Crafting - are you kidding me?

The state of crafting is atrocious! Been trying to craft novice gear such as axe and pick and need copper. No copper to be found - the forums are full of posts about the lack of it. But yet months have passed and nothing fixed/changed. No new spawns for change of availability. Ok, so I give in and I buy some copper from the marketplace. Now I need to break it down to fragments. One copper = 1 fragment? WTF? If I have a piece of copper and make fragments out of it shouldn't there be multiple fragments? Nope. One fragment. Ok, I'm about done with this whole shit crafting system. I had high hopes for AoC crafting but the current state is absolutely stupid. Please tell me that this system is a placeholder for something better?

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Azherae

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

What is the problem with slowing down everything and just enjoying the game?

PvP.

elcommendante

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

In my opinion the reason new MMOs do well for a month and fall off is because progression is so fast. There is no value is something that doesn’t take effort. You get max lvl instantly and then you are stuck with an end game that is typically designed to do the same thing over and over with no change. What is the problem with slowing down everything and just enjoying the game. You get better at your class, you make new friends “if you really want” among many other things. With that being said, I do believe you should be able to put in 3-6 hours and feel like you are moving forward. I think they can finds ways to give you a sense of progression without making it much faster.

In a sense I agree, there should be balance. A great example of games that have this balance and full-player driven economies are EVE and Albion. These games have abundance of resources for crafting, they give you good feeling about progression, where you have to collect a quite a bit of resource to build/craft something but to achieve better things you have to build more of this stuff which you can either sell or use your-self. On top of that these games have great destruction loops, where in EVE you have ship destruction at massive scale and in Albion death item drops, these destruction loops balance the economy.

The idea here is that you have abundance of resources, you can do it crafting all day without stopping and don't get me wrong, you are not conquering the world doing so and crashing the economy. There is liquidity, there is supply and demand, there is fierce competition.

Where right now you can't find a fuking rock to do mining pick for yourself xd.

Most of these MMO's that I think you mention did not failed directly because of fast progression but they failed mostly because of lack of content after reaching maximum level and slow content updates compared to initial progression like you have also mentioned. Eg. New World, Tera, Blade and Soul. What would be ideal is balanced progression towards max level and then fine tuning through gear upgrades, legendary collectible items, crafting, exploration, housing, wars, pvp, farming you name it.

You just can't make people manufacture simple tools for 5 hours straight and still not getting there, this is neither balance neither enjoyable. This is definitely not effort that brings value, this is madness.

ShaggyRyn

Azherae wrote: »

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

What is the problem with slowing down everything and just enjoying the game?

PvP.

I get that hardcore players have an advantage here if things take longer but so what…. Everyone doesn’t get a trophy. If you want to be the best you have to put in the work.

elcommendante

Azherae wrote: »

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

What is the problem with slowing down everything and just enjoying the game?

PvP.

PVP don’t block your path of progression; It paves it—with your bones as cobblestones.

ShaggyRyn

elcommendante wrote: »

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

In my opinion the reason new MMOs do well for a month and fall off is because progression is so fast. There is no value is something that doesn’t take effort. You get max lvl instantly and then you are stuck with an end game that is typically designed to do the same thing over and over with no change. What is the problem with slowing down everything and just enjoying the game. You get better at your class, you make new friends “if you really want” among many other things. With that being said, I do believe you should be able to put in 3-6 hours and feel like you are moving forward. I think they can finds ways to give you a sense of progression without making it much faster.

In a sense I agree, there should be balance. A great example of games that have this balance and full-player driven economies are EVE and Albion. These games have abundance of resources for crafting, they give you good feeling about progression, where you have to collect a quite a bit of resource to build/craft something but to achieve better things you have to build more of this stuff which you can either sell or use your-self. On top of that these games have great destruction loops, where in EVE you have ship destruction at massive scale and in Albion death item drops, these destruction loops balance the economy.

The idea here is that you have abundance of resources, you can do it crafting all day without stopping and don't get me wrong, you are not conquering the world doing so and crashing the economy. There is liquidity, there is supply and demand, there is fierce competition.

Where right now you can't find a fuking rock to do mining pick for yourself xd.

Most of these MMO's that I think you mention did not failed directly because of fast progression but they failed mostly because of lack of content after reaching maximum level and slow content updates compared to initial progression like you have also mentioned. Eg. New World, Tera, Blade and Soul. What would be ideal is balanced progression towards max level and then fine tuning through gear upgrades, legendary collectible items, crafting, exploration, housing, wars, pvp, farming you name it.

You just can't make people manufacture simple tools for 5 hours straight and still not getting there, this is neither balance neither enjoyable. This is definitely not effort that brings value, this is madness.

To me the solution is more low level mats that are used throughout the crafting journey and less high mats that you get really excited when you find them.

Azherae

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

What is the problem with slowing down everything and just enjoying the game?

PvP.

I get that hardcore players have an advantage here if things take longer but so what…. Everyone doesn’t get a trophy. If you want to be the best you have to put in the work.

What do you get, though? If you don't get ahead in PvP in Ashes, what can you actually 'have'?

ShaggyRyn

Azherae wrote: »

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

What is the problem with slowing down everything and just enjoying the game?

PvP.

I get that hardcore players have an advantage here if things take longer but so what…. Everyone doesn’t get a trophy. If you want to be the best you have to put in the work.

What do you get, though? If you don't get ahead in PvP in Ashes, what can you actually 'have'?

Well I think the world will be big enough where you will be able to find your little slice if you want. Also I don’t truly believe that if you are slightly behind means you can’t compete at all.

Azherae

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

What is the problem with slowing down everything and just enjoying the game?

PvP.

I get that hardcore players have an advantage here if things take longer but so what…. Everyone doesn’t get a trophy. If you want to be the best you have to put in the work.

What do you get, though? If you don't get ahead in PvP in Ashes, what can you actually 'have'?

Well I think the world will be big enough where you will be able to find your little slice if you want. Also I don’t truly believe that if you are slightly behind means you can’t compete at all.

That's what makes you able to have fun and slow down and enjoy the game.

For those who can't compete when they're behind, the reality is different, and that's why they refuse to slow down.

EDIT: Clarifying to stay on topic, we're talking about crafting, and incentives, in my mind.

If crafting doesn't help in PvP in a game where you are always subject to PvP and often can't interact with entire systems if you're being suppressed in PvP, then it's harder to enjoy crafting.

If Crafting helps in PvP, but only when you have crafted more than your oppressor, then your options are either 'push to keep up with that oppressor' or 'do something else that helps with that', since, if you can't keep up in Crafting, you probably shouldn't pump hours into it to only get to 50-60% of whatever they have.

Since the PvE doesn't really require the Crafting, or if it does, it's probably being controlled by those who PvP better, the Crafter doesn't have any reason to go slowly. They have an incentive to find a guild of players who will push them to the top of Crafting quickly.

ShaggyRyn

Azherae wrote: »

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

What is the problem with slowing down everything and just enjoying the game?

PvP.

I get that hardcore players have an advantage here if things take longer but so what…. Everyone doesn’t get a trophy. If you want to be the best you have to put in the work.

What do you get, though? If you don't get ahead in PvP in Ashes, what can you actually 'have'?

Well I think the world will be big enough where you will be able to find your little slice if you want. Also I don’t truly believe that if you are slightly behind means you can’t compete at all.

That's what makes you able to have fun and slow down and enjoy the game.

For those who can't compete when they're behind, the reality is different, and that's why they refuse to slow down.

Ya in a way this can be true. It will be hard to balance that but what is the solution? A game that is too easy/fast is boring. There is no value in those things. Again, the only things worth anything are hard to obtain.

Azherae

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

What is the problem with slowing down everything and just enjoying the game?

PvP.

I get that hardcore players have an advantage here if things take longer but so what…. Everyone doesn’t get a trophy. If you want to be the best you have to put in the work.

What do you get, though? If you don't get ahead in PvP in Ashes, what can you actually 'have'?

Well I think the world will be big enough where you will be able to find your little slice if you want. Also I don’t truly believe that if you are slightly behind means you can’t compete at all.

That's what makes you able to have fun and slow down and enjoy the game.

For those who can't compete when they're behind, the reality is different, and that's why they refuse to slow down.

Ya in a way this can be true. It will be hard to balance that but what is the solution? A game that is too easy/fast is boring. There is no value in those things. Again, the only things worth anything are hard to obtain.

I wouldn't say that fun being easy to obtain makes it lack value. Though there are some people that can only have fun when they are 'above' others and some that can only have fun when they are being constantly entertained with less challenge.

I'd say the solution is to not worry about those types of people as much if one is committing to having crafting in a game.

But the point of the recent threads has mostly been that the crafting itself isn't fun. And when the gameplay is generally 'gather/plan, then make thing', it's probably fair to say that if you don't get to actually plan, or only very occasionally get to actually make a thing, it's not very fun.

ShaggyRyn

Azherae wrote: »

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

ShaggyRyn wrote: »

What is the problem with slowing down everything and just enjoying the game?

PvP.

I get that hardcore players have an advantage here if things take longer but so what…. Everyone doesn’t get a trophy. If you want to be the best you have to put in the work.

What do you get, though? If you don't get ahead in PvP in Ashes, what can you actually 'have'?

Well I think the world will be big enough where you will be able to find your little slice if you want. Also I don’t truly believe that if you are slightly behind means you can’t compete at all.

That's what makes you able to have fun and slow down and enjoy the game.

For those who can't compete when they're behind, the reality is different, and that's why they refuse to slow down.

Ya in a way this can be true. It will be hard to balance that but what is the solution? A game that is too easy/fast is boring. There is no value in those things. Again, the only things worth anything are hard to obtain.

I wouldn't say that fun being easy to obtain makes it lack value. Though there are some people that can only have fun when they are 'above' others and some that can only have fun when they are being constantly entertained with less challenge.

I'd say the solution is to not worry about those types of people as much if one is committing to having crafting in a game.

But the point of the recent threads has mostly been that the crafting itself isn't fun. And when the gameplay is generally 'gather/plan, then make thing', it's probably fair to say that if you don't get to actually plan, or only very occasionally get to actually make a thing, it's not very fun.

I agree with this. I think most of this is because the current system is a place holder. I’m pretty sure there is supposed to be a “mini game” involved in processing and crafting. As far as gathering I think the dopamine rush comes from finding something that you don’t normally find other than that I’m not really sure how you make it more enjoyable.

Ludullu

elcommendante wrote: »

I thought AOC devs are after creating massive world with it's own economy. Then it can't be niche, because monster of this size will need to be feed with large quantity of players to be playable and economy to be sustainable and functional.

The node system will supposedly keep the world as alive as possible for those that ARE playing the game. The content will be around the places where people gather to do stuff and those players will influence said content in different ways.

There's of course the question of how successful all of that will be in practice, but it is a question for several years down the line, at this point.

elcommendante wrote: »

I wasn't talking about instant gratification in game, but c'mon mate grinding 5 hours for 20 copper(4 rocks mined) which is not enough for pick and axe that it's kind of ridiculous. This doesn't give you any impression of progression, you can still make things for longer run but more enjoyable.

And I totally agree that T1 mats should be way more abundant than they are now. But I still think that rarity of higher tiers should be fairly high, so the pace of progress will still be really low.

Though pylons might change a few things in that setup, so we'll have to see.

elcommendante wrote: »

In regards to masses never know what's best for them. It reminds me of communism a bit, where few run the show for the masses and I'm wondering where that worked out well. The prettiest girl is always chosen by the public in Miss competitions and to be honest never saw prettiest one being chosen by few judges. Bit belief in masses, they will be backbone running the show, paying the bills and without masses you will have an empty world full of few people who like to spend 40 hours a week running after few copper rocks, it will be full of players like Life Is Feudal: MMO is now. Too much time for gratification is also not good.

And yet stuff like pop music and the most popular media is usually the most basic, wide-appealing, simplest piece of content out there. Vanilla WoW was the easiest mmo of its time, which is why it got the audience that it had (well, and of course the backbone of Warcraft). Which then leads me to the next response.

elcommendante wrote: »

It's also about learning from history, what worked well and what not. Behind your back there is a cemetery of MMO's, would be wise not to repeat their mistakes.

How many of those failed mmos successfully attempted something different from "this is pretty much WoW, but with a slightly different visual"?

At scale, I think more WoW-likes have died in the past 20 years than niche mmos that tried to appeal to their own audiences. Stuff like Mortal Online is the nichest kind of shit out there, yet even that managed to make enough of a return on initial investment to justify a sequel. Albion and EVE are definitely on the nicher side of designs, yet both of them still live, with EVE always trying to make new spin-offs (which is of course its own set of issues) and Albion supposedly even growing over years (not w/o thx to its mobile availability of course).

Ashes simply needs to be good at what its promising. It then needs to stick to those promises, so that people who fell in love with it can spread the good word about a good game. And yes, as Noaani pointed out we've had quite a few design contradictions, especially since Jeff left. But I do think those can be ironed out through feedback, but w/o swinging too hard to WoW-like design directions.

And just to be clear here, I'm not saying that's what you're asking for, I'm simply speaking in generalities of the genre, because oooh boi there sure is a lot of people who ARE asking for exactly that.

elcommendante wrote: »

I would call it a quarter. Anyone from 0 to 23 year old will most likely won't be the bill paying backbone of the whole thing, and in the end of a day this is a business.

I'm not a young kid these days, so I wouldn't know their spending practices, but considering that gacha games (alongside roblox and fortnite), that are usually targeted at the youth make literal billions, I do think that younger audiences have at least $15 a month to spend on something they might find interesting.

And yes, I know that f2p monetization is all about preying on those kinds of people, so they might think that splurging $50 on BP skins is not as much as paying A WHOLE FIFTEEN DOLLARINOS on a game.

MargaretKrohn

Thanks so much for taking the time to share your thoughts. We truly value the level of detail and passion in this thread—it’s clear many of you care deeply about the crafting and gathering systems in Ashes of Creation, and that feedback is incredibly helpful to our ongoing development process.

As a reminder, Alpha Two remains a live testing phase. While many systems are still in progress or using placeholder implementations, the goal is to gather feedback like this to help us refine those systems over time. Crafting, resource availability, and the surrounding gameplay loops are all actively being evaluated—especially as more testers reach higher progression tiers and expose new pressure points.

We won’t always respond to every suggestion directly, but please know that your insights are being reviewed and discussed with the team. Feedback like yours plays a vital role in helping us shape a game that’s both immersive and rewarding.

Thanks again for being part of the testing journey—and for helping us make Verra stronger with every phase.

Ludullu

MargaretKrohn wrote: »

especially as more testers reach higher progression tiers and expose new pressure points.

The funny thing is, the main pressure point is right there at lvl0, in the form of copper/zinc/rubies/flax/etc

MargaretKrohn wrote: »

We won’t always respond to every suggestion directly, but please know that your insights are being reviewed and discussed with the team. Feedback like yours plays a vital role in helping us shape a game that’s both immersive and rewarding.

Once you're done with the game and release that development documentary - I better see tons of discussion behind the decision to change pvp event death penalties, cause I wanna know who it was that changed them from the super logical and great design of "only decay" to "this is now just normal penalties, even though people will be dying infinitely more times in the same frame of time".

Aszkalon

I am honest. I gave up to try and even "bother" trying to get from Novice- to Apprentice-Gear regarding i think it was the Pickaxe. That was still during the Spot-Tests, lol.

I just couldn't be bothered. I know i was struggling because of my Baloneybrain and because of the english Client when my Motherlanguage is german -> but i just couldn't put One and One together. I knew i would need a Guild because alone i couldn't figure it out.

This Game is indeed not for Casuals. And i am no longer the above-Casual Player i was once in the past. So right now i can only hope that at least "some" Contents get made easier for when the Game is finished in the future.

natsport

Whoever is in charge of crafting ideas should be fired. But fire them, and then they must wait 45 minutes to receive the firing. Like crafting. FAIL

Child Item