike
-Debuff
-STAT Increase
Weapon Specifics
Mace: Physical Damage: Penetration and stronger basic combos/finishers.
Spellmace: Magic Damage: Magic Penetration and stronger basic combos/finishers
Scepter: Magic Sustain: Mana Regen and large base WIS/MEN Increase.
Energy Scepter: Physical Sustain: Mana Regen and large base STR/CON Increase
Sword: Physical Attack Speed/Accuracy: Improved attack speed and accuracy.
Spellsword: Magic Cast Speed/Accuracy: Enhanced cast speed and accuracy.
Greatsword: Physical Power: Attack speed and power rating scale.
Spell Greatsword: Magic Power/Cast: Cast speed and magic power rating.
Daggers:Physical Attack Speed/Crit: Enhanced attack speed and crit rating.
Spell Daggers: Magic Cast Speed/Crit: Improved cast speed and crit rating.
Wand:Magic Cast Speed/Debuff: Increased cast speed and debuff effectiveness.
Energy Wand: Physical Attack Speed/Debuff: Increased attack speed and debuff effectiveness.
Spellbook:Magic Stats: Passive magic power rating and large base INT/MEN Increase.
Energy Spellbook: Physical Stats: Passive power rating and large base STR/CON Increase.
Longbow: Physical Stats: Passive power rating and large Strength/Dexterity Increase.
Spell Longbow: Magic Stats: Power rating and large Intelligence/Wisdom Increase.
Shortbow: Physical Attack Speed/Crit: Passive attack speed and crit rating.
Spell Shortbow: Magic Cast Speed/Crit: Enhanced cast speed and crit rating.
Additional Suggestion: Consider adding a second shield type or a hybrid variant to broaden defensive options.
Shield: Physical Defense: Armor with CON + MEN Increase.
Spell Shield: Magic Defense: Magic resist with CON + MEN Increase
Additional Suggestion: Allow us to wield melee weapons in EITHER slot, or ranged weapons in EITHER slow. Even if that means two melee or two ranged weapons.
Skill Tree Combination Examples
Mace + Wand: Resulting in Penetration and Finisher Damage.
Sword + Shortbow: Resulting in Accuracy and Crit bonuses.
Energy Scepter + Energy Spellbook: Resulting in Mana Regen and a large stat increase for physical characters.
Scepter + Spellbook: Resulting in Mana Regen and a large stat increase for magical characters.
By implementing these suggestions, we can improve gameplay dynamics and encourage greater player creativity in character builds, while still adhering to the current weapon style and functionality.
7
Comments
Another problem is skill use doesn't prioritize them over weapon attacks and doesn't cancel the weapon attack animation when you press a skill, making the gameplay feel unresponsive.
Would be nice if other classes also had abilities that would not interrupt the weapon chain, but i think some abilities should interrupt it and add some benefits to doing different parts of the weapon combo and not just finishers.
This way it would make you think if you want to interrupt or continue the weapon chain for different benefits.
I do think 5 sec between auto-attack would feel to long but I wouldn't mind a little bit of something like that. Mainly so instant cast spells wouldn't generally interrupt the auto-attack combo.
Another thing I think about when seeing the current trees is that all of them are based on the auto-attack. I lean towards the idea that some should have a choice to enhance skills in a passive enhancement way. You could do something like add an AOE for the spellbook on a single target ability every 30 seconds or something. You could even do something like add a negative in one spot to have a positive in another like for the longbow have a add a cooldown of 5 seconds but up the range and damage on an ability.
I think there is a lot of play Intrepid hasn't done with the skill trees in general and I think weapon skill trees are the most apparent.
This one can be slightly more difficult to encode than you might think at first, so it may take some time to add even if they do it. But long ago in Alpha-1, this was how it worked for a while.
Anyway, on to channeling my group's thoughts on this, with minimal mentions of TL or TP gauges!
AoC's Archetypes and stat formulae are designed in a way that we think will diminish weapon trees no matter what you do (not expanding on this, see previous line).
There just aren't enough effects to go around that don't take up the same slots as Archetype skills. This is a weird thing to say as someone who loves MOBA itemization, but I'd say the problem comes in the game style. AoC isn't really about 'hitting things with your weapon' a lot of the time, even with the TTK change. I don't mean that it can't be, but moreso that the way they've chosen abilities to work, very 'independently' of weapon, means that unless they start making playstyles where the Archetype skills feed into the weapon itself in some way (affecting parameters of auto-attacking or finishers a lot), the thing you care about is the strength of the skills you will use.
But this is a balance tightrope in every other game I've played. The attack speed/attack delay of weapons is tied directly to how everything about the combat works. And if one starts adding stat-lines to weapons while also having Finishers on them but not tying them to Archetypes, it creates the sort of swingy itemization meta that usually requires MOBA level telemetry outputs to even start working on.
There wouldn't be a reason to engage with it if it was changed to what OP suggests, basically. It would fall squarely between 'games we actually like the combat/weapons systems of' and 'games some of us quit and most of us were never willing to seriously play'.
Also, OP left out Spears and Staves. I'm not going to go into that too much but I will say that you can often judge a game's combat system based on how well it handles or fails to handle those, so a suggestion that leaves them out even incidentally can't inspire confidence for us.
It's pretty odd you say a post doesn't inspire confidence because it doesn't mention items that are NOT even in the game right now. Items in the game, are what was listed. So that's a pretty asinine assertion in and of itself. It's actually pretty insulting that you try to discredit a post entirely because of something so trivial.
Additionally, attack speed does not affect skill cooldown, so it's a pretty straightforward path to make auto attacks viable. More attacks in a shorter amount of time, in addition to the already present 150% crit multiplier. It's relatively simple math. If a crit is 150% multiplier, then a 70% auto attack crit, (175%dmg) would outpace a 30 second cooldown on a 175% dmg skill. The only difference is that the player would need to remain on target longer.
The only modification that would need to be done to make auto attacks more viable would be a light 10-20% increase on combo swing damage. Because crit would double it and increase the sustain to a competitive rate.
To make them sustain better, combing continuation, which was already in this post -would be the only other thing needed. But that's all detailed in this post. Your reply really leaves a lot in the air for no reason.
Could you give me an example of a game where this works as described, even tangentially?
My experiences all imply the opposite.
As for the 'trivial' thing, it was meant to be a support of my other point. There are not enough different functions you can assign to weapons in the current design space. It wasn't 'just' a dig at you or your idea directly or your lack of providing things for those weapons.
Please go ahead and add literally anything that those two weapons could have, that doesn't overlap with what you mentioned for others, if you are still interested in engaging with me. If not, I understand.